Does Romans 9 teach predestination?

[SpiritQuickens]

http://www.examiner.com/user-dpcalder

Read vv. 1-23 of Romans 9 for yourself, and then, if you feel so moved, consult my series of essays on the question. I've posted the the first 10 parts, and have quite a few more to go, which I will post within the next couple of days. Check up and check back if you're interested. Feel free to comment on my posts as much as you want.

[JohnPaul]

http://www.examiner.com/user-dpcalder

Read vv. 1-23 of Romans 9 for yourself, and then, if you feel so moved, consult my series of essays on the question. I've posted the the first 10 parts, and have quite a few more to go, which I will post within the next couple of days. Check up and check back if you're interested. Feel free to comment on my posts as much as you want.

This Bible reference only says that God has the POWER to do as he pleases, but says nothing about God being good, just, or right in doing so. This very clearly seems to support my claim, made elsewhere, that the God described in the Bible is inherently EVIL.

John

[JehovahsWitness]

http://www.examiner.com/user-dpcalder

Read vv. 1-23 of Romans 9 for yourself, and then, if you feel so moved, consult my series of essays on the question. I've posted the the first 10 parts, and have quite a few more to go, which I will post within the next couple of days. Check up and check back if you're interested. Feel free to comment on my posts as much as you want.

No, I don't think so.

ROMANS 9: 19- 21 THE POTTER & THE MOLD

The bible on serveral occassions likens God to a potter and humans like the mold. Far from indicating that humans have no free will it is merely illustrating how vastly superior God is to humans. Paul introduces the thought by saying "who has withstood his express will?" He is thus showing that, like clay in a potter's hand, his will or purpose will be fulfilled and any "stubborn lumps" that fail to comply with be thrown out.

ROMANS 9: 22-24 VESSELS OF WRATH FIT FOR DESTRUCTION

Paul doesn't name individuals but identifies GROUPS that will be destroyed, he classifies those that show a defiant rebellious spirit as "vessels of wrath" and shows that God has a chosen people that as a group are classfied as "vessels of mercy". This doesn't mean individuals are "made" or created and their fate sealed, rather that God has predetermined to destroy the wicked and anyone that choses to defy Him will indeed face this end and determined to save obedient humans and anyone that choses to comply to his standards can be in the latter. God "fixed" the groups WE decide (though our actions) which group we will be put in.

[Choir Loft]

http://www.examiner.com/user-dpcalder

Read vv. 1-23 of Romans 9 for yourself, and then, if you feel so moved, consult my series of essays on the question. I've posted the the first 10 parts, and have quite a few more to go, which I will post within the next couple of days. Check up and check back if you're interested. Feel free to comment on my posts as much as you want.

The Roman passage you cite refers to the just. It does not refer to anyone else.

Again, the passage speaks of those who are separate or sanctified before God. The use of the word 'adoption' in verse 4 is a clue.

The entire passage is an example of what is called 'single predestination'.
The theology of double predestination implies that God decided before their birth who would be justified and who would not.
The theology of single predestination implies that God has a pattern of response reserved for those who are 'added in' as His children.

What is adoption? A child of natural birth is part of a family by accident, not design. An adopted child is one who is added in by choice.

If the passage were a reference to double predestination, there would be no reference to adoption or choice. It is therefore a reference to single predestination; that all who accept Christ are predestined to be conformed into His image.

Those who choose not - have their reward in the flames.

Choose wisely oh man.

[Filthy Tugboat]

http://www.examiner.com/user-dpcalder

Read vv. 1-23 of Romans 9 for yourself, and then, if you feel so moved, consult my series of essays on the question. I've posted the the first 10 parts, and have quite a few more to go, which I will post within the next couple of days. Check up and check back if you're interested. Feel free to comment on my posts as much as you want.

No, I don't think so.

