Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

[Christianity in crisis?]

I believe same sex marriage is not a church issue when it comes to the law. Christians who try to ban same sex marriage are wrong, and should be consistent with the separation of church and state. BTW... I am an evangelical Christian against forms of legalized discrimination.

[Kuan]

What I mean is that Mormons are misunderstood. Would you agree? So we are fighting to be less understood.

I would agree that Mormons are often misunderstood. I wonder why anyone would fight to be less understood.

My bad, more understood.

they are allowed to do whatever they want.

No one is allowed to do whatever they want. That is why we need laws.

What about when laws become detrimental to society. What about if a dictator gains power and starts concentration camps?

Is that likely? That is why we need the rule of law, civil society and the protection of constitutionally guaranteed rights.

That is true. You can do whatever you want as long as it is legal and applicable to the rule of law and constitutionally guaranteed rights.

[Faith Seeking Understandi]

Same sex marriage is a Church issue. It was first initiated by the church and has for centuries been guided by the church. If it wasn't then why are we having this conversation. What has happened is that the major part of the Western population has deterred away from the Christian culture. So much so that we can now say that we are no longer a Christian society. To put this in perspective i myself am a Christian man who places marriage 2nd below God. So in saying this, before i get married i look into the biblical perspectives of marriage so that i will get it right in relationship with God and my partner and my children, Biblically. I don't have sex as i am waiting for marriage and i see it as a covernant arrangement with God. To get married is a form of worship for me. So in saying this i have a Chistian perspective, but compare this to one of the cultures that lived next to the Israelites who worshiped and practiced their way of life on top of hills and at home. They practiced orgies and homosexual acts while cross dressing and being drunk and so much more. These deferences was mentioned and portrayed and ultimately contrasted throughout the bible. So in saying this marriage is culturally a major part of being a Christian and is also legally. And for a gay person they are a completely different cultures. So if one culture picks on another culture, that is called racism. I have a gay sister who i love immensly. When i go to a gay bar, if there is something that i cannot handle, i just leave, and thats being respectful. So why be disrespectful to me by forcing upon my culture, which is the second most valuable part of my cultures life, something that which is not and get upset about it . Why put up a gay flag and claim it your territory when for 1000's of centuries it was my nations turf. When the English settled in Australia they did what you are trying to do now, but the difference is that today Astralians dont get upset about it and force the English views back upon them. Thats racism. Our cultures were different back then and still is, so what are you playing at and why do you pick on a different culture. Most of westerners are not Christians. They may claim that they are but they are not. It is obvious by the way i live my life and the way you live yours. So please, if gay people want a contract' put it under a different form that is something completely different. Like Baal worship. If you look into the way the Israelites developed their legal system they tryed to center it around the biblical ethical system. They were not perfect as stoning was mentioned,( but thats another matter). But the western governments have tryed to do the same even though it is still not perfect. There needs to be changes legally within marriage , but hey thats our problem not yours. Remember we started it. So please don't be racist, or direspectfull. Homosexuality and Christianity is like chalk and cheese. So why? this has gone to far. Sorry but this is the truth.

[Faith Seeking Understandi]

Oh yeh i also want to add something else. If you look at Christianity as being separate from legal issues then why does representives of Christianity get sworn into parliament house each year. Because they get to defend their culture through legal processes. If you don't like that then the Jews and Muslims do too. Its like one big soup bowl in Australia. So for me marriage is a Christians legal right. Not gays. Thanku for letting me defend my family. Sorry if i sound a little agitated. I'm tired. Goodnight.

[Faith Seeking Understandi]

Oh yeh, also, if you want to look at my perspectives in regards to homosexuality, look up "Does gay marriage threaten traditional values." Its just extra food for thought. Nobody has replyed to them either.

[McCulloch]

Same sex marriage is a Church issue.

Only for members of the Church. The church has nothing to say about my marriage.

It was first initiated by the church and has for centuries been guided by the church.

The church did not invent marriage. People were getting married before there was a church, they get married without the church now and will continue to get married, long after the church has been forgotten like so many other religious artifacts.

If it wasn't then why are we having this conversation.

Probably because the churches insist on trying to act as the arbiter of values and morals for those outside its doors.

What has happened is that the major part of the Western population has deterred away from the Christian culture.

Yes, we rejected the church's notion of a heliocentric universe and the sciences were born. We rejected the churches notion of the divine right of kings, and the democracy and human rights were improved.

So much so that we can now say that we are no longer a Christian society.

You say that like it is a bad thing.

