Are there any prophecies in the Bible?

[notachance]

It seems to me that the go-to "proof" that the Bible is divinely inspired are prophecies.

So I was hoping that somebody would give me an example of a prophecy that might prove the supernatural nature of the Bible.

I will write below a few criteria that I think any alleged prophecy must meet in order to qualify as "evidence of supernatural nature of the Bible"

1) The prophecy must have been demonstrably written down before the event it predicts.
A prophecy is a statement about the future, not about the past.

For example, if I wrote today, in 2011, "I hereby make the prophecy that in 2008, Barack Obama will be elected President of the United States", that is NOT a prophecy, because I'm "predicting" an event that actually already happened.

Similarly, if a 350 AD manuscript (for example the Codex Sinaiticus) talked about some battle that took place in 600BC, that wouldn't be a prediction, it would be a description of something that happened almost 1000 years earlier.

2) A prophecy must have demonstrably actually been made
An example of scenario that would NOT count as a valid prophecy would one where I write down today "10 years before he died, John Lennon told an anonymous author that he would die by being shot in the head". There is no way of verifying that John Lennon ever said that, so it's not a valid prophecy.

3) A predicted event must be reliably documented.
For example, if I said "I predict that tonight I will dream about eating ice cream" and then the next day I say "The prophecy came true! I did dream about ice cream", that would not be an accurate prophecy because it was not reliably documented. Nobody other than me knows if it's actually true that I dreamed about ice-cream.

4) A prophecy must be specific enough that it cannot be adaptable to multiple scenarios that are somewhat likely to happen eventually.
For example if I wrote "There will be a war between Christians and Muslims in the next 100 years", then I'm not making a supernatural prophecy, just an educated guess given the nature of our international relations. In order for it to even be considered as a prophecy, it would have to be something like "On March 2nd 2076, the United States will begin a campaign of drone attacks in Iran, starting with a 3:30 am raid on a military base 20 miles north of Tehran".

Another example of what would not be a prophecy would be something like "the twin towers that collapsed on 9-11 will eventually be rebuilt"

5) In order for a prophecy to be considered proof of the supernatural nature of the Bible, there has to be no other reasonable way to explaining it than by supernatural means.
If you cannot prove that purely natural explanations (chance? self-fulfilling prophecy, forgery) truly cannot account for the prophecy, then your belief in the supernatural cause of the prophecy is no more than a faith statement, and if you are using that do justify your faith, you're engaging in circular logic ("I believe in this baseless claim, because it's supported by another baseless claim").

6) An accurate prophecy cannot be considered evidence of the supernatural if it is surrounded by inaccurate prophecies.
For example if I wrote today the following statements:
"Obama will be elected in 2012"
"Pawlenty will be elected in 2012"
"Romney will be elected in 2012"
"Palin will be elected in 2012"
"Gingrich will be elected in 2012"

And one of them turned out to be correct, that would prove nothing!

7) A prophecy can only be considered evidence of the supernatural if it predicts something that is extremely unlikely.
For example this chart shows that over the last 117 years, in Seattle it has rained on August 2nd 13 times. That means that there is 11.1% chance that it will rain in Seattle on August 2nd of any given year. So if I wrote the prophecy that "On Aug 2nd 2154 it will rain in Seattle", that would be an accurate prediction, but nonetheless not evidence of supernatural powers, simply evidence of the statistical fact that I had a 11.1% chance to be right.

8) The prophecy cannot be an expression of something that many people want to see happen, because the people's will is what drives the prophecy to be fulfilled in that case, and not a supernatural power.
For example, if Martin Luther King had said "I predict that one day a black man will be US President", that would not be the kind of prediction that would prove the supernatural, because in saying that, MLK would just be verbalizing a wish that was to some degree shared by millions of blacks and whites alike. It was simple social pressure from these millions that eventually caused the prophecy to be "fulfilled". If Hillary Clinton said "One day a woman will be President" she will, by saying it, inspire people to try to make that happen. It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.


It's almost 3am and I am a little tired. I may have to add additional bullet points later. It may also be that there is some redundancy, and that the list could be condensed while retaining it's purpose. But I think this is a good start.

Here are my two questions:

1) Do you agree that the requirements above are reasonable, if not explain why not

2) Can you think of any Bible prophecy that meets the requirements above?