ROMANS 9: 19- 21 THE POTTER & THE MOLD

The bible on serveral occassions likens God to a potter and humans like the mold. Far from indicating that humans have no free will it is merely illustrating how vastly superior God is to humans. Paul introduces the thought by saying "who has withstood his express will?" He is thus showing that, like clay in a potter's hand, his will or purpose will be fulfilled and any "stubborn lumps" that fail to comply with be thrown out.

The quote in Romans 9 did not mention anything about stubborn lumps. Also, with the comment of "who has withstood his express will?" It seems that Paul is making it clear that God's will, whatever God wants, will happen and nothing can stop it happening. Also, the comments about God making some pottery for noble use and other pottery for common use indicates that he plays an active role in forming the pottery and then he makes it clear that we are talking about us becoming something specifically because of God with the denied question of, "Why did you make me like this?"

ROMANS 9: 22-24 VESSELS OF WRATH FIT FOR DESTRUCTION

Paul doesn't name individuals but identifies GROUPS that will be destroyed, he classifies those that show a defiant rebellious spirit as "vessels of wrath" and shows that God has a chosen people that as a group are classfied as "vessels of mercy". This doesn't mean individuals are "made" or created and their fate sealed, rather that God has predetermined to destroy the wicked and anyone that choses to defy Him will indeed face this end and determined to save obedient humans and anyone that choses to comply to his standards can be in the latter. God "fixed" the groups WE decide (though our actions) which group we will be put in.

Where in the literature do you draw the conclusion that the vessels of wrath, prepared in advance for destruction, are simply those that show a defiant rebellious spirit? I also noticed in this bit you left out the comments in Romans 9 where Paul specifically states that the objects of wrath and those of mercy were prepared in advance for destruction and for glory.

[micatala]

http://www.examiner.com/user-dpcalder

Read vv. 1-23 of Romans 9 for yourself, and then, if you feel so moved, consult my series of essays on the question. I've posted the the first 10 parts, and have quite a few more to go, which I will post within the next couple of days. Check up and check back if you're interested. Feel free to comment on my posts as much as you want.

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[Hobbes]

This Bible reference only says that God has the POWER to do as he pleases, but says nothing about God being good, just, or right in doing so. This very clearly seems to support my claim, made elsewhere, that the God described in the Bible is inherently EVIL.

John

Just because God is sovereign and you don't like what He does, that doesn't make Him evil.

[Goat]

This Bible reference only says that God has the POWER to do as he pleases, but says nothing about God being good, just, or right in doing so. This very clearly seems to support my claim, made elsewhere, that the God described in the Bible is inherently EVIL.

John

Just because God is sovereign and you don't like what He does, that doesn't make Him evil.

Of course, one problem with the attitude of this post is the submission to authority , (and of course, the lack of any evidence that 'God' does anything.

"God did it, it must be good" is one of the most irrational reasons out there. It seems to to show a lack of independent evaluation and judgment

[Jacob Simonsky]

The mistakes we make that lead us to these kinds of questions are two. First we imagine God as a being just like us only all powerful. Second we have free will but it seems as though God already knows how we will choose.

God is not a person but a power source. A source from which all comes. And, no, there is no evil anywhere in creation. Not really. What we call evil is only the result of fear and fear of ignorance. These are easily dealt with. Regarding predestiny lets go ahead and, for convenience, say that God is a person and that He knows all. OK the reason He knows all is because on His plane of existence, which is far removed from any we know of, there is no time. Everything simply is. Remember "before ..... was, I am"? The Father "is" without time. So everything that has, is, or will happen can be known. We have trouble with this but remember we are here and God is there. So God knows but from our perspective we have freedom to choose. Remember always that it is we, and not God, who walks our paths in life. We err greatly when we assume that what we do makes no difference. Just because God already knows doesn't mean it already happened.

Everything in creation is working just the way God intends. That we do not understand has no bearing on truth.

[Hubert Humphrey]

Does Romans 9 teach predestination?

You're darned tootin' it does! As so does the rest of the bible.
Think about it: how could God be all powerful if we had truly-free will, or what is the certainty of biblical end-time prophecies if the future is subject to the whim of our decisions?