Free Will vs Intelligence

[teegstar]

Ok - So I have a question that I thought might get some interesting debate.

Please excuse any typos and none technical words. Everyone's going to get to know me as 'that guy who likes to use mundane words and confuses their, there, and they're'.

Question:

Can Creationists please explain, if I were to place my hand in a pot of boiling water - why would my subconscious have me remove it from the boiling water within a second or two.

I.E. Whats stopping me from keeping it in there for 5 seconds and my reflex kicking in

As an Evolutian, I believe that this is a sign of intelligence.
I.E. Humans have aquired knowledge (bad to leave hand in the boiling water) and applied that knwoledge (hand removed from water - an instinct).

If God has given us free will, - why cant we just stick good ole` lefty in the pot for a few minutes and watch it cook away.

The pain stops that from occuring, but why do you automatically remove your hand from that source of pain, without even getting to experience the pain - as another example, you turn the hotwater on to rinse something, then turn it off. You dry the dish with a dish towel, stick it in the cupboard and when you turn around you turn the water on again. You forget that it was just on hot, stick your hand in the running water, and in a split second you instinctivly flick it away from the running water, your heart rate increases a little, and you think 'Gee - that was close' even though you actually DID put your hand under that boiling water. Something 'made' you remove it, and the pain hadnt trigged just yet

DISLAIMED: Apologies for any typos

[Cathar1950]

Deqsan wrote:

When it comes to making an ultimate choice between good and evil, right and wrong to the standard revealed by our creator (that is to say, not our own ethics or standards but God's) we, as fallen creatures, are incapable of 'choosing' the right way, we reject God's way.

First I don't think the Creator did such a good job revealing a standard
that can not be followed if your twisted enough to follow.
I don't belive that we are incapable of choosing the right way. What ever that might be it would have to be a something we could do or it wouldn't be a right or wrong choice. It would be beyond us and there for irrelevant.
Now if The Elohem(the Gods) told me to kill my only son(or any one),
I would not need an messenger from YHWH to stop me. I would say No.
Your God you kill him I will do what I can to stop you.
I would think God would honor that more then obedience. "does not the judge of all the earth do right?". I don't see any one rejecting God's way just other peoples way they think God demands.

Our intellect finds reasons to disobey, ignore, ridicule, deny, even create our own way in place of His way (false religion, philosophies, denial of God's existence) which seem more palatable to us, with regards to religion, give a man a set of rites, rules, observances, ceremonies, which he can perform, a pilgrimage and assure him that this will please God, he would be more likely to try them, as he would be able to boast in his achievements, playing to human pride.

I don't think our intellect finds reason. That sounds like neuroses.
If we could find a better way we would. I think you got sold a bill of goods.
Seems like your religion is promoting low self esteem to get people to conform to some ones idea of right.

What we see in the Christian faith is a unique declaration that salvation is outside of human endeavour, no matter how much a man 'wills' himself to please God, he cannot. No amount of purification ceremonies, religious observances, good works etc can please God.

Why do you think you can't please God? That sounds like some kind of dysfunctional parent that you can never please, because they are jealous, or messed up, and no sense of relationship. They were probably beat as a child themselves. If some one said to you "I can never make my dad happy". Don't you think there might be something wrong with dad? You should give the guy advise "who cares what your dad thinks do it for your pleasure and well being".
Because you think it is outside of human endeavor you don't have to try,
your laying down on the job, taking the easy way out.

As man is therefore incapable by his 'free will' to choose to follow God's way, God in His mercy and love, makes us new creatures in Christ, giving us a new nature, (by the working of the person of the Holy Spirit), one that can choose to live as God intended, knowing that the chief aim of man is to glorify God, that's a liberated will!

I don't think it follows that man is incapable of free will or to choose God's way. If he has a way different then what we can see as right and wrong. Then we are not even responsible. The rest of what you say is bumper sticker stuff. Why would God need glory? I don't think my kids are around for my glory even if they please me and make me proud. I want to see them do well and be happy. I think God(or any idea of God) is a better daddy then me. Or at least he should be.

Icarus wrote"

Teegstar,
How would science prove your cat is God and the cat talks to you?
Quote:

Once again - I can say my cat is God, and he's told me that he made the sky blue because its his favourite colour. Creationists couldnt argue otherwise because I dont have to 'give' any proof of it, inform me if there is some way you can prove otherwise. Science could though.

Your cat is not God. It just acts like it because it is a cat.

[Alien]

Teegstar,

The title you have given to your thread sounds really interesting. I entered in here thinking to find a debate on the difference (if any) between free will and intelligence, and even on the definitions of both (very very difficult).

But I must confess that I have been a little bit surprised to see that your first post is actually dealing with a very precise and detailed question. And this question, even if it is definitely interesting, does not really match, IMO, your thread title.

Your question is basically focused on the fact that the self-preservation instinct might not work in some cases, and this does not match with the Creationist theory that it comes from God. If designed by God, why it does not work with people committing suicide?

Science can give two different explanations for the two different cases, but my understanding is that none of these two explanations (self-preservation vs/ suicide) can really be called "free will" or "intelligence".

In addition, I think that the concept of "free will" is just another way for saying "intelligence". What do you (or others) think?

[Cathar1950]

Alien wrote:

In addition, I think that the concept of "free will" is just another way for saying "intelligence". What do you (or others) think?

Maybe? Or are the both ways of saying awareness and Conscienceness?
Maybe freedom can only be talked about at a sub-atomic level and we are just remembering and think we have choice. I can think of many things I wish I had not done but at the time it seemed like the thing to do given the circumstance and my limited understanding. Many things I would do over even if it went bad because it was the right or best thing to do.
Freedom is a tricky word free will even worse.

[nikolayevich]

Can Creationists please explain, if I were to place my hand in a pot of boiling water - why would my subconscious have me remove it from the boiling water within a second or two.

The basic creationist answer is that the very reflexes which prevent even death myriad times over in the course of our lives, must have been there from day one, since without them, we as humans could not have survived. They could not have evolved, since the very need for them betrays the fact that they are elemental.

[Alien]

Alien wrote:

In addition, I think that the concept of "free will" is just another way for saying "intelligence". What do you (or others) think?

Maybe? Or are the both ways of saying awareness and Conscienceness?

This is my opinion: free will and consciousness look as two different concepts, but in effect they are two different ways of describing two aspects of the intelligence.
At lower level of intelligence, ie on animals, on children, on mentally handicapped people, during coma, under anaesthesia, and so on, we can experience lower levels of consciousness and free will.
At higher levels, we can experience consciousness and free will.

And, in addition, higher levels of intelligence (probably present in some mammals like cetaceans and primates) presuppose higher skills in communication. Without communication, intelligence cannot develop and therefore no consciousness and no free will.