God, Satan and Job

[Tim the Skeptic]

The book of Job starts out with the "divine beings", including Satan, getting together with God. (OK, this is bizarre considering what I understand of God/Satan relationship, but not my point here.) And then this conversation, as I interpret it, occurs:

God (to Satan): Isn't Job a great guy, he is a blameless and upright man.

Satan: Look at the way he's been blessed by you. Of course, he's a great guy.

God: OK, you can do to his life whatever you want but don't hurt him.

Satan destroys Job's wealth and kills his children. But he did so with God's permission, so, who's responsible? Is God the source of this evil that happens to Job?

[McCulloch]

So can any Christian apologist reconcile the God of Job with the God of the Gospel of John? They do seem like different fellows to me. The bible is made up of more than sixty different books. No one has been able to show me that there is a consistency throughout.

[youngborean]

I can try. Even those with exemplary works before men are still in need of the grace of God. John never denies suffering for those that love the Lord.


Jhn 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.
Jhn 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Jhn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Jhn 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
Jhn 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
Jhn 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
Jhn 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
Jhn 15:25 But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Jhn 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

[Cathar1950]

I do not see consistency either. I see editing and change. If you look at John it is hard to believe that Jesus said any of those things about himself or to anyone. In john we have an other worldly figure, a divine Christ striped of his humanity. At least in the other Gospels they kept him human.

[Tim the Skeptic]

Sorry, youngborean, none of those work for me. They all sound like God is on your side and if bad things happen to you it's because you love God.

But that's not what happened to Job.

Job was a great servant of the Lord (God said so). And God sicced Satan on him and did nothing when Satan killed Job's family. Job wasn't persuecuted by the world. Job took the hit from God and his delivery boy.

And what's the conversation at the end.

God (to Job): I'm God, you're not. Deal with it.

Job: You're right, God. I'm nothing. I'm dust.

God: Good answer. Hey, your old kids are dead, but I'll score you some new ones. Oh yeah, your friends are jerks but I won't kill them.

Is there anything that is not repulsive about this story?

[trencacloscas]

The end of the book of Job was probably wiped out. It ends oddly, doesn't it? Abruptly and without solving anything. The "compensation" for Job is pretty lame (Oh, Job, dear, I erased your whole family, wife, kids et al, but I will give you another, nothing really happens, we remain friends, we ok, huh?). The reason for including this one in the Bible is also pretty obscure, since makes God look like a monster and shows the whole theological scenario like a parody.

[bobfisher]

Sorry, youngborean, none of those work for me. They all sound like God is on your side and if bad things happen to you it's because you love God.

But that's not what happened to Job.

Job was a great servant of the Lord (God said so). And God sicced Satan on him and did nothing when Satan killed Job's family. Job wasn't persuecuted by the world. Job took the hit from God and his delivery boy.

Actually this is the way it is throughout the bible. God does not hide the fact that he created evil (Isaiah 45:7) and the He uses evil (for good).

Here is a NT example of God being behind Satan who was behind men who were carrying out evil:

2 Cor 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

The messangers were sent by Satan to buffet (strike) Paul in his flesh (Paul was continuously being persecuted by evil men). But this had a purpose: To keep Paul humble. And for every purpose there is a purposer. In this case God. God gave Paul a thorn in the flesh to check his pride.

God --> Satan --> Messengers --> (Buffet) --> Paul

Another example is the tempation of Christ. Satan carried it out, but God intended it to occur and LED Jesus to be tempted by Satan.

Another example is the crucifixion of Christ. Men carried it out, but they were inspired by Satan. But in Isaiah 53 it says that it PLEASED God to bruise Jesus. Now when exactly did God bruise Jesus? When men crucified Him, that's when. So God was behind the whole thing.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

So your Job example is how it really is.
_________

[Tim the Skeptic]

Another example is the tempation of Christ. Satan carried it out, but God intended it to occur and LED Jesus to be tempted by Satan.

Another example is the crucifixion of Christ. Men carried it out, but they were inspired by Satan. But in Isaiah 53 it says that it PLEASED God to bruise Jesus. Now when exactly did God bruise Jesus? When men crucified Him, that's when. So God was behind the whole thing.