To put this in perspective i myself am a Christian man who places marriage 2nd below God.

That is your right and your choice. We have freedom of religion. Please do not try to impose your choice on the rest of us.

So please, if gay people want a contract' put it under a different form that is something completely different.

Christians do not own the concept of marriage. The Greeks and the Romans, before Christianity were getting married. Virtually every culture and language has some concept and certainly the word for marriage. You want to prohibit same sex marriage within your church, that's OK with me. Some religions prohibit certain foods. But don't try to tell the rest of us that you own the concept of marriage or of eating.

If you look at Christianity as being separate from legal issues then why does representives of Christianity get sworn into parliament house each year.

I understand that the UK House of Lords, anachronistically, still have the Lords Spiritual, but I thought that the Australian parliament consisted only of directly elected members. In fact, section 116 of the Australian constitution prohibits the use of religious tests for Federal offices.

So for me marriage is a Christians legal right.

No one is trying to take that away from you

Not gays.

Why not?

Thank u for letting me defend my family.

Defend your family from what?

[Faith Seeking Understandi]

It is obvious that there has been many forms of marriage, but within the western culture, marriage was legally instituted by Christians. And the other cultural ways of marriage is not similar to the marriage within this institution that was established through the Church with it legalities. Different God different system. This western culture began as a Christian culture so why take that which was never meant for gay people. And why get upset? For a Christian who's culture instituted it within western society wonders why do you want to continue to pursue it.

I have noticed that this forum is used to put Christians down. So i wonder why? Also i've noticed that most biblical statements through out this forum has been so far of track that it is almost witchcraft. To interpret scripture we must first read the bible, then the book, then the passage, then the scripture. We must grasp what the text said to the people in that town at that time and in context, then measure the width of that great divide that separates our time and culture from theirs, then look at the principles that do cross that bridge and then try to grasp onto what that scripture say's to our own time. And there is so much more to consider when interpreting. Thats why the Church employs Scholars. So when you threw yourself out there and made out that you new Scripture (like so many more in this forum), i wanted to add that God never wanted a King, man did. A major mob within the Israelite community insisted on it because they were influenced by the surrounding communities and were competing with the Joneses. And that was what it was. Samuel the prophet warned them what the Kings would do to them, by repeating what God told him to say. So this is where i want to add a statement of yours.

Probably because the churches insist on trying to act as the arbiter of values and morals for those outside its doors.

Who is forcing on who? You had one statement and the rest were just a pile of lashing out at the Christians and enforced your views upon me. You put down my personal values to then try to distrupt my valued and sacred form of marriage aswell. So in saying this who's entered my home, trying to steel and convert me. Its like what the English did to the Aboriginies. So don't arbitrate your views upon my culture. Your wrong on all levels.

In regards to science I think that it is great. We all get to see what God has created for us. Its a way to seek Him. What you perceive science to be is a way to discredit Christ. The living God. You should check out " the intelligent design." Evolutionists couldn't explain it so the have become science fiction by blaming aliens. Its an interesting world.

Also the funny thing about this forum is that its a forum to lash out at Christians. 'You Know its ok to be' ..... 'a Christian.' It's funny what this is becoming, (or has it been for a while?) a gay society that hates Christians. If thats the consistent underlying sentiment towards Christians then one must question your true intentions of attacking the idea of marriage? Thats what it is for you, 'an idea,' as you perceive that there is no God in your marriage and its "an idea" between two people. But what makes it obvious of your anger towards us Christians is that you want to fight an idea agaisnt a sacred act which was instituted legally by Christians within the Western Culture. So why insist? I know its just one big mocking session to Christians and God. At least your consistent. I'd give you that.

You know with me saying all of this, i love gay people. And as a matter of fact i have lived with, hung out with and have a sister who is gay. I've even put my life on the line for her several times. I have a sunken knuckle defending her from a pack of men. She understands me. Why Don't you? Oh yeh thats right your racist?

And before i finish, Australia does swear in representatives from Christian, Muslim and Jewish communities within parliament. Thanku.

[McCulloch]

I live in a country which is essentially secular, like Australia, UK, USA. In these countries, the definition of marriage is one that is common to all, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, non-religious and others.

Christians did not invent or create this common definition of marriage. Nor do we have a separate type of marriage for Christians, or any other religious group. The Christian concept of marriage is one that they inherited from society. Yes, the Christians, like many other groups, added some theological implications and religious ideas to marriage, but in the west, marriage is not essentially a Christian institution.

