Is the story of The Flood ethical?

dangerdan · Post by **dangerdan** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:04 pm

If one is to assume the story of The Flood to be literally correct, can God's actions be deemed the most unjust, unethical and immoral acts in the history of the earth?

Post by **otseng** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:36 am

It could perhaps be considered immoral if the following things were true:
- All humans were innocent
- God did not warn them of a flood
- God did not provide a way of escape

However, none of it are true.

The Bible states that the people were wicked and not innocent.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

God has warned Noah that He would destroy the earth.

Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Noah told the people through words and actions of God's impending judgement. It says in 2 Peter that Noah was a preacher. So, he must've shared verbally about God.

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Meanwhile, he was building this huge boat in his backyard. It probably could be seen for miles around. And it certainly would have been the talk of the town, if not the whole land, and been the object of much lively discussion.

And of course, the way of escape was the ark. God commanded Noah specific instructions on how to build it so it could survive the flood. If it can fit representatives of all the land and air animals, then it could've certainly fit in a few more humans. But, apparently nobody else believed Noah's ridiculous story of a worldwide flood.

Saskia · Post by **Saskia** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:13 am

Yeah, this one is really tough, I agree. What otseng said is great and I totally agree with it, but I can see what the complaint is. A lot of what God does seems really unfair, especially in the old testament. The whole book of Joshua, for example, and a lot of the Mosaic law. The book of Job is bascially about people thinking what God is doing is massively unfair and unjust.
Here's what God says in Job (I'm not quoting directly but you can go check it out if you don't trust me):
He basically says "Listen Job, you don't know what you're talking about. You accuse me of being unjust, but who are you to judge" and then he goes on to ask a whole heap of questions like "were you there when I formed the seas?" etc.
So basically, in addition to what otseng said, humans can't understand God's reasoning. Sometimes a thing will seem unjust, but that is because of our flawed way of looking at it.

dangerdan · Post by **dangerdan** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:20 pm

Otseng, I’ll go about replying the first points of your post, which you put forward are all false, (so I just added and deleted “not”)

All humans were not innocent – I have never met someone that was “wicked” to the point that they deserved death. Ironically enough, neither did Jesus.

God did warn them of a flood – Who did he warn? - The people in that city? Was that the only human beings on the earth at that time? How did he warn them? – through some guy that said they were all going to die if we didn’t do what he said. I hear people like that all the time.

God did provide a way of escape – Escape from what? His own wrath? This is not very gracious.

So basically, in addition to what otseng said, humans can't understand God's reasoning.

Saskia, you must also realize that this argument cuts both ways. If God operates on a different level of reasoning to us, then why are we debating any issues about God at all?

Post by **otseng** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 11:26 pm

dangerdan wrote: All humans were not innocent I have never met someone that was "wicked" to the point that they deserved death.

Your argument is coming from your own standard of what constitutes a guilty person. From God's perspective, it is different. Again, Gen 6:5 states, "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. "

Ironically enough, neither did Jesus.

We are all wicked enough to cause the death of Jesus. So, though Jesus did not condemn anyone to death, our guilt did condemn him to death.

How did he warn them? through some guy that said they were all going to die if we didnt do what he said.

Yes, Noah was the messenger.

God did provide a way of escape Escape from what? His own wrath? This is not very gracious.

If the people were innocent, then God would not have had to pronounce judgement. So, the root cause was man's sins, not God's wrath.

dangerdan · Post by **dangerdan** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 2:58 am

Your argument is coming from your own standard of what constitutes a guilty person.

That is true, I was just giving my personal opinion. But let me get this straight. God makes universe. God makes man. God makes man curious. Curious man eats apple even though he was told not to. Rest of humanity and the universe around him crumble in horrible spiral of death and destruction for the rest of eternity. Justly, humanity is forever cursed with congenital evilness. Is that right?

Gen 6:5 states, "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. "

Lets just have a genuine think about this scenario and whether it actually makes sense. Is it possible for someone’s “imagination of the thought of his heart” to be continually evil. If I am interpreting this phrase correctly, can I simplify that to this question to “Can someone’s thoughts and actions be 100%, continually, totally evil?” (even if we assume the bibles definition of “evil”). What about when they are thinking “Hmmm, you know what, I could really go a piece of flat bread…I think I’ll eat some that I have in my backpack” is that evil? Or when they think “Hmmm, I need to go to the toilet” is that evil? Or when they think “my elbows a bit itchy” or “gee, is that the time?” or “hmmm, I hadn’t noticed that freckle on my arm” is that evil?

Post by **otseng** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:36 pm

dangerdan wrote: That is true, I was just giving my personal opinion. But let me get this straight. God makes universe. God makes man. God makes man curious. Curious man eats apple even though he was told not to. Rest of humanity and the universe around him crumble in horrible spiral of death and destruction for the rest of eternity. Justly, humanity is forever cursed with congenital evilness. Is that right?

I wouldn't say humanity is forever cursed. Jesus came to redeem us from the curse.
Gal 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:"

Gen 6:5 states, "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. "

Continually is "yowm" in Hebrew. It is translated as "day" 2008 times in the KJV, "daily" 44 times, and "continually" 10 times. So, it could be just a minimum of once a day per person is enough.

Imagination is "yetser" in Hebrew. Its meaning is "form, framing, purpose, framework." The verse doesn't simply say "every thoughts of his heart", but "every imagination of the thoughts of his heart". So, it can be that the framework/mindset of people's thoughts were on evil.

dangerdan · Post by **dangerdan** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:46 pm

Jesus came to redeem us from the curse.

A curse that he placed on humanity in the first place.

So, it could be just a minimum of once a day per person is enough.

…enough to murder and smite almost all humans and animals…on the face of the earth?

Post by **otseng** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:48 pm

dangerdan wrote: A curse that he placed on humanity in the first place.

The curse only came after Adam sinned.

enough to murder and smite almost all humans and animalson the face of the earth?

It's actually difficult for us to judge how much sin was on the earth prior to the flood. We have no accurate "sin level" to gauge how prevalent was sin. The only thing we can go by is what is written in the Bible. And, apparently, the sin level was enough for God to judge the entire world.

dangerdan · Post by **dangerdan** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:37 pm

Prompt response! Nice work. (I’m bored at work)

The curse only came after Adam sinned.

And cursing the world for the actions of one man seems perfectly normal?

And, apparently, the sin level was enough for God to judge the entire world.

And this judgment was – “You know what? Those guys over there are sinning, not that they have any choice after my curse I placed on humanity after Adam and Eve. But anyway, the punishment will be…ummm…DEATH!…to almost the entire world!!! I think I’ll kill them with…umm…water. Nice change from fire and brimstone I think”