(please don't link or quote 100 different prophecies, and don't then leave it to me to look them all up and debunk them all. Start by quoting the SINGLE MOST CONCLUSIVE example of a prophecy, and we can talk about that. Once we've debated it, we can move on to additional examples)

[Goat]

Well, here is one for you.....but nobody else will see it: (this is in part due to the mistranslations from the original text, perhaps purposeful when they were written in support of Jesus as Messiah... bc the new translations make it appear he is.... the original Hebrew, does not, it shows a different story):

Malachi is the one prophet who had a prophecy that came true with Jesus. Not the Messiah, but the one announced as the sword through (Ezekiel) was prophesied about in Malachi as one sent by Adonai-Tzva'ot (The Lord of the Armies)... that was his father. "The Father" and "my father" were distinctly separated by Jesus bc Adonai is The Father, and Adonai-Tzva'ot was the one who sent him (a clear distinction found in Hebrew translated text). Anyway, Jesus was sent to test and purify like a refiner.
As written in Malachi:
15 We consider the arrogant happy; also evildoers prosper; they put God to the test; nevertheless, they escape.'" 16 Then those who feared ADONAI spoke together; and ADONAI listened and heard. A record book was written in his presence for those who feared ADONAI and had respect for his name. 17 "They will be mine," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot, "on the day when I compose my own special treasure. I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him. 18 Then once again you will see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between the person who serves God and one that doesn't serve him.

Is that a prophecy, or is that an observation, and a declaration of being faithful? How is that any kind of prediction of the future, rather than an observation of the past and present at the time of the writing??

Christians are the "special treasure" but the house of Levi and Jacob are to be spared. I will not explain further, as it is clear in the prophecy to those who choose to see. The part that has been fulfilled was Jesus' arrival and what many call his "preaching" with the parables... which were really tests to determine who lived by Torah and who would be partial.

Really?? Are you projecting your hope, and are just reading into vague references the message you want to hear? Show me the exact phrases you want, and can you demonstrate that it isn't just vague phrases where you are 'filling in the blanks' so to speak?

1 "Look! I am sending my messenger to clear the way before me; and the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to his temple. Yes, the messenger of the covenant, in whom you take such delight - look! Here he comes," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot. 2 But who can endure the day when he comes? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire, like the soapmaker's lye. 3 He will sit, testing and purifying the silver; he will purify the sons of Levi, refining them like gold and silver, so that they can bring offerings to ADONAI uprightly. 4 Then the offering of Y'hudah and Yerushalayim will be pleasing to ADONAI, as it was in the days of old, as in years gone by.

How is that a propehcy for Jesus? Have not there been many prophets (messangers)???

I would have to sit down with you and read the entire book to show you what I am talking about. I can see how it appears Im showing you only passages I would like to prove something... and yes, anyone can do that.

As I concluded at the end of my previous post, you cannot prove anything between 2 parallel existencies (one existence... humans cant claim to know the ways of the other existence... in this case supernatural)... so I should have just deleted everything before it. All the information before it was presenting the closest thing to prophecy that I have found in the Bible... that was written before it actually happened (Revelations was to me not written prior to... it was a revelation of things that had happened). I believe God did send someone to define the righteous from the wicked... its just depending on who you talk to about it, they see it or him differently! That this disagreement/difference in opinion exists at all... doesnt that nullify a prophecy from being a prophecy (bc its not all truth and fulfillment as indisputable fact)?

Well, I don't see it. Your entire thesis about Malachi sounds like total projection to me.

[joncash]

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearlinga together;
and a little child will lead them.
The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the vipers nest.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.

-Isaiah 11:6-9

This is my favorite prophecy in the Bible. It has not yet come to pass.

All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost;
the old that is strong does not wither, deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring;
renewed shall be blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.

That's my favorite prophecy from the Lord of the Rings by J.R Tolkien. It has not yet come to pass.

Just because something sounds nice and quaint and epic and romantic, it doesn't mean that it has anything to do with the real world. Human beings are capable of writing fiction and be moved by it. It doesn't mean squat.

I believe your concept of prophecy is a primitive one based upon ancient, forcibly undeveloped (fundamentalist) beliefs.

That is NOT my concept of prophecy. It's indeed the concept of undeveloped fundamentalists who try to jam their literalist beliefs down my throat. It's their claims of Biblical evidence for God that I am responding to.

If you disagree with this interpretation of Christianity, you should take it up with those who embrace it, not me.

God makes no effort to prove Himself to anyone physically with magic tricks like fortune telling or otherwise.

Ok, so your answer to my OP question "Can you think of any Bible prophecy that meets the requirements above? " is no.

You claim that God does not prove his supernatural existence by virtue of prophecies or other magic tricks.

So how do you claim that this supernatural entity manifests himself, and what extra-biblical evidence you have to back up your claim?

What is the use in debating someone whose only discernable technique is that of shoving the most ridiculous, ancient examples of belief in God down the throats of modern believers? It seems you are here for the expressed purpose of lording your superior intellect over all of Christendom by proving your mettle against our most formidable proponents, the fundamentalists. Congratulations LOL.

[notachance]

What evidence can you supply indicating that Prophecy needs to follow a certain format?
Specifically your list of rules...

Ok, that's a good question. Let's take my rules one at a time.

rule number 1: I believe that a prophecy should happen before the event it predicts, otherwise it's not a prophecy.

