Is Christianity responsible for denying women's rights?

[Flail]

The political history of the United States includes relatively few women compared to the number of men. Women did not have the right to vote for the first 140 years of our existence as a country. No woman has ever held the office of President or Vice President and very few have served in high office. Women's history as leaders in Christianity is similarly deficient.

Often we hear criticisms of Islam for treating women as second class citizens. Is Christianity the same, having advanced further to combat religious discrimination against women by reason of simply getting an earlier start?

Question for debate: Is Christianity responsible for the shameful history of women's rights in America?

[Flail]

The political history of the United States includes relatively few women compared to the number of men. Women did not have the right to vote for the first 140 years of our existence as a country. No woman has ever held the office of President or Vice President and very few have served in high office. Women's history as leaders in Christianity is similarly deficient.

Often we hear criticisms of Islam for treating women as second class citizens. Is Christianity the same, having advanced further to combat religious discrimination against women by reason of simply getting an earlier start?

Question for debate: Is Christianity responsible for the shameful history of women's rights in America?

Islam and Christianity have been mentioned.

However, these are not the only two religions or cultures of the world, either today or in the past.

It seems to me the answer to the question for debate is clearly no for the simple reason that nearly every society throughout history, including most of those today, have a relative paucity of women political leaders.

How many Pharoahs were female?

How many rulers in the various Chinese dynasties were female?

Any of the Khans?

How many Tsars?

How many rulers of the Babylonians, Persians, Medes, Assyrians, Amalekites, etc.?

How many cultures, even looking at only those with a hereditary ruling class, ever allowed females the same status as males? How many did NOT follow the rule that females ruled only when no male errors were present?



Now, if we want to get to more recent times, what percentage of European leaders over the past 30 years were female?


In fact, a little data I happened to have on hand from the Population Reference Bureaus (www.prb.org) indicates the following about the 30 odd countries of the OECD as of 2005.

Only 9 out of the 31 included in the data had legislatures or parliaments with more than 30% of the members female. Only 1 had more than 40% (Sweden). 16 had fewer than 20%, including the U.S. at 14%, but also Japan at 13% and South Korea at 7%. Note the latter two countries are not exactly known for their tradition of Christian influence. South Korea only bested Turkey at 4%.

In fact, outside of Japan, South Korea, and Turkey, every single country can be legitimately considered to have a tradition within Christianity.




Here is more data from the International Women's Democracy Center.

http://www.iwdc.org/resources/fact_sheet.htm

As of June 2008:

- Women occupy only 18% of parliamentary seats around the world.

- Regional averages of the percentage of women in parliament vary greatly:

Nordic countries - 41.4%
Americas - 21.8%
Europe (excluding Nordic countries) - 19.1%
Asia - 17.4%
Sub-Saharan Africa - 17.2%
Pacific - 13.4%
Arab states - 9.6%
-The US currently rankes 68th of 134 nations worldwide with only 16.8% women elected to the House of Representatives and 16.0% women elected to the Senate. If you count all nations that tied for a position due to the same number of women represented in government seperately as well as those nations for which no information is available (such as Myanmar), the US is ranked 83rd of 189.

If Christianity was the cause of the gender disparity in the U.S., why is this disparity so wide spread all over the world and throughout history, including in areas that have never had any significant Christian influence?

The OP compares the treatment of women by Islam and Christianity. As has been stated, these religions have been used as excuses by men to discriminate against women. Of course in ancient times when muscle and testosterone ruled the world one would expect men to dominate...but some men have turned in more modern times to the dogma in the Bible and in the Koran to subjugate women. Other cultures use other means I am sure. I have first hand experience with churches and preachers indoctrinating former clients and relatives in the Bible Belt that Jesus demands that a wife be subservient to her husband in all things and that it is sinful for a women to have a career outside the home, that she submit to any sexual demand of her husband and that she refrain from speaking in church.

[Goat]

...and maybe we could try a woman for President....we certainly coudn't do any worse than our last two choices....I thought Bush was a joke...but Obama is a nightmare.

We voted him in to prove we weren't racist. Now we need to vote him out to prove we're not idiots.