God's behind the whole thing?! Just like Hitler was behind the Holocaust? I've never heard that Hitler ever personnally shot anyone so he's not responsible for any of it? This boggles my mind. So God's not all good?

And please don't give me that lame analogy about "Don't you give your kids shots so they don't get sick"? Sure, but then I'm not an ALL-GOOD, ALL POWERFUL Being. If I was such a Being, I would get rid of diseases.

[bobfisher]

God's behind the whole thing?! Just like Hitler was behind the Holocaust? I've never heard that Hitler ever personnally shot anyone so he's not responsible for any of it? This boggles my mind. So God's not all good?

And please don't give me that lame analogy about "Don't you give your kids shots so they don't get sick"? Sure, but then I'm not an ALL-GOOD, ALL POWERFUL Being. If I was such a Being, I would get rid of diseases.

Tim,

God IS responsible. The bible says God created good & God created evil. God takes responsibility. He's not hiding it. It's Christians who try to cover it up.

According to the bible: Yes God is all good. Yes God is behind the whole thing. No God is not like Hitler because Hitler used evil with evil intent whereas God uses evil with good intent. Don't make the assumption that using evil must be evil.

God wants us to experiencially understand good & evil. Adam & Eve ate the tree of knowlege of good & evil and chose (of course God knew they would when He planted the tree) for mankind to receive that knowledge. We are now experiencially receiving that knowlege. Ultimately, God's goal is to fashion us in His image. God does not afflict us simply because He want's us afflicted. It's because He wants us to comprehend good & evil.

I assume you mean you would never have created diseases. But then man would never experience the contrast of good & evil. Probably it seems better to you that way. Seems better to me too. Why not just snap the ole fingers and impart the knowledge that way? Who knows. Maybe that just would not be the same as true experiencial knowlege. True experiencial knowledge of suffering means we MUST actually suffer. At any rate, God will get rid of all diseases and God will save the world from it's present evil condition.

Rom 8:18 Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will give us later. 19 For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. 20 Against its will, everything on earth was subjected to God's curse. 21 All creation anticipates the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay. 22 For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

[trencacloscas]

God uses evil with good intent. Don't make the assumption that using evil must be evil.

God does not afflict us simply because He want's us afflicted. It's because He wants us to comprehend good & evil.

Why? What for?
Epicurus comes to mind...

[palmera]

Quote:
God uses evil with good intent. Don't make the assumption that using evil must be evil.

God does not afflict us simply because He want's us afflicted. It's because He wants us to comprehend good & evil.

This doesn't hold within the context of Job. It falls in line with the theodicy of Jobs friends whom God reprimanded. Without assuming anything about the use of evil, the very beginning of Job shows that no good intentions are behind God's actions- it is a bet, an arrogant wager, and one which Job protested in the end and rightfully so. God cannot be justified in Job; to do so is to miss the point entirely.

Job relates as a metaphor (or an analogy depending on how one views it in regards to historical fact) an aspect of the experiential relationship between the Hebrews and God. The complexity of this relationship is part of the foundation of OT writings. A book like Job speaks to a truth about the experiences of the Hebrews in relationship to God. It's aim is not to portray factual history, but to subject the reader to the factual truth of the experiences shaping the way one understands God and relationship with God. Job portrays a theodicy of protest in which G-ds is held responsible for G-d's actions against humanity without the benefit of justification. It's an argument, a crying out to the creator for injustice done while at the same time a justification of God's people. One striking thing about Job is that it is also a book of love in the deepest sense. Love is shown through Job's argument with G-D. Rather than passively ignore the creator by chalking up everything that has happened as "G-d's plan" Job directly engages G-d in a way that demands a response (which is of course forcefully given!) Job shows love of G-d in this response, through directly engaging G-d rather than turn away and close the door to suffer alone.

Anyway, long post, the point being that G-d's actions cannot be justified in Job, nor should they be according to the story. On a side note, Job hit home in a profound way during the holocaust with many Jews, Jewish writers and theologians.