Do you disagree with that?

If today I say "I predict that Germany will lose in World War Two" am I a prophet? If I say the twin towers will fall on Sept 11 2001, am I predicting the future?

It's just common sense, and basic definition of the word. Do you understand?

THE PROPHECY HAS TO HAPPEN BEFORE THE EVENT

If you can't see the irrefutable logic of that, then we truly have nothing to talk about.

Please respond with a simple yes or no to this question:

Do you understand and fully accept the logic of rule number 1. Do you accept that it's not a prophecy if it's describing something that already happened.

If you reply with a yes, we can go on to rule number 2

If you reply with a no, then I'm done with the conversation, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped posting on my thread.

[notachance]

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearlinga together;
and a little child will lead them.
The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the vipers nest.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.

-Isaiah 11:6-9

This is my favorite prophecy in the Bible. It has not yet come to pass.

All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost;
the old that is strong does not wither, deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring;
renewed shall be blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.

That's my favorite prophecy from the Lord of the Rings by J.R Tolkien. It has not yet come to pass.

Just because something sounds nice and quaint and epic and romantic, it doesn't mean that it has anything to do with the real world. Human beings are capable of writing fiction and be moved by it. It doesn't mean squat.

I believe your concept of prophecy is a primitive one based upon ancient, forcibly undeveloped (fundamentalist) beliefs.

That is NOT my concept of prophecy. It's indeed the concept of undeveloped fundamentalists who try to jam their literalist beliefs down my throat. It's their claims of Biblical evidence for God that I am responding to.

If you disagree with this interpretation of Christianity, you should take it up with those who embrace it, not me.

God makes no effort to prove Himself to anyone physically with magic tricks like fortune telling or otherwise.

Ok, so your answer to my OP question "Can you think of any Bible prophecy that meets the requirements above? " is no.

You claim that God does not prove his supernatural existence by virtue of prophecies or other magic tricks.

So how do you claim that this supernatural entity manifests himself, and what extra-biblical evidence you have to back up your claim?

What is the use in debating someone whose only discernable technique is that of shoving the most ridiculous, ancient examples of belief in God down the throats of modern believers? It seems you are here for the expressed purpose of lording your superior intellect over all of Christendom by proving your mettle against our most formidable proponents, the fundamentalists. Congratulations LOL.

Buddy, if you google "Bible Prophecy" more than 3 million websites come up.

Kudos to you for not believing this nonsense, but if you think that this literal belief in prophecies is some sort of ancient example of Christianity then you are sorely mistaken.

I'm not saying that all Christians believe in prophecies. You are right in saying that many modern Christians don't. BUT MILLIONS OF MODERN CHRISTIANS DO.

It's fundamentally dishonest to accuse me of "lording your superior intellect over all of Christendom". I am not bunching together all of Christianity, and your sarcastic tone is not appreciated, by the way.

But the notion that prophecies exist and prove the divinity of the Bible HAS BEEN PRESENTED. RECENTLY. TO ME. PERSONALLY. BY MODERN CHRISTIANS.

So I have the right to respond to that and request a clarification.

Hey, if you too disagree with the beliefs of the millions of fundamentalists, then we should join forces in dissuading them of their ancient out-of-date beliefs.

But the fact remains that what you call "ridiculous ancient examples of Christianity" are very very real today. If it weren't for people like me (and better than me), and if we let them have their way, your children wouldn't be taught evolution in biology class.

You and I know there are no prophecies in the Bible. Millions don't.

I'm trying to persuade them. If you don't want to lead that effort, then either follow, or get out of the way.

Surely pretending that "it's dishonest to refute prophecy claims because modern christians aren't making them" is patently wrong. Modern Christians ARE making those claims. And I have the right to inquire about the veracity of their claims.

[joncash]

What evidence can you supply indicating that Prophecy needs to follow a certain format?
Specifically your list of rules...

Ok, that's a good question. Let's take my rules one at a time.

rule number 1: I believe that a prophecy should happen before the event it predicts, otherwise it's not a prophecy.

Do you disagree with that?

If today I say "I predict that Germany will lose in World War Two" am I a prophet? If I say the twin towers will fall on Sept 11 2001, am I predicting the future?

It's just common sense, and basic definition of the word. Do you understand?

THE PROPHECY HAS TO HAPPEN BEFORE THE EVENT

If you can't see the irrefutable logic of that, then we truly have nothing to talk about.

Please respond with a simple yes or no to this question:

Do you understand and fully accept the logic of rule number 1. Do you accept that it's not a prophecy if it's describing something that already happened.

If you reply with a yes, we can go on to rule number 2

If you reply with a no, then I'm done with the conversation, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped posting on my thread.

It is clear that you have equated all prophecy with magical seeing powers such as looking into a crystal ball, reading tarot cards, and sances. Your ignorance betrays you and will continue to do so.

