Are there any prophecies in the Bible?

[notachance]

It seems to me that the go-to "proof" that the Bible is divinely inspired are prophecies.

So I was hoping that somebody would give me an example of a prophecy that might prove the supernatural nature of the Bible.

I will write below a few criteria that I think any alleged prophecy must meet in order to qualify as "evidence of supernatural nature of the Bible"

1) The prophecy must have been demonstrably written down before the event it predicts.
A prophecy is a statement about the future, not about the past.

For example, if I wrote today, in 2011, "I hereby make the prophecy that in 2008, Barack Obama will be elected President of the United States", that is NOT a prophecy, because I'm "predicting" an event that actually already happened.

Similarly, if a 350 AD manuscript (for example the Codex Sinaiticus) talked about some battle that took place in 600BC, that wouldn't be a prediction, it would be a description of something that happened almost 1000 years earlier.

2) A prophecy must have demonstrably actually been made
An example of scenario that would NOT count as a valid prophecy would one where I write down today "10 years before he died, John Lennon told an anonymous author that he would die by being shot in the head". There is no way of verifying that John Lennon ever said that, so it's not a valid prophecy.

3) A predicted event must be reliably documented.
For example, if I said "I predict that tonight I will dream about eating ice cream" and then the next day I say "The prophecy came true! I did dream about ice cream", that would not be an accurate prophecy because it was not reliably documented. Nobody other than me knows if it's actually true that I dreamed about ice-cream.

4) A prophecy must be specific enough that it cannot be adaptable to multiple scenarios that are somewhat likely to happen eventually.
For example if I wrote "There will be a war between Christians and Muslims in the next 100 years", then I'm not making a supernatural prophecy, just an educated guess given the nature of our international relations. In order for it to even be considered as a prophecy, it would have to be something like "On March 2nd 2076, the United States will begin a campaign of drone attacks in Iran, starting with a 3:30 am raid on a military base 20 miles north of Tehran".

Another example of what would not be a prophecy would be something like "the twin towers that collapsed on 9-11 will eventually be rebuilt"

5) In order for a prophecy to be considered proof of the supernatural nature of the Bible, there has to be no other reasonable way to explaining it than by supernatural means.
If you cannot prove that purely natural explanations (chance? self-fulfilling prophecy, forgery) truly cannot account for the prophecy, then your belief in the supernatural cause of the prophecy is no more than a faith statement, and if you are using that do justify your faith, you're engaging in circular logic ("I believe in this baseless claim, because it's supported by another baseless claim").

6) An accurate prophecy cannot be considered evidence of the supernatural if it is surrounded by inaccurate prophecies.
For example if I wrote today the following statements:
"Obama will be elected in 2012"
"Pawlenty will be elected in 2012"
"Romney will be elected in 2012"
"Palin will be elected in 2012"
"Gingrich will be elected in 2012"

And one of them turned out to be correct, that would prove nothing!

7) A prophecy can only be considered evidence of the supernatural if it predicts something that is extremely unlikely.
For example this chart shows that over the last 117 years, in Seattle it has rained on August 2nd 13 times. That means that there is 11.1% chance that it will rain in Seattle on August 2nd of any given year. So if I wrote the prophecy that "On Aug 2nd 2154 it will rain in Seattle", that would be an accurate prediction, but nonetheless not evidence of supernatural powers, simply evidence of the statistical fact that I had a 11.1% chance to be right.

8) The prophecy cannot be an expression of something that many people want to see happen, because the people's will is what drives the prophecy to be fulfilled in that case, and not a supernatural power.
For example, if Martin Luther King had said "I predict that one day a black man will be US President", that would not be the kind of prediction that would prove the supernatural, because in saying that, MLK would just be verbalizing a wish that was to some degree shared by millions of blacks and whites alike. It was simple social pressure from these millions that eventually caused the prophecy to be "fulfilled". If Hillary Clinton said "One day a woman will be President" she will, by saying it, inspire people to try to make that happen. It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.


