Order of creation

Ragna · Post by **Ragna** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:09 pm

Shermana wrote:Go ahead and create one.

Let's debate the order of creation. I made a claim:

Ragna wrote:I say that Genesis, by itself, is not reliable, independently of which scientific theory is true. It's a mythical book, it has to be checked externally to see if it has some bearing on reality or none. Disproving evolution is not such a check, since aliens could be manipulating mutations via remote control and there could very well be no god in this scenario. Also, all of our modern science has disproved most of the creation myth (there's no water above the sky, the stars came first, then Sun then Earth, etc.).

Shermana claims that Genesis is in fact accurate because cyanobacteria cannot survive without an ozone layer. In her own words:

Shermana wrote:Well if you're not gonna debate Cyanobacteria, then kindly retract your claim that Genesis would be 0% reliable. Say that it's possibly reliable involving the order of plants first, sun second.

Are you aware that Genesis states plants first, sun second? That might clear up the confusion.

None of these arguments are non-sequitur.

It's just that when facts and evidence are presented that prove the countrary wrong, the goalposts get changed every time it seems.

Basically, there could be no such thing as plants before an ozone layer. Impossible.

Thus, Genesis Creationism is by default correct.

That would be evidence of "God".

If you don't accept this argument as valid, that's your problem.

Questions for debate:

1. Is this argument valid, constituting evidence?

2. Which came first, plants or the Sun?

3. Can cyanobacteria survive without an ozone layer?

4. Does this prove Genesis being accurate?

Shermana · Post by **Shermana** » Mon May 09, 2011 9:56 pm

Is this page wrong too?

http://hubpages.com/hub/Photosynthesis-and-Early-Earth

An Earth without oxygen is highly unlikely to contain oceans. Without oxygen there is no ozone layer and without an ozone layer to protect ultra violet rays from entering the Earths atmosphere, the oceans are expected to evaporate. But why would they evaporate? The intensity of ultra violet rays are so high that they have enough energy to break apart hydrogen and oxygen bonds in water molecules. The oxygen molecules will end up reacting with rocks and hydrogen gas floats away into space.

100%atheist · Post by **100%atheist** » Tue May 10, 2011 3:13 am

Shermana wrote:Is this page wrong too?

http://hubpages.com/hub/Photosynthesis-and-Early-Earth
An Earth without oxygen is highly unlikely to contain oceans. Without oxygen there is no ozone layer and without an ozone layer to protect ultra violet rays from entering the Earths atmosphere, the oceans are expected to evaporate. But why would they evaporate? The intensity of ultra violet rays are so high that they have enough energy to break apart hydrogen and oxygen bonds in water molecules. The oxygen molecules will end up reacting with rocks and hydrogen gas floats away into space.

Shermana,

I am sorry to tell you, but this one isn't good either. I wonder how you find such pages ...

There are several problems.
Problem 1:
One needs a photon energy of greater than ~5.1 eV in order to break H2O bonds. This means that 240 nm wavelength radiation (or shorter) is needed. And the fraction of such extreme UV in the Sun light is not really abundant.

Problem 2:
If dissociation by UV light is practical (which is needed for evaporation) then it would be immediately used for hydrogen production (which is currently expensive). Since we see no commercial use of or interest to this effect, it is probably not so strong, or does not exist at all. Actually, the probability of water photo dissociation is quickly reduced at wavelengths above ~200 nm

Problem 3 [an argument killer

]
If the UV light of the Sun leads to water dissociation with oxygen being released into the atmosphere, the Ozone layer would be formed with no help from any biological organisms.

So now you have two choices:
Choice 1:
You stick to the argument about water photodissociation and then your Cyanobacteria argument is irrelevant.

Choice 2:
You quietly abandon the idea of UV-initiated water dissociation.

P.S. touche....

In addition.
This is from your sited page:
"The intensity of ultra violet rays are so high that they have enough energy to break apart hydrogen and oxygen bonds in water molecules."
I think you have a misconception about light, that more intensity = more energy. This is plain wrong. And whoever wrote that webpage does not understand it. The energy of the radiation is inversely related to the wavelength, and the intensity is basically just the number of photons coming to an area in a unit of time. I hope this isn't too hard to understand.

nygreenguy · Post by **nygreenguy** » Tue May 10, 2011 8:22 am

Just as a few notes.

Currently, higher plant have 2 photosystems which operate at 2 primary wavelengths. 680 and 700. (psII is 680 and psI is 700). This is the red and far red part of the spectrum.

Some of the earliest photosynthetic organisms are green sulfur bacteria and cyanobacteria. Green sulfur bacteria can live over 1 mile deep in the ocean and photosynthesize using the glow from thermal vents. One mile down, there is no visible light, no infa red and no UV that can penetrate.