[salvation2011]

Well, I don't see it. Your entire thesis about Malachi sounds like total projection to me.

In order for it to be projection, I would have to have a personal experience with it... I do not. Its simply an example of the closest thing to prophecy I have read in the bible... and in order for it to be prophecy, the New Testament has to be truth, and that is debatable. If NT gospels are truth, then Jesus did do what Malachi prophesied about (not in the Christian bibles, though, the originally translated Hebrew Malachi). I may be the only one who can see this, but projection its not.

[Goat]

Well, I don't see it. Your entire thesis about Malachi sounds like total projection to me.

In order for it to be projection, I would have to have a personal experience with it... I do not. Its simply an example of the closest thing to prophecy I have read in the bible... and in order for it to be prophecy, the New Testament has to be truth, and that is debatable. If NT gospels are truth, then Jesus did do what Malachi prophesied about (not in the Christian bibles, though, the originally translated Hebrew Malachi). I may be the only one who can see this, but projection its not.

But, if you look at it in CONTEXT, and do not take the claims of the NT into account, it is saying something entirely different. It is not clearly predicting what the NT claims it does.

[sarabellum]

What evidence can you supply indicating that Prophecy needs to follow a certain format?
Specifically your list of rules...

Ok, that's a good question. Let's take my rules one at a time.

rule number 1: I believe that a prophecy should happen before the event it predicts, otherwise it's not a prophecy.

Do you disagree with that?

If today I say "I predict that Germany will lose in World War Two" am I a prophet? If I say the twin towers will fall on Sept 11 2001, am I predicting the future?

It's just common sense, and basic definition of the word. Do you understand?

THE PROPHECY HAS TO HAPPEN BEFORE THE EVENT

If you can't see the irrefutable logic of that, then we truly have nothing to talk about.

Please respond with a simple yes or no to this question:

Do you understand and fully accept the logic of rule number 1. Do you accept that it's not a prophecy if it's describing something that already happened.

If you reply with a yes, we can go on to rule number 2

If you reply with a no, then I'm done with the conversation, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped posting on my thread.

It seems like your getting frustrated..
For this I apologize...

I like your iron grip on the debate...
That seems fruitful...

Rule one fails....

If some one knows that an event has happened than of course saying it happened is not a prophecy....

That is logical...

What is not logical is to assume that some one who is unaware of an event can not receive a prophecy after the fact?
Or at the same time it is occurring? (If they are unaware of the occurence)

I'd give an example but it sounds like were done...

Well played?

[micatala]

If you reply with a no, then I'm done with the conversation, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped posting on my thread.

It is clear that you have equated all prophecy with magical seeing powers such as looking into a crystal ball, reading tarot cards, and sances. Your ignorance betrays you and will continue to do so.

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[salvation2011]

Well, I don't see it. Your entire thesis about Malachi sounds like total projection to me.

In order for it to be projection, I would have to have a personal experience with it... I do not. Its simply an example of the closest thing to prophecy I have read in the bible... and in order for it to be prophecy, the New Testament has to be truth, and that is debatable. If NT gospels are truth, then Jesus did do what Malachi prophesied about (not in the Christian bibles, though, the originally translated Hebrew Malachi). I may be the only one who can see this, but projection its not.

But, if you look at it in CONTEXT, and do not take the claims of the NT into account, it is saying something entirely different. It is not clearly predicting what the NT claims it does.

You are right... none of the Gospels said that he fulfilled Malachi... the NT and Jesus dont claim to have been a prediction of Malachi, bc it would be anti Jesus coming to die for sins on the cross... Im basing it on what Jesus actually said... not on someone trying to prove something. NT followers would never want to see this connection, which is why Im staying vague about it. Based on the content of anything written in red letters, he was testing listeners with his parables to discern what was Torah and what was being a partial follower/believer (in Torah). Christians are so indoctrinated with their belief that Jesus died on the cross for their sins (and so prideful that they are the "saved ones" for believing this... better than others, bc they are saved) that they see only what confirms that. That is fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Im just saying I would rather be the Torah follower of Jesus' parables than the ones who broke Torah and defiled Sabbath at what they thought was his suggestion to do so, which was actually a test for them to say "no, I wont defile the Sabbath." Or question... "do you presume us to worship another God other than God Himself?" People see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear.

I know you will want to say that I am doing the same, putting pieces together bc I want to see... but believe me... what I see, I dont want to see. I have many friends and family who are Christian and what I am seeing... if its real, is not good for them. I dont want to see this, I am seeing it. There is a difference. I sometimes wish that I could go back and not have read the bible at all now bc of what is revealed in there. It has been a learning experience beyond any of my graduate school training ever was. There is truth in the "ignorance is bliss" saying... to not know any of what I see now.