It's almost 3am and I am a little tired. I may have to add additional bullet points later. It may also be that there is some redundancy, and that the list could be condensed while retaining it's purpose. But I think this is a good start.

Here are my two questions:

1) Do you agree that the requirements above are reasonable, if not explain why not

2) Can you think of any Bible prophecy that meets the requirements above?

(please don't link or quote 100 different prophecies, and don't then leave it to me to look them all up and debunk them all. Start by quoting the SINGLE MOST CONCLUSIVE example of a prophecy, and we can talk about that. Once we've debated it, we can move on to additional examples)

[Zzyzx]

.

As long as you don't know the outcome of the event...

Its fair...

If an anonymous person CLAIMS to not know the outcome (which cannot be verified), do you accept that "it's fair"?

The chance for manipulation exists of course...

Agreed, manipulation, cheating, lying are all possible. How would you know since their bet was recorded after the event?

Would you tend to trust that a little less than if the bet was recorded BEFORE the event?

Likewise, a "prophesy" made or recorded after the supposed event is not regarded as trustworthy (except by those who want or need to believe).

But thats not my problem?

It IS your problem if you are betting, particularly on a matter of importance.

[sarabellum]

I agree for the most part...(Keep in mind that I am in the Devils Advocate role. Pinch hitting for the other team.)

Hi Z!

If an anonymous person CLAIMS to not know the outcome (which cannot be verified), do you accept that "its fair"?

The potential of manipulation has no bearing on whether a statement is true? (fair)
It is to be considered on the back end...

It may color the finding but it doesn't change the reality of the find in any way...

The method of finding a potential prophecy (think rule 1) is separate from the method of determining the level of its credibility...

To exclude potential prophecys because they do not follow a trustworthy pattern or format is to invite the possibility of missing out on a positive result? (A true prophecy)

Is that fair?

[Goat]

I agree for the most part...(Keep in mind that I am in the Devils Advocate role. Pinch hitting for the other team.)

Hi Z!

If an anonymous person CLAIMS to not know the outcome (which cannot be verified), do you accept that "its fair"?

The potential of manipulation has no bearing on whether a statement is true? (fair)
It is to be considered on the back end...

It may color the finding but it doesn't change the reality of the find in any way...

The method of finding a potential prophecy (think rule 1) is separate from the method of determining the level of its credibility...

To exclude potential prophecys because they do not follow a trustworthy pattern or format is to invite the possibility of missing out on a positive result? (A true prophecy)

Is that fair?

No. It is not. The problem with the claimed prophecies, they either are very vague as to mean just about anything, mistranslated to be a prophecy when it is not intended to be one, or taken out of context.

Either that, or it's after the fact.

Since there seems to be so much fraud with prophecy (as in prediction of the future) , it has to be shown to be specific enough, before the fact, and not 'shoe horned' into place by taking other phrases out of context.

[notachance]

I was thinking of another way of arguing for the absurdity of the prophecy argument:

Can anybody name ANY book that doesn't have at least one phrase in it that could be construed as a prophecy of at least equal validity as the ones in the Bible?

[sarabellum]

All around greetings...

I'll try to come at this from another direction...(simular vein)

If I follow Notachances rules...

Every alleged prophecy in the bible will be discarded as possibly contaminated...
(Not meeting the criteria of the rules)

That leaves us with a zero value/no sample size...

How do you analyze a zero value?
Does a zero value prove that there is no prophecy in the bible?

[notachance]

Heya Sarabellum,
I applaud your valiant effort as a devil's advocate (or God's advocate in this case) but this latest argument is also fatally flawed

If I follow Notachances rules...

Every alleged prophecy in the bible will be discarded as possibly contaminated...
(Not meeting the criteria of the rules)

They are not discarded. Every single one is simply classified as "non-supernatural prophecy".

That leaves us with a zero value/no sample size...

Incorrect. The sample size remains the same. About 2500.

