Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

[Christianity in crisis?]

I believe same sex marriage is not a church issue when it comes to the law. Christians who try to ban same sex marriage are wrong, and should be consistent with the separation of church and state. BTW... I am an evangelical Christian against forms of legalized discrimination.

[Autodidact]

I disagree, it is tied in a small way to religion. Here is my view of it:

Same Sex marriage is immoral because it is against Gods will. Should it be legal, yes. I have no right to impose my belief on another person and vice versa. The reason it is tied in with religion is this. If gay marriage laws are passed there should be a law on the legislation that does not require all churches to mary gays. Churches should decide for themselves whether they will marry gays or not. I can see a gay couple suing a church if they wont marry them on the basis of discrimination.

No proposed law authorizing same-sex marriage has ever required any church to perform any marriage, nor, under our constitution, could it. The recent New York law specifically excluded churches from being required to perform such marriages, just to make this clear. Churches have always, in every state, had this right. The right of churches to marry or not marry whom they wish is not in dispute, and has never been the issue.

Right now, in 44 states, churches do NOT have the right to have the same-sex marriages they perform recognized by the state. Legalizing same-sex marriage would remedy this; it would not require any church to perform any marriage ever.

[Autodidact]

Everything, because all our belief systems and opinions are grounded in some source of authority. Your first response to the issue was" same sex marriage is against God's will". Okay, how do you determine the will of God? To determine what is moral is immoral is grounded in something.

If you really want to discuss dogma and our different beliefs, lets move it to a different thread. If we state any dogma in here you will be challenged to prove the existence of a god, then prove how scripture is literal or not, ect. Its the same thing each time.

Yes, those annoying rational people, always expecting people, even religious people, to support their statements. It's darned frustrating for people who expect their beliefs to be accepted regardless of what they're based on.

[Autodidact]

God the Father was Adam who was created; Men on the moon according to Bringham Young... all LDS related beliefs? At least we can use Scripture to support polygamy. Did you know Abraham married his half-sister (blood related)? Back to the thread topic. ... the Mormon propositon agenda to block same sex marriage is driven by the theological distncives of Mormonism... which are mutually exclusive from historic Christianity. If Evangelical Christians understood this point, then they would think twice for working with Mormons on banning sex sex marriage. I think it's funny for religious people to legistate laws based on religious beliefs. If we want to go that route as religious believers, we should make the 10 commandments as mandatory law for our society.

Again, thats not our beliefs. Yes we do differ from other christian beliefs on our view of salvation. You seem to be downtalking my religion a lot here, your focusing on what my church is doing rather than trying to discuss the actual OP. My respnse to the OP had nothing to do with mormon beliefs but rather with the chances of discriminatory lawsuits.

Religious laws have no place in the government. Yes, the LDS church's proposition agenda is driven by our beliefs, is that no different than any other religion?

Well, does every other religion spend millions of its parishioners money to combat other people's equal rights?

[Autodidact]

My religion is fighting for their beliefs, they are allowed to do whatever they want. Then if god is in all governments according to his will, then how is the conflict over homosexuality not a church issue?

Your religion believes that people who do not belong to your religion should be forced to follow its beliefs?

[Autodidact]

