Is Christianity responsible for denying women's rights?

[Flail]

The political history of the United States includes relatively few women compared to the number of men. Women did not have the right to vote for the first 140 years of our existence as a country. No woman has ever held the office of President or Vice President and very few have served in high office. Women's history as leaders in Christianity is similarly deficient.

Often we hear criticisms of Islam for treating women as second class citizens. Is Christianity the same, having advanced further to combat religious discrimination against women by reason of simply getting an earlier start?

Question for debate: Is Christianity responsible for the shameful history of women's rights in America?

[Clownboat]

Ill also note that the passages cited by McCulloch are among the most hotly disputed among Christian interpreters, but I think the interpretations Im offering are plausible ones.

It does not seem logical that God would inspire the writing of a book with a message for everyone and then require Theologians to interpret and explain the book.

[Janx]

Its difficult to view someone as a mysogynist who allowed women to help him in ministry by working at his side. Jesus wasnt a misogynist and neither was Paul. So theres no contradiction on this issue between the two.

Ill also note that the passages cited by McCulloch are among the most hotly disputed among Christian interpreters, but I think the interpretations Im offering are plausible ones.

SOP,

This is nice and everything but the very same book was used to argue against women's rights by none other than the Catholic Church. So this is ONLY YOUR INTERPRETATION.

The history lessons I was taught pointed to the fact that Christian conservatives did everything they could to keep women as second class citizens. The Bible and christian tradition continue to give plenty of ammunition to those ignorant and afraid of change.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 101:

...
The Bible and christian tradition continue to give plenty of ammunition to those ignorant and afraid of change.

Regardless of the veracity of such a statement, we don't accuse others of ignorance lest they remind us all of when we got drunk, stripped down and started chasing Misty Roberts 'round the pool. And her husband there

[dianaiad]

Ill also note that the passages cited by McCulloch are among the most hotly disputed among Christian interpreters, but I think the interpretations Im offering are plausible ones.

It does not seem logical that God would inspire the writing of a book with a message for everyone and then require Theologians to interpret and explain the book.

Never forget, Clownboat, that while God inspired the writing, He didn't dictate. MEN wrote it; men who were dealing with languages and cultures that we aren't familiar with.

So, yeah, it's gonna need explaining when it deals with concepts and words that we aren't familiar with.

I don't know why that would surprise you. Ever try to read Beowulf in the original Old English? I mean, *I* prefer it, but then I"ve spent a few years learning Old English.

[Flail]

Ill also note that the passages cited by McCulloch are among the most hotly disputed among Christian interpreters, but I think the interpretations Im offering are plausible ones.

It does not seem logical that God would inspire the writing of a book with a message for everyone and then require Theologians to interpret and explain the book.

Never forget, Clownboat, that while God inspired the writing, He didn't dictate. MEN wrote it; men who were dealing with languages and cultures that we aren't familiar with.

So, yeah, it's gonna need explaining when it deals with concepts and words that we aren't familiar with.

I don't know why that would surprise you. Ever try to read Beowulf in the original Old English? I mean, *I* prefer it, but then I"ve spent a few years learning Old English.

Although I generally agree with your assessment, I have never met or listened to a single preacher(supposedly expert on the subject) have any problem at all with interpreting the precise meaning of 'Gods Word'....and I have listened to hundreds of them....and all of them are in very close agreement to what the Bible says when it comes to Christian dogma and doctrine.

[dianaiad]

Ill also note that the passages cited by McCulloch are among the most hotly disputed among Christian interpreters, but I think the interpretations Im offering are plausible ones.

It does not seem logical that God would inspire the writing of a book with a message for everyone and then require Theologians to interpret and explain the book.

Never forget, Clownboat, that while God inspired the writing, He didn't dictate. MEN wrote it; men who were dealing with languages and cultures that we aren't familiar with.

So, yeah, it's gonna need explaining when it deals with concepts and words that we aren't familiar with.

I don't know why that would surprise you. Ever try to read Beowulf in the original Old English? I mean, *I* prefer it, but then I"ve spent a few years learning Old English.

Although I generally agree with your assessment, I have never met or listened to a single preacher(supposedly expert on the subject) have any problem at all with interpreting the precise meaning of 'Gods Word'....and I have listened to hundreds of them....and all of them are in very close agreement to what the Bible says when it comes to Christian dogma and doctrine.

Well, they are 'in close agreement' with what THEY think it says, and what you do...but is that what it says?

Really?

There are those who have different opinions.

[Janx]

Ill also note that the passages cited by McCulloch are among the most hotly disputed among Christian interpreters, but I think the interpretations Im offering are plausible ones.

It does not seem logical that God would inspire the writing of a book with a message for everyone and then require Theologians to interpret and explain the book.