There was no formal liturgy formulated for marriage in the early Church. No special ceremonial was devised to celebrate Christian marriage, despite the fact that the Church had produced liturgies to celebrate the Eucharist, Baptism and Confirmation. It was not important for a couple to have their nuptials blessed by a priest. People could marry by mutual agreement in the presence of witnesses. The first detailed account of a Christian wedding in the West dates from the 9th century.

"Who is forcing on whom?" someone might ask. On one side, the advocates of gay rights, wish to formally and legally recognize gay couples who wish it, as being married. Faith communities which do not support the idea of same sex marriage are not compelled to perform those weddings or to accept such couples into their faith community. On the other side, the religious opponents of gay rights, wish to extent their faith based opposition to the recognition of same sex marriage to those outside of their faith community. It is really clear to me who is attempting to do the forcing here.

I am in no way trying to enforce my views on anyone. Jews and Muslims are free to prohibit their members from eating pork. Christians are free to prohibit their members from same sex marriage. Roman Catholics are free to keep women from the priesthood. Jehovah's Witnesses are free to prohibit their members from getting blood transfusions. None of them are allowed to extent their particular faith based prohibitions outside of their own faith community.

I am not attacking in any way your feeling of the sacredness of your marriage. You feel that your marriage has been blessed by your god, and that is a good thing. You feel that the marriage of my neighbors is not blessed by your god, and you are allowed to feel that way. I cannot see how the fact that they are legally married has any impact on how you view your marriage. Their marriage takes nothing away from yours.

Australia does swear in representatives from Christian, Muslim and Jewish communities within parliament.

I checked the Parliament of Australia web site and could find no reference to religious groups' representation.

[Faith Seeking Understandi]

Thanku, for your more toned down reply. Being so emotional when debating topics does at times portray other reasons for your concerns, other than what your are saying. So thanku for the insight to your reasons why you debate this topic.

Any way i can see that we see different perspectives on this matter in regards to who began the legal institution of marriage or any other fundamental legal processes or laws within Western culture. In England, who Westernized many countries, did at times enforce Chritianity upon their countries. We can say that it was sad, but thats a debate separate to this. The religious outlook within England would depend on who ruled. So if one King or Queen ruled, that person would decree legally what religion that that country was to follow and its practices and then they would enforce laws that were to back up their religious perspectives. Whether you would see that as bad or not thats another debate. But what that society would do is patriarchally honour that ruler. So the Church had a big say in their country and Westernized countries also. If you like that or not thats another debate. So in saying all of this, it was the church who instituted the legalities and fundamental aspect of marriage in today's societies. Now if you think that it is no longer a Christian institution, well that would depend on what happens with the Homosexuals attacking this Christian institution that is currently upheld by the Church. You are jumping the gun in your comment that it is not. Your trying to persuade the court with what you want which has not happened by brain washing with lies. Throughout history the Church has consistantly up held the intuition of marriage within Western culture. Now if homosexuals enforce their culture upon my family, The Church, you will then undermine a cultural custom that is of the Church. It really is a direct attack against Christian culture. You are enforcing your culture so much so that you want to undermine mine and destroy its valued custom that it has defended for so long. Now we have two completely different views and i know that your passionate about yours and i am for mine. So we may never agree. But i know one thing that separates us in our passions. Im defending my home, culture, customs, social standing and right to live as my already long standing culture wishes within a democratic culture. Your passion is to undermine all that, my passions and my families passions stand for. It is true racism. I believe that we should seriously look to the real issues of why do homosexuals continue with a narrow minded attack on my culture. Gays already have a union in place that is legal in Australia. So why go for our jugular. Whats the point. You already have one in place. The reason being is that it is hatred towards Christians.Sorry but that is the truth. We should be debating why so much hatred so that whatever sores that people may have, can be reconciliated. I love gay people, but this is my family that is being victimized.

In regards to things of government i will get the information that you need. Thankyou.

[Slopeshoulder]

FSU, your repeated and unsubstantiated claim that christian culture owns marriage is complete amd utter nonsense.
And it really deserves no greater reply than that.
You're kidding yourself, but fooling no one.
Perhaps your faith should seek more understanding? That would mean an honest assessment of facts. Your "history" and "culture" are pure inventions.

[Faith Seeking Understandi]

So this is what it has come down to. Sorry for defending my customs rights. I guess freedom to live by ones customary social standing doesn't work with hatred. Your hatred comments only prove my point again. You should read my thoughts on, "Does gay marriage affect fundamental values." Another is, "Do you think that non-theists can experience the same experience, commonly known as spiritualism." Its good to broaden your horizon. Anyway, love ya.