There are about 2500 entries in the "alleged prophecy" sample. When analyzed and tallied up, you end up with ZERO in the "supernatural prophecy" column, and 2500 in the "not supernatural prophecy" column.

The fact there is a zero value in one of the columns is a complete non-issue.

How do you analyze a zero value?

The same way you analyze any other integer.

Does a zero value prove that there is no prophecy in the bible?

Yes.

A 3 value in the "supernatural prophecy" column would mean there are 3 supernatural prophecies (and 2497 natural prophecies)

A 2 value in the "supernatural prophecy" column would mean there are 2 supernatural prophecies (and 2498 natural prophecies)

A 1 value in the "supernatural prophecy" column would mean there is 1 supernatural prophecy (and 2499 natural prophecies)

A ZERO value in the "supernatural prophecy" column would mean there are ZERO supernatural prophecies (and 2500 natural prophecies)

What' the problem.

That's true of any classification of any property.

Imagine you get a group of 2500 people and see how many are strong enough to lift over their head a rock that weighs 5000 pounds with their bare hands.

A 3 value in the "can lift it" column would mean that 3 people can lift it and 2497 cant.

A 2 value in the "can lift it" column would mean that 2 people can lift it and 2498 cant.

A 1 value in the "can lift it" column would mean that 1 person can lift it and 2499 cant.

A ZERO value in the "can lift it" column would mean that ZERO people can lift it and 2500 cant.

Does a zero value prove that none of the 2500 people could lift the rock? Yes it does.

Does a zero value prove that there is no supernatural prophecy in the bible?

Yes it does

[sarabellum]

Heya Sarabellum,
I applaud your valiant effort as a devil's advocate (or God's advocate in this case) but this latest argument is also fatally flawed

If I follow Notachances rules...

Every alleged prophecy in the bible will be discarded as possibly contaminated...
(Not meeting the criteria of the rules)

They are not discarded. Every single one is simply classified as "non-supernatural prophecy".

That leaves us with a zero value/no sample size...

Incorrect. The sample size remains the same. About 2500.

There are about 2500 entries in the "alleged prophecy" sample. When analyzed and tallied up, you end up with ZERO in the "supernatural prophecy" column, and 2500 in the "not supernatural prophecy" column.

The fact there is a zero value in one of the columns is a complete non-issue.

How do you analyze a zero value?

The same way you analyze any other integer.

Does a zero value prove that there is no prophecy in the bible?

Yes.

A 3 value in the "supernatural prophecy" column would mean there are 3 supernatural prophecies (and 2497 natural prophecies)

A 2 value in the "supernatural prophecy" column would mean there are 2 supernatural prophecies (and 2498 natural prophecies)

A 1 value in the "supernatural prophecy" column would mean there is 1 supernatural prophecy (and 2499 natural prophecies)

A ZERO value in the "supernatural prophecy" column would mean there are ZERO supernatural prophecies (and 2500 natural prophecies)

What' the problem.

That's true of any classification of any property.

Imagine you get a group of 2500 people and see how many are strong enough to lift over their head a rock that weighs 5000 pounds with their bare hands.

A 3 value in the "can lift it" column would mean that 3 people can lift it and 2497 cant.

A 2 value in the "can lift it" column would mean that 2 people can lift it and 2498 cant.

A 1 value in the "can lift it" column would mean that 1 person can lift it and 2499 cant.

A ZERO value in the "can lift it" column would mean that ZERO people can lift it and 2500 cant.

Does a zero value prove that none of the 2500 people could lift the rock? Yes it does.

Does a zero value prove that there is no supernatural prophecy in the bible?

Yes it does

I would argue that your premise is flawed...


How do you verify the super natural/divine component of any prophecy in the bible?
Prove God?
Disprove God?

As far as I know you can't...

As in no one can...
All prophecy would then fall into an empty set...

Unverifiable...
Zero value...


Even if in theory I could some how navigate your rules and come out the other side with a prophecy that might stand up to your criticism...
The divine component of the prophecy would be unknowable...