Same sex marriage is a Church issue. It was first initiated by the church and has for centuries been guided by the church. If it wasn't then why are we having this conversation. What has happened is that the major part of the Western population has deterred away from the Christian culture. So much so that we can now say that we are no longer a Christian society. To put this in perspective i myself am a Christian man who places marriage 2nd below God. So in saying this, before i get married i look into the biblical perspectives of marriage so that i will get it right in relationship with God and my partner and my children, Biblically. I don't have sex as i am waiting for marriage and i see it as a covernant arrangement with God. To get married is a form of worship for me. So in saying this i have a Chistian perspective, but compare this to one of the cultures that lived next to the Israelites who worshiped and practiced their way of life on top of hills and at home. They practiced orgies and homosexual acts while cross dressing and being drunk and so much more. These deferences was mentioned and portrayed and ultimately contrasted throughout the bible. So in saying this marriage is culturally a major part of being a Christian and is also legally. And for a gay person they are a completely different cultures. So if one culture picks on another culture, that is called racism. I have a gay sister who i love immensly. When i go to a gay bar, if there is something that i cannot handle, i just leave, and thats being respectful. So why be disrespectful to me by forcing upon my culture, which is the second most valuable part of my cultures life, something that which is not and get upset about it . Why put up a gay flag and claim it your territory when for 1000's of centuries it was my nations turf. When the English settled in Australia they did what you are trying to do now, but the difference is that today Astralians dont get upset about it and force the English views back upon them. Thats racism. Our cultures were different back then and still is, so what are you playing at and why do you pick on a different culture. Most of westerners are not Christians. They may claim that they are but they are not. It is obvious by the way i live my life and the way you live yours. So please, if gay people want a contract' put it under a different form that is something completely different. Like Baal worship. If you look into the way the Israelites developed their legal system they tryed to center it around the biblical ethical system. They were not perfect as stoning was mentioned,( but thats another matter). But the western governments have tryed to do the same even though it is still not perfect. There needs to be changes legally within marriage , but hey thats our problem not yours. Remember we started it. So please don't be racist, or direspectfull. Homosexuality and Christianity is like chalk and cheese. So why? this has gone to far. Sorry but this is the truth.

Are you saying that someone is forcing you to be gay or marry a person of the same sex? If not, then how are they forcing anything on you? If anything, you are forcing your religious views on me, by using them to restrict my rights.

[Autodidact]

It is obvious that there has been many forms of marriage, but within the western culture, marriage was legally instituted by Christians.

Sorry, this is factually false. Every culture and nation has had some form of marriage, Christian and non-Christian. Jews and Greeks had marriage long before there was any Christianity. Christians have no more special relationship to marriage than anyone else.

And the other cultural ways of marriage is not similar to the marriage within this institution that was established through the Church with it legalities. Different God different system. This western culture began as a Christian culture so why take that which was never meant for gay people. And why get upset

Factually false again. Western Culture started as a Jewish, Greek, Roman and Egyptian culture.

For a Christian who's culture instituted it within western society wonders why do you want to continue to pursue it.

Pursue what, equality?

I have noticed that this forum is used to put Christians down

I'n not putting Christians down, I'm just correcting your errors of fact.

So i wonder why?

Because I care about accuracy and truth.

Also i've noticed that most biblical statements through out this forum has been so far of track that it is almost witchcraft. To interpret scripture we must first read the bible, then the book, then the passage, then the scripture. We must grasp what the text said to the people in that town at that time and in context, then measure the width of that great divide that separates our time and culture from theirs, then look at the principles that do cross that bridge and then try to grasp onto what that scripture say's to our own time. And there is so much more to consider when interpreting. Thats why the Church employs Scholars. So when you threw yourself out there and made out that you new Scripture (like so many more in this forum), i wanted to add that God never wanted a King, man did. A major mob within the Israelite community insisted on it because they were influenced by the surrounding communities and were competing with the Joneses. And that was what it was. Samuel the prophet warned them what the Kings would do to them, by repeating what God told him to say. So this is where i want to add a statement of yours.

And why on earth would the Bible have anything to do with my legal rights?

Probably because the churches insist on trying to act as the arbiter of values and morals for those outside its doors.

Who is forcing on who? You had one statement and the rest were just a pile of lashing out at the Christians and enforced your views upon me. You put down my personal values to then try to distrupt my valued and sacred form of marriage aswell. So in saying this who's entered my home, trying to steel and convert me. Its like what the English did to the Aboriginies. So don't arbitrate your views upon my culture. Your wrong on all levels.

Wait, someone broke into your home and tried to make you marry someone the same sex as you?

In regards to science I think that it is great. We all get to see what God has created for us. Its a way to seek Him. What you perceive science to be is a way to discredit Christ. The living God. You should check out " the intelligent design." Evolutionists couldn't explain it so the have become science fiction by blaming aliens. Its an interesting world.

