Miracle or Machine ?

[I AM ALL I AM]

G'day.

I recently watched a documentary that was from the History Channel, Ancient Discoveries: Machines of the Gods. It's an interesting documentary and well worth watching. I've posted the links below for anyone interested.

Heron of Alexandria is mentioned in the documentary as one of the creators of machines that temples used to convince followers of miracles from the respective god of that particular temple.

So I decided to see what I could find out about Heron of Alexandria. Here's a small part ...

Herons Books

- Automata (in Arabic Translation) (Greek: moving itself) (lat. De automatis). A collection of constructions called miracles (thaumata) for temples. Heron describes automatic rotating objectives, noise such as thunder, automatic opening doors. Philon from Byzanz describes the existence of automata in his book Mechaniki syntaxis, that includes pneumatic apparatus and automatic astronomical devices as early as 300 BC.

...

A automatic device that opens the temple door if a fire burns on a altar



http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HeronAlexandria.htm


... along with the 'miraculous' ability to turn water into wine ...


How to turn water into wine (and vice versa)

The amphora of Heron of Alexandria (fl. AD 62), the mathematician and inventor called o mechaniks, allows to pour either water or wine from the same vessel. The amphora is divided into two compartments by a vertical partition wall, while an opening leads the liquid from each compartment to a common spout at the foot. Inside the neck there is a round wall with small holes, like a sieve; and, at the top of each half, air holes have been made near the handles. If when the spout at the bottom is shut, wine is poured into the neck of the amphora, it can only fill the half whose air hole is open. Later the other half may be filled with water, using the same procedure. When the neck has been closed, either water or wine can be poured from the same spout, if the right air hole is obstructed with a finger.

http://www.maicar.com/GML/Wine.html

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... Heron appears to have been the 'go to man' for thaumata ... a.k.a miracles.

Considering the information that it was known how to 'CONvince' others that you could turn water into wine, what is more likely to have occurred in the bible tale ?

1. That 'Jesus' performed an actual miracle and changed the water into wine.

OR

2. That 'Jesus' used Heron's amphora and no miracle occurred.

Please provide the reason why you have chosen one possibility over another.


[center]History Channel - Ancient Discoveries: Machines of the Gods 1/4

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Part 2/4


Part 3/4


Part 4/4
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[TheParticlePerson]

It's always seemed more likely to me that somebody was decieved or mistaken, rather than the laws of nature being suspended. I think this is what some people sometimes refer to as (and I really do hate this phrase...) "common sense".

[JoeyKnothead]

It's always seemed more likely to me that somebody was decieved or mistaken, rather than the laws of nature being suspended. I think this is what some people sometimes refer to as (and I really do hate this phrase...) "common sense".

Why does it always seem like it's those who have it that hate it?

[Woland]

I'm sometimes ready, for the purposes of discussion, to grant Christians that we "actually" have the eyewitness reports of people who think that they saw miracles. This often raises other interesting questions.

Why would God help people get drunk in a remote place of the desert when untold numbers of sentient beings (his own creation) are dying and starving in their abject ignorance all over the world?

But seriously, what's more likely: that God turned water into wine, or that folk tales were made up by ignorant desert-dwellers out of thin air (or, granting the testimonies, out of a parlor trick)?

These are the kinds of questions that Christians do not really seem to be asking themselves very seriously, or while keeping the facts about human gullibility and fallibility in mind.

How is it that the history of extreme gullibility of humans (who've collectively shown that they are willing to believe absolutely anything at all) has not yet shamed at least most of them into a healthy skepticism when it comes to unverifiable claims of supernatural events?

-Woland

[Goat]

Why would God help people get drunk in a remote place of the desert when untold numbers of sentient beings (his own creation) are dying and starving in their abject ignorance all over the world?

-Woland

[Nec Spe Nec Metu]

Why would God help people get drunk in a remote place of the desert when untold numbers of sentient beings (his own creation) are dying and starving in their abject ignorance all over the world?

-Woland

A picture is worth a thousand words. Thank you for illustrating the absurdity of Christianity so succinctly.

Kudos.

Hypothetical justification for belief in a personal God (Jesus - the Trinity - Allah - whatever) when faced with such startling reality speaks volumes about the character, intelligence and worldview of the one defending such belief. 'Nuff said, methinks.

[wonderer]

I always thought it was strange that Jesus encouraged people to drink wine and probably get drunk, as it was the end of the wedding after all the other wine had been drunk, because someone in the Epistles it says to Christians 'Do not be drunk with wine..." Some Christian commentators explained it away by claiming the wine spoken of was non alcoholic!

[Nec Spe Nec Metu]

I always thought it was strange that Jesus encouraged people to drink wine and probably get drunk, as it was the end of the wedding after all the other wine had been drunk, because someone in the Epistles it says to Christians 'Do not be drunk with wine..." Some Christian commentators explained it away by claiming the wine spoken of was non alcoholic!

Sometimes I wonder if Christian apologetics should be considered a subset of Olympic gymnastics. Some people on this board would likely take at least a bronze medal. They sure do make themselves sound smart, though. Others... not so much.

[Question Everything]

How is it that the history of extreme gullibility of humans (who've collectively shown that they are willing to believe absolutely anything at all) has not yet shamed at least most of them into a healthy skepticism when it comes to unverifiable claims of supernatural events?

Heck, there are many examples of this from the present day. For example, ever hear of Flight 19? Sounds really spooky when you read "Triangle" books, but when you look at the facts you see clear pilot error - we even have the actual tape recordings of their radio transmissions, and they do not speak of "white water" or "everything looks wrong and strange", or any of that other nonsense that is in the books, which claim to present a historical account. I hardly think that ancient writers were somehow more accurate in what they wrote about.

[I AM ALL I AM]

G'day.

Thanks for the responses. Great picture Goat.

With 130 views of the thread at the time of typing this, it is telling that no christian has responded and claimed that 'Jesus' actually did perform a miracle by turning water into wine. After all, this is one of the claims to support the apparent divinity of 'Jesus' ... surely not all christians converted after having viewed the information in this thread ... so where are the responses from the christians on the forum ?

Does the information presented create doubts about the bible story and all other supposed miracles cited in the bible story ?

If not, why not ?

When obvious answers are provided to supposed miraculous occurrences, showing them to be of a mundane occurrence, what reason is there still left to believe that it was a miracle ?

Is it uncontested that 'Jesus' used Heron's amphora and that no miracle occurred ?

Being uncontested, does it mean that it is commonly accepted that the 'water into wine thing' is simply a trick and not a miracle ?