As far as I can tell...

Prophecy/No prophecy is a matter of faith....


Anywho....

Thanks for taking it easy on me gang!

I think I will bow out and let those with a stake in the game pick up the slack..
Hopefully I wasn't an embarrassment...

Made me think!

[notachance]

Heya Sarabellum,
I applaud your valiant effort as a devil's advocate (or God's advocate in this case) but this latest argument is also fatally flawed

If I follow Notachances rules...

Every alleged prophecy in the bible will be discarded as possibly contaminated...
(Not meeting the criteria of the rules)

They are not discarded. Every single one is simply classified as "non-supernatural prophecy".

That leaves us with a zero value/no sample size...

Incorrect. The sample size remains the same. About 2500.

There are about 2500 entries in the "alleged prophecy" sample. When analyzed and tallied up, you end up with ZERO in the "supernatural prophecy" column, and 2500 in the "not supernatural prophecy" column.

The fact there is a zero value in one of the columns is a complete non-issue.

How do you analyze a zero value?

The same way you analyze any other integer.

Does a zero value prove that there is no prophecy in the bible?

Yes.

A 3 value in the "supernatural prophecy" column would mean there are 3 supernatural prophecies (and 2497 natural prophecies)

A 2 value in the "supernatural prophecy" column would mean there are 2 supernatural prophecies (and 2498 natural prophecies)

A 1 value in the "supernatural prophecy" column would mean there is 1 supernatural prophecy (and 2499 natural prophecies)

A ZERO value in the "supernatural prophecy" column would mean there are ZERO supernatural prophecies (and 2500 natural prophecies)

What' the problem.

That's true of any classification of any property.

Imagine you get a group of 2500 people and see how many are strong enough to lift over their head a rock that weighs 5000 pounds with their bare hands.

A 3 value in the "can lift it" column would mean that 3 people can lift it and 2497 cant.

A 2 value in the "can lift it" column would mean that 2 people can lift it and 2498 cant.

A 1 value in the "can lift it" column would mean that 1 person can lift it and 2499 cant.

A ZERO value in the "can lift it" column would mean that ZERO people can lift it and 2500 cant.

Does a zero value prove that none of the 2500 people could lift the rock? Yes it does.

Does a zero value prove that there is no supernatural prophecy in the bible?

Yes it does

I would argue that your premise is flawed...


How do you verify the super natural/divine component of any prophecy in the bible?
Prove God?
Disprove God?

As far as I know you can't...

As in no one can...
All prophecy would then fall into an empty set...

Unverifiable...
Zero value...


Even if in theory I could some how navigate your rules and come out the other side with a prophecy that might stand up to your criticism...
The divine component of the prophecy would be unknowable...

As far as I can tell...

Prophecy/No prophecy is a matter of faith....


Anywho....

Thanks for taking it easy on me gang!

I think I will bow out and let those with a stake in the game pick up the slack..
Hopefully I wasn't an embarrassment...

Made me think!

Sure, in the ultimate sense, you can never be sure. Theists cannot prove God, and atheists cannot disprove God, Santa, Bigfoot, Allah, Thor, Zeus or Humpty Dumpty.

But if you dial it back from the ultimate philosophical level where nothing is either right or wrong, what you're left with is this:

Copies of copies, of translation of copies of stuff bronze age barbarians scribbled on sheep skin. And every single one of these scribblings can be fully explained purely by natural means, just like stone age scribblings on caves can, just like the content of last week's TV Guide can.

You'd have to be fundamentally deluded to think that somehow a supernatural explanation is necessary, when a completely logical fully natural explanation is readily available and answers all the questions.

[arian]

Sure, in the ultimate sense, you can never be sure. Theists cannot prove God, and atheists cannot disprove God, Santa, Bigfoot, Allah, Thor, Zeus or Humpty Dumpty.