Everything in this paragraph is incorrect, but does not belong in this thread so let us take it up elsewhere.

Also the funny thing about this forum is that its a forum to lash out at Christians.

Baloney.

'You Know its ok to be' ..... 'a Christian.' It's funny what this is becoming, (or has it been for a while?) a gay society that hates Christians.

You do know that the great majority of Americans are Christian, as well as the majority of Gay Americans, right?

If thats the consistent underlying sentiment towards Christians then one must question your true intentions of attacking the idea of marriage

No one's attacking the idea of marriage. You're attacking the idea of my marriage.

Thats what it is for you, 'an idea,' as you perceive that there is no God in your marriage and its "an idea" between two people

Yup. You have a problem with that?

But what makes it obvious of your anger towards us Christians is that you want to fight an idea agaisnt a sacred act which was instituted legally by Christians within the Western Culture. So why insist? I know its just one big mocking session to Christians and God. At least your consistent. I'd give you that.

Sorry, you are simply factually incorrect. It was not instituted legally by Christians. In fact, the early Christian church didn't even perform marriages; that was the business of the King. No ones mocking anyone. What are you even talking about?

You know with me saying all of this, i love gay people. And as a matter of fact i have lived with, hung out with and have a sister who is gay. I've even put my life on the line for her several times. I have a sunken knuckle defending her from a pack of men. She understands me. Why Don't you? Oh yeh thats right your racist?

Please provide an iota of support for your ridiculous accusation or withdraw it immediately.

Do you support your sister's right to full equality under the law?

[Autodidact]

So this is what it has come down to. Sorry for defending my customs rights. I guess freedom to live by ones customary social standing doesn't work with hatred. Your hatred comments only prove my point again. You should read my thoughts on, "Does gay marriage affect fundamental values." Another is, "Do you think that non-theists can experience the same experience, commonly known as spiritualism." Its good to broaden your horizon. Anyway, love ya.

No one is attacking or trying to limit your rights in any way. You can marry, or not marry, whomever you please. The only thing I'm trying to limit is your attempt to limit my rights. What you are defending is your "right" to limit my rights. And I have a problem with that.

[Autodidact]

Secularization is a thought. and that all it is. Their is no act or legal laws for it. Its a thought that stands against my church defending its rights. Secularism is your thought that religious beliefs, practices and institutions lose social significance. so its your thoughts of oppression. It means that all that the Church stands for is false. Its actually your own thoughts against Christians. Its like the KKK who think blacks are worthless. Aren't we meant to be in a forum the does not blantantly discriminate. This definition is what i got from a dictionary. Shame on your racists comments Pure unethical and evil. Strike that from your comments. Shame on you. Obviously you haven't gone with the times and studyed the sciences that back up the bible. you are obviously begoting yourself on fanciful statements. Your obviously disolutioned in your own dilemma. You are obviously resorting to such low blows because your lost for words. You have no comeback worth justifying your views. This only backs up what i've been saying.

You are mistaken about what secularism means. YOu may want to look it up. Secularism is a system in which all religions and lack of religion are equally respected and equally free. You are free to practice your religion, and I am free to practice mine. That is all. It means a level playing field, with no one religion having any advantage over any other, but all free to practice their own--that's all. Do you have a problem with that system?

[His Name Is John]

Surely if you think something is wrong, then you have a right to campaign against it.

If there are reasons not to support same-sex being formally recognized and being spoken of as if perfectly normal within a society, then why should Christians not make a fuss about it.

If religion is right, and God and his laws are real, then of course you should try and stop those laws from being removed.

[McCulloch]

Surely if you think something is wrong, then you have a right to campaign against it.

If there are reasons not to support same-sex being formally recognized and being spoken of as if perfectly normal within a society, then why should Christians not make a fuss about it.

If religion is right, and God and his laws are real, then of course you should try and stop those laws from being removed.

Yes and apparently idolatry is also wrong. Do you think that Christians should be lobbying Congress to outlaw religions such as Hinduism which practice idolatry?