Never forget, Clownboat, that while God inspired the writing, He didn't dictate. MEN wrote it; men who were dealing with languages and cultures that we aren't familiar with.

So, yeah, it's gonna need explaining when it deals with concepts and words that we aren't familiar with.

I don't know why that would surprise you. Ever try to read Beowulf in the original Old English? I mean, *I* prefer it, but then I"ve spent a few years learning Old English.

It surprises me that you believe in a God that would use such communication techniques. The best a God can do is inspire men of a bronze age civilization to write words that would later be used to justify all forms of social injustice? Makes me wonder what you believe the purpose of the Bible to be because by your definition it's clearly not meant for guidance or education.

[Clownboat]

Ill also note that the passages cited by McCulloch are among the most hotly disputed among Christian interpreters, but I think the interpretations Im offering are plausible ones.

It does not seem logical that God would inspire the writing of a book with a message for everyone and then require Theologians to interpret and explain the book.

Never forget, Clownboat, that while God inspired the writing, He didn't dictate. MEN wrote it; men who were dealing with languages and cultures that we aren't familiar with.

So, yeah, it's gonna need explaining when it deals with concepts and words that we aren't familiar with.

I don't know why that would surprise you. Ever try to read Beowulf in the original Old English? I mean, *I* prefer it, but then I"ve spent a few years learning Old English.

If peoples eternal souls depend on the message in the Bible, then he should have dictated it.

If not, then I agree with you that it was written by men, like all other stories and religions. It also seems much more probable too.

[SOP]

So...if a source for discrimination is not Biblical...either OT or NT or both ( Christian, Islam) what is the source? Why does it persist in such areas as politics and business etc...in light of empirical evidence that women are as capable as men in qualities of intellect, decision making and leadership etc. Why are many Islamic women not permitted to drive a car and treated as second class citizens? In the US, why do women make less money for the same job? Why have we had relatively few women elected to high office? Why zero women as President or Vice President? Why no women Priests and relatively few women preachers? Why did it take the US 140 years to grant women the right to vote?

Good questions. Im no sociologist or anthropologist (or much of anything ) but here are some thoughts (i.e. opinions):

1. If the Bible (I cant speak for the Koran since I know practically nothing about it) is not the source of discrimination, then Id put the blame on bias in the culture. But one might ask where this cultural bias came from. The obvious answer is that men are obviously, in general, bigger and stronger than women. When one wants power, the strong get it (usually). When Johnny knows he can get his way with Becky, all other things being equal, hell get his way, though only in the absence of some sort of restraining mechanism. When the power structure is all male, and if such biases are readily transferred to everyone in the culture including females, its no surprise that those kinds of attitudes persist through many generations, even among the females themselves (by and large). I think its safe to say that practically every culture of the past has been male dominated. Even in democratic Athens, only men could vote. In Rome, women couldnt run for political office.

So Id say the fact that many past Christians have used the Bible to discriminate against women is a result of the surrounding cultural bias, not necessarily anything from the Bible itself. The fact that I can find a plausible egalitarian interpretation of these texts shows that hierarchialism does not necessarily follow from these passages. Thus I see no prohibition on female priests or pastors. In fact the mention of women as leaders and ministry workers throughout the NT bespeaks to the equality that women had in the early church, something that was unfortunately lost over time. The fact that some churches prohibit female leaders speaks to their interpretative stance. Personally, Id not be a member of a church who held that view, but thats just me I guess.


2. So, given what I wrote above, most of your questions can be answered, I think, not biblically, but culturally.

Perhaps your subjective spin on the verses quoted by McCulloch aligns with the intent of original authors...as with all things Biblical that is impossible to discern....but do you agree that it is at least possible that some men within Christianity and Islam have taken those passages and interpreted them anti-woman, and have then taken logical progressions from their presumptions and inculcated their belief systems with indoctrinations that either directly or indirectly have led to gender discrimination?

A comparison could be made with interpreting a countrys constitution. Rulings from a nations Supreme Court most likely depend a lot on whether the majority of justices are of one political ideological persuasion or another. Millions of lives are affected by these rulings. Since such rulings are often contentious, could we draw a similar conclusion and say that as with all things Constitutional that is impossible to discern? Anyway, I will agree that it is at least possible that some men have interpreted these passages to be anti-woman. But anti-woman attitudes and behavior preceded the founding Christianity, so I wouldnt exactly put all the blame on Christianity.

[SOP]

Ill also note that the passages cited by McCulloch are among the most hotly disputed among Christian interpreters, but I think the interpretations Im offering are plausible ones.

It does not seem logical that God would inspire the writing of a book with a message for everyone and then require Theologians to interpret and explain the book.

Thats just the nature of language and writing. Using your comment as an example, depending on how you mean it, one could interpret it straightforwardly, or take it in a sarcastic fashion.