But if you dial it back from the ultimate philosophical level where nothing is either right or wrong, what you're left with is this:

Copies of copies, of translation of copies of stuff bronze age barbarians scribbled on sheep skin. And every single one of these scribblings can be fully explained purely by natural means, just like stone age scribblings on caves can, just like the content of last week's TV Guide can.

You'd have to be fundamentally deluded to think that somehow a supernatural explanation is necessary, when a completely logical fully natural explanation is readily available and answers all the questions.

I agree with you Zzyzx, if we look for 'supernatural answers', we get evolution. It is when we look to and see God (as in a mirror) when we get the truth, or the real answers.

"The things that we see (this physical realm) is made up of things we cannot see" (God) which means that God is more real then what we see.

"Now we see as in a mirror, .." what does that mean?

When I look in the mirror, I see a reflection, an image.
God said: "Let us make man in our own image"

When I try to reach in that mirror, I hit the glass reflecting what I see.

I know that God is not in the supernatural, for He is real. Supernatural are ghosts, demonic beings, even the dictionary says that.

If we are created in the 'image' of God, we should be able to see something of God, but not be able to touch Him just like when I reach in the mirror.

We were created of dust, so the earth is us. Now if the earth is us (dust), then everything on earth is is us too, and every plant and creature including man is of the dust.

(help me out here, I can't seem to explain what I see and how I see it. I need to word it better)

Our image (God) is a Spirit, and we can only worship Him (acknowledge that He Is) in the Spirit. Maybe this is like the 'glass' between us and God!?!

How about this, we are created of the earth (body) and given the breath of life (soul). Then man (dust) became a 'living soul'.

Maybe our soul is the one that can go beyond that glass in the mirror? I believe so. That would explain us seeing that Spiritual realm as in a mirror, and when we drop this physical back to dust, our 'Living Soul' is freed and becomes a Spirit as God is and that glass between the 'image' and God is removed! ? ! ?

Once we die in the flesh, we, that is our soul goes to Paradise to wait for the end of this physical realm, called 'that Day'. When that Day comes, God will take us (our soul) and give us a 'spiritual' body which will no longer have that glass barrier between our bodies, but we will become members of the Spiritual realm.

"We shall have New Bodies" the Bible says we shall have New Resurrected bodies. What else could this mean but that the Physical bodies of ours will be 'renewed' into Spiritual bodies. Our soul (who we are) will join in with that new spiritual-body and we will become eternal beings.

Once we are changed, and I understand it will take about a blink of an eye's time, then Jesus will appear, Judgement-seats will be set up, then He will resurrect the wicked from hell who have already made their choice where they want to spend eternity, and place them in the same kind of bodies that He prepared for us 'Believers', (since all humans were created in Gods image and all humans have been prepared New spiritual bodies)

Bound hand and foot, they will not be able to fly anywhere, but stand before the Judgement seat of Christ, and since they claimed 'self righteousness' and not needed the 'Blood of the Lamb', there will not be the Blood of Christ to redeem them, thus will be pronounced 'guilty' of all charges, since they refused even a Mediator (lawyer).

Remember all the 'tittles' Jesus, the Son of God received? One of them is 'Redeemer', and a 'slave' to sin needs to show his paper of redemption. If he has none, and no Advocate to represent him, his name will be there in the 'books' of all the damned.

Can you imagine standing there in this brand new eternal body, tied up and be given the judgement: "Away from me you workers of iniquity!" and be cast into everlasting pain (hurt of eternal separation from God, the hurt and pain of remembering all the evil deeds and pride of life we ever did) and be cast away from fellow humans and the Love of God, and knowing well that we did not do enough to even find Him, or as millions who didn't even bother to seek Him?

Can we say: We didn't hear of you? We didn't have the right info? The written witness you left us with were too old?

He will just ask us; "If you ever found a 2,000 year old treasure chest full of gold coins, would you leave it there because it's too old? The same with the Words in the Bible, were they not precious enough for you? But all the other garbage you read were? Fine. You may use all those books to make your case to set you free from the burden of your sins. If you make your case more logical then what I have left you in what you call the 'Bible', then I will set you free."