Both Bush and Obama did not know what they were doing, but at least Obama has been far better when it comes to foreign policy. I can never forget when Bush led this country into the war with Iraq and being stuck there years after the war rebuilding another country who hates America while our country is crumbling and our borders are lacking security (and I don't mean against hard working Mexican families whom I love to see). This is one thing I worry about some Republicans when it comes to some of their banter regarding America being the greatest and they being God led. Someone with this thinking will be quicker to lead us into war than someone who thinks otherwise, imo.

Yet after two years under Obama, the Mexican border is even more insecure....the war in Iraq is still on...the war in Afghanistan is raging....we are participating in a war in Libya and are on the verge of war in Iran and Syria...meanwhile our failure to add jobs in our economy is the worst since 1945 and our credit standing in the world has been downgraded for the first time in our history...we truly need leadership and experience....and Obama has neither.

On the other hand, if you take a look at the rate which jobs were being lost, starting the last year of Bush's term.. the rate was increasing drastically. A month after Obama took office, that reversed itself.

Just look at this chart.

[catalyst]

The political history of the United States includes relatively few women compared to the number of men. Women did not have the right to vote for the first 140 years of our existence as a country. No woman has ever held the office of President or Vice President and very few have served in high office. Women's history as leaders in Christianity is similarly deficient.

Often we hear criticisms of Islam for treating women as second class citizens. Is Christianity the same, having advanced further to combat religious discrimination against women by reason of simply getting an earlier start?

Question for debate: Is Christianity responsible for the shameful history of women's rights in America?

Again, as the OP stresses, it is drawing comparison to positions of female Leader Political position and the treatment of women in Islam, vs that of Christianity in the US. As I stated before, there have been MANY a political head WOMAN in politics on the Islamic front, but ZIP when it comes to the US. As such, Islamic countries are scoring at least a 6 to 0 against the Christianised US and as such, the US is singularly deficient in this regard.

Cat

[Flail]

The political history of the United States includes relatively few women compared to the number of men. Women did not have the right to vote for the first 140 years of our existence as a country. No woman has ever held the office of President or Vice President and very few have served in high office. Women's history as leaders in Christianity is similarly deficient.

Often we hear criticisms of Islam for treating women as second class citizens. Is Christianity the same, having advanced further to combat religious discrimination against women by reason of simply getting an earlier start?

Question for debate: Is Christianity responsible for the shameful history of women's rights in America?

Again, as the OP stresses, it is drawing comparison to positions of female Leader Political position and the treatment of women in Islam, vs that of Christianity in the US. As I stated before, there have been MANY a political head WOMAN in politics on the Islamic front, but ZIP when it comes to the US. As such, Islamic countries are scoring at least a 6 to 0 against the Christianised US and as such, the US is singularly deficient in this regard.

Cat

Catholicism is particularly devoid of women leadership as if women do not have the 'ear of God' compared to men. I wonder if there are any studies comparing the treatment of women in leadership roles in countries wherein Catholicism is a dominant superstition? IMO, you would have to be a very indoctrinated woman to be part of the Catholic sect.

[catalyst]

The political history of the United States includes relatively few women compared to the number of men. Women did not have the right to vote for the first 140 years of our existence as a country. No woman has ever held the office of President or Vice President and very few have served in high office. Women's history as leaders in Christianity is similarly deficient.

Often we hear criticisms of Islam for treating women as second class citizens. Is Christianity the same, having advanced further to combat religious discrimination against women by reason of simply getting an earlier start?

Question for debate: Is Christianity responsible for the shameful history of women's rights in America?

Again, as the OP stresses, it is drawing comparison to positions of female Leader Political position and the treatment of women in Islam, vs that of Christianity in the US. As I stated before, there have been MANY a political head WOMAN in politics on the Islamic front, but ZIP when it comes to the US. As such, Islamic countries are scoring at least a 6 to 0 against the Christianised US and as such, the US is singularly deficient in this regard.

Cat

Catholicism is particularly devoid of women leadership as if women do not have the 'ear of God' compared to men. I wonder if there are any studies comparing the treatment of women in leadership roles in countries wherein Catholicism is a dominant superstition? IMO, you would have to be a very indoctrinated woman to be part of the Catholic sect.