However, this is primarily a photosystem 1 complex and it does not produce oxygen. It does show that there was photosynthesis before the great release of oxygen.

nygreenguy · Post by **nygreenguy** » Tue May 10, 2011 11:04 am

Oops. I forgot to add in 450nm range

Shermana · Post by **Shermana** » Tue May 10, 2011 2:43 pm

100%, can you provide a link to back those claims so I can get the facts from the source on why there'd actually be Oceans in the first place before the Ozone? Is there a link that distinctly says "The Oceans would not evaporate without the Ozone"?

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Tue May 10, 2011 3:28 pm

Shermana wrote:100%, can you provide a link to back those claims so I can get the facts from the source on why there'd actually be Oceans in the first place before the Ozone? Is there a link that distinctly says "The Oceans would not evaporate without the Ozone"?

You seem to be forgetting one or two things here. Water is a UV absorber and also contains a lot of oxygen. If water evaporates then you have the entire atmosphere increasingly absorbing UV before it even reaches the water or if you want to go with UV light disassociating water then you have the ozone layer being created without any biological help. Everything in this world gets recycled, if more water gets evaporated that does not mean it goes away it's just going through a phase shift from liquid to a gas. When you evaporate water you are putting it into the atmosphere which in turn increases UV absorption, Do you think that a few tens of kilometers of very humid air might have an effect on UV levels at the surface?

100%atheist · Post by **100%atheist** » Tue May 10, 2011 3:31 pm

Shermana wrote:100%, can you provide a link to back those claims so I can getthe facts from the source on why there'd actually be Oceans in the first place before the Ozone? Is there a link that distinctly says "The Oceans would not evaporate without the Ozone"?

Shermana,
claim #1 is basically the fact that the energy of water dissociation is 118 kcal or so per mole. You can use any basic physics textbook to convert this energy in eV. You will get about 5.1 eV per molecule. In order to wavelengths into energy you use can use the relationship: energy[eV] = 1250/wavelength[nm].

claim #2 about commercial use does not seem to need support. If you show me a SINGLE commercial production method of hydrogen based on photodissociation using UV-B light, I will gladly retract my claim.

claim #3 about the rapid decrease of the photodissociation cross-section at wavelengths >200 nm is based on peer-reviewed literature that I looked at specifically for this thread. Do you want to know specific papers? Many of them are not free.

I doubt there are so many [strange] people to write about the impossibility of the Earth Ocean evaporation. I am not going to do search for you especially because you have NO (ZERO, NONE) literature supporting the possibility of the Earth's Ocean to evaporate. So first please present a single PEER-REVIEWED scientific publication that distinctly says "The Oceans would evaporate without the Ozone". Websites like personal blogs etc. are not good, please understand this at last. I, you, anybody, can write any nonsense on a website. Look for the sources that are examined by peer experts in the field.

100%atheist · Post by **100%atheist** » Tue May 10, 2011 3:33 pm

Wyvern wrote:
Shermana wrote:100%, can you provide a link to back those claims so I can get the facts from the source on why there'd actually be Oceans in the first place before the Ozone? Is there a link that distinctly says "The Oceans would not evaporate without the Ozone"?
You seem to be forgetting one or two things here. Water is a UV absorber and also contains a lot of oxygen. If water evaporates then you have the entire atmosphere increasingly absorbing UV before it even reaches the water or if you want to go with UV light disassociating water then you have the ozone layer being created without any biological help. Everything in this world gets recycled, if more water gets evaporated that does not mean it goes away it's just going through a phase shift from liquid to a gas. When you evaporate water you are putting it into the atmosphere which in turn increases UV absorption, Do you think that a few tens of kilometers of very humid air might have an effect on UV levels at the surface?

I am afraid now that Shermana does not actually distinguish between evaporation and dissociation....
Shermana, do you?

Shermana · Post by **Shermana** » Tue May 10, 2011 3:56 pm

Evaporation = Boiling point is reached and molecules start colliding with each other as they move quickly.

Photodissociation = The breakdown of compounds via strong light.

So why didn't Ocean Evaporation create the Ozone?

Ragna · Post by **Ragna** » Tue May 10, 2011 4:13 pm

Shermana wrote:Evaporation = Boiling point is reached and molecules start colliding with each other as they move quickly.

Photodissociation = The breakdown of compounds via strong light.

So why didn't Ocean Evaporation create the Ozone?

I don't know if it might have contributed, but the great oxygenation event which took place in the precambrian 2.4 billion years ago was quite certainly of biological origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxygenation_Event

And evaporation is entirely different from boiling (you're confusing it with vaporization, a more general term for the liquid-gas change). Another scientific distinction to be known:

Wikipedia wrote:Evaporation is a type of vaporization of a liquid that occurs only on the surface of a liquid. The other type of vaporization is boiling, which, instead, occurs on the entire mass of the liquid. Evaporation is also part of the water cycle.

Evaporation does not need the boiling point, is slower and only acts on the surface. Water can disappear from a glass on a sunny day without reaching 100 C.