What would you answer friend? Will you go over your 'briefs' and pull out a statement from Buddha? Or from Mohammed, Joseph Smith, or maybe even Oprah?

[Zzyzx]

.
.

I agree with you Zzyzx,

What you quoted was from Notachance rather than Zzyzx (though I agree with much of what was said)

if we look for 'supernatural answers', we get evolution.

What, exactly, is "supernatural" about evolution?

Is it "supernatural" that many disease causing microorganisms develop resistance to antibiotics? That IS an example of evolution " genetic change through generations.

It is when we look to and see God (as in a mirror) when we get the truth, or the real answers.

How can it be SHOWN (not just claimed) that "we get truth" from "god"?

"The things that we see (this physical realm) is made up of things we cannot see" (God) which means that God is more real then what we see.

This is what is known as an unverified claim. Making such statements is preaching rather than debating -- and is more appropriate for Holy Huddle.

"Now we see as in a mirror, .." what does that mean?

When I look in the mirror, I see a reflection, an image.
God said: "Let us make man in our own image"

OH? You KNOW that "god" said that? Did you read it in a book of tales by ancient storytellers promoting their religion and telling what they THOUGHT ABOUT "god"? In other words, was the story by humans or by "gods"?

When I try to reach in that mirror, I hit the glass reflecting what I see.

I know that God is not in the supernatural, for He is real. Supernatural are ghosts, demonic beings, even the dictionary says that.

"Supernatural" is defined as "of, belonging to, having reference to, or proceeding from an order of existence beyond the physical universe that is observable, and capable of being experienced by ordinary means : transcending nature in degree and in kind or concerned with what transcends nature"

You contend that a "god" that is invisible, undetectable, transcending nature is NOT supernatural? What definition, exactly, are you using for "supernatural"

"Real" is defined as: "actually existing, occurring, or present in fact : corresponding to actuality".

Can you SHOW that "god" is real and not supernatural using actual definitions?

If we are created in the 'image' of God, we should be able to see something of God, but not be able to touch Him just like when I reach in the mirror.

IF is the operating term.

Those who wish to assume "god" can speculate about such matters.

We were created of dust, so the earth is us.

So goes the tale by ancient storytellers " that some prefer to believe rather than accept modern knowledge provided by actual study of nature and ourselves.

Now if the earth is us (dust), then everything on earth is is us too, and every plant and creature including man is of the dust.

Again, IF is the operating term.

(help me out here, I can't seem to explain what I see and how I see it. I need to word it better)

I cannot help explain that which makes no sense to me at all " that which appears to be pure speculation, opinion, and wishful thinking that cannot be shown to be true and accurate.

Our image (God) is a Spirit, and we can only worship Him (acknowledge that He Is) in the Spirit. Maybe this is like the 'glass' between us and God!?!

How about this, we are created of the earth (body) and given the breath of life (soul). Then man (dust) became a 'living soul'.

That is interesting speculation or wishful thinking.

<Snip more of the same>

He will just ask us; "If you ever found a 2,000 year old treasure chest full of gold coins, would you leave it there because it's too old?

Who asks? When? How do you know this is true?

The same with the Words in the Bible, were they not precious enough for you?

I will gladly exchange stacks of bibles for gold coins if anyone is interested.

But all the other garbage you read were? Fine. You may use all those books to make your case to set you free from the burden of your sins. If you make your case more logical then what I have left you in what you call the 'Bible', then I will set you free."

Evidently you are saying that other books are "garbage" but your favorite "bible" is "golden".

What would you answer friend?

My answer would be a question " Can you show me evidence (beyond opinion, speculation, testimonial, hearsay, and ancient tales " all of which are unreliable as "evidence") that indicates that one or more of the thousands of proposed "gods" is real and influences human affairs (and proposed "afterlives")?