Hi Flail,

Whilst Catholicism is void of women leadership within their church whilst alive, it seems apparent to me that at least some women in their religious system, DO have the "ear of God" in some form, hence given beatification. There are over a hundred female saints, if not more. Perhaps to these women, (considering actual beatification) for the most part comes after their "earthly" death, even in their earthly life went out of their way to achieve said status, so as to fulfil their personal desire to "serve" their chosen "God". Perhaps, the status they THINK they get in some "afterlife"; thanks to the IN LIFE indoctrination they receive, will bode them well IN the eyes of "Bible Jesus/Mary and their "God", so that is all that matters to them, during their earthly life? *pondering*


I honestly don't know HOW they think or where there heads are at, but on thinking about your comments, it could well be where their minds are when making the decision to become a nun. *shrug*

I too would like to see a study on this, and I DID check out the web to see if there is... ..... I found nothing. What would be cool is, if there were a former nun on here so that she could add her 2 bobs worth!

Cat.

[Flail]

The political history of the United States includes relatively few women compared to the number of men. Women did not have the right to vote for the first 140 years of our existence as a country. No woman has ever held the office of President or Vice President and very few have served in high office. Women's history as leaders in Christianity is similarly deficient.

Often we hear criticisms of Islam for treating women as second class citizens. Is Christianity the same, having advanced further to combat religious discrimination against women by reason of simply getting an earlier start?

Question for debate: Is Christianity responsible for the shameful history of women's rights in America?

Again, as the OP stresses, it is drawing comparison to positions of female Leader Political position and the treatment of women in Islam, vs that of Christianity in the US. As I stated before, there have been MANY a political head WOMAN in politics on the Islamic front, but ZIP when it comes to the US. As such, Islamic countries are scoring at least a 6 to 0 against the Christianised US and as such, the US is singularly deficient in this regard.

Cat

Catholicism is particularly devoid of women leadership as if women do not have the 'ear of God' compared to men. I wonder if there are any studies comparing the treatment of women in leadership roles in countries wherein Catholicism is a dominant superstition? IMO, you would have to be a very indoctrinated woman to be part of the Catholic sect.

Hi Flail,

Whilst Catholicism is void of women leadership within their church whilst alive, it seems apparent to me that at least some women in their religious system, DO have the "ear of God" in some form, hence given beatification. There are over a hundred female saints, if not more. Perhaps to these women, (considering actual beatification) for the most part comes after their "earthly" death, even in their earthly life went out of their way to achieve said status, so as to fulfil their personal desire to "serve" their chosen "God". Perhaps, the status they THINK they get in some "afterlife"; thanks to the IN LIFE indoctrination they receive, will bode them well IN the eyes of "Bible Jesus/Mary and their "God", so that is all that matters to them, during their earthly life? *pondering*


I honestly don't know HOW they think or where there heads are at, but on thinking about your comments, it could well be where their minds are when making the decision to become a nun. *shrug*

I too would like to see a study on this, and I DID check out the web to see if there is... ..... I found nothing. What would be cool is, if there were a former nun on here so that she could add her 2 bobs worth!

Cat.

IMO, the women 'saints' and the Hail Mary ritual (the bead prayer...what is it?...17 times...21?) anyway, I think all the 'after the fact' promotion of a few women is for marketing purposes only...Half the customer base for Catholicism are women...so I think in addition to indoctrination, Catholicism markets to women via sainthood and Mary worship for the sake of revenue and nothing more.

[Flail]

The political history of the United States includes relatively few women compared to the number of men. Women did not have the right to vote for the first 140 years of our existence as a country. No woman has ever held the office of President or Vice President and very few have served in high office. Women's history as leaders in Christianity is similarly deficient.

Often we hear criticisms of Islam for treating women as second class citizens. Is Christianity the same, having advanced further to combat religious discrimination against women by reason of simply getting an earlier start?

Question for debate: Is Christianity responsible for the shameful history of women's rights in America?

Islam and Christianity have been mentioned.

However, these are not the only two religions or cultures of the world, either today or in the past.

It seems to me the answer to the question for debate is clearly no for the simple reason that nearly every society throughout history, including most of those today, have a relative paucity of women political leaders.

How many Pharoahs were female?

How many rulers in the various Chinese dynasties were female?

Any of the Khans?

How many Tsars?

How many rulers of the Babylonians, Persians, Medes, Assyrians, Amalekites, etc.?

How many cultures, even looking at only those with a hereditary ruling class, ever allowed females the same status as males? How many did NOT follow the rule that females ruled only when no male errors were present?



Now, if we want to get to more recent times, what percentage of European leaders over the past 30 years were female?


In fact, a little data I happened to have on hand from the Population Reference Bureaus (www.prb.org) indicates the following about the 30 odd countries of the OECD as of 2005.

Only 9 out of the 31 included in the data had legislatures or parliaments with more than 30% of the members female. Only 1 had more than 40% (Sweden). 16 had fewer than 20%, including the U.S. at 14%, but also Japan at 13% and South Korea at 7%. Note the latter two countries are not exactly known for their tradition of Christian influence. South Korea only bested Turkey at 4%.

In fact, outside of Japan, South Korea, and Turkey, every single country can be legitimately considered to have a tradition within Christianity.




Here is more data from the International Women's Democracy Center.

http://www.iwdc.org/resources/fact_sheet.htm

As of June 2008:

- Women occupy only 18% of parliamentary seats around the world.

- Regional averages of the percentage of women in parliament vary greatly:

Nordic countries - 41.4%
Americas - 21.8%
Europe (excluding Nordic countries) - 19.1%
Asia - 17.4%
Sub-Saharan Africa - 17.2%
Pacific - 13.4%
Arab states - 9.6%
-The US currently rankes 68th of 134 nations worldwide with only 16.8% women elected to the House of Representatives and 16.0% women elected to the Senate. If you count all nations that tied for a position due to the same number of women represented in government seperately as well as those nations for which no information is available (such as Myanmar), the US is ranked 83rd of 189.

If Christianity was the cause of the gender disparity in the U.S., why is this disparity so wide spread all over the world and throughout history, including in areas that have never had any significant Christian influence?

While your points are well taken and while admitting to many contributing factors to the historical unequal treatment of women, the OP attempts to focus on traditional Christian theology as a contributing cause.

Traditional Christian theologians consisted almost entirely of well educated, white European and later North American males. Common sense would dictate that these men wrote their theology as if their experiences with God and suffering etc. were typical. They may not have intentionally diminished the experiences of 'lesser folks' such as blacks and women, but their theology seems to reflect a 'white male' perspective on the relationship of God to mankind. Changes began to accelerate for the equality of women due to a variety of forces, not the least of which was the emergence of liberation theology in the 60's and feminine movements which coincided with other civil rights movements.

It remains an amazing phenomenon that the ideals of equality and liberty championed by our white, male, Christian founding fathers in the Declaration of Independence took so long to become the equal property right of blacks and women.

IMO, the world will become a kinder, more intellectual and less violent place as soon as women gain their rightful place alongside their male counterparts.

[Flail]

The political history of the United States includes relatively few women compared to the number of men. Women did not have the right to vote for the first 140 years of our existence as a country. No woman has ever held the office of President or Vice President and very few have served in high office. Women's history as leaders in Christianity is similarly deficient.

Often we hear criticisms of Islam for treating women as second class citizens. Is Christianity the same, having advanced further to combat religious discrimination against women by reason of simply getting an earlier start?

Question for debate: Is Christianity responsible for the shameful history of women's rights in America?

Given what the Bible tells us about the status and rights of women, would not Bible believing Christians still be compelled to insist that a woman's place is in the home and that she should be submissive to her husband?

[Flail]

The history lessons I was taught pointed to the fact that Christian conservatives did everything they could to keep women as second class citizens. The Bible and christian tradition continue to give plenty of ammunition to those ignorant and afraid of change.

I dont want to insult your history teachers but I think they gave you only part of the story.

Certainly. Yet my point that scripture is far from being a perfect guide to social standards remains.

I'm thinking you are making an argument for the pliability and corruptibility of the Christianity and that in the end it is knowledge and civilization which brings humanity closer to moral perfection, not faith. If so I agree with you.

Are you saying that as mankind in general gains more insight and understanding into human nature and diverse cultures that BibleGod worshiping belief systems like Christianity and Islam will fade? Will evolution away from traditional religion improve the treatment of women ipso facto?