Are there any prophecies in the Bible?

[notachance]

It seems to me that the go-to "proof" that the Bible is divinely inspired are prophecies.

So I was hoping that somebody would give me an example of a prophecy that might prove the supernatural nature of the Bible.

I will write below a few criteria that I think any alleged prophecy must meet in order to qualify as "evidence of supernatural nature of the Bible"

1) The prophecy must have been demonstrably written down before the event it predicts.
A prophecy is a statement about the future, not about the past.

For example, if I wrote today, in 2011, "I hereby make the prophecy that in 2008, Barack Obama will be elected President of the United States", that is NOT a prophecy, because I'm "predicting" an event that actually already happened.

Similarly, if a 350 AD manuscript (for example the Codex Sinaiticus) talked about some battle that took place in 600BC, that wouldn't be a prediction, it would be a description of something that happened almost 1000 years earlier.

2) A prophecy must have demonstrably actually been made
An example of scenario that would NOT count as a valid prophecy would one where I write down today "10 years before he died, John Lennon told an anonymous author that he would die by being shot in the head". There is no way of verifying that John Lennon ever said that, so it's not a valid prophecy.

3) A predicted event must be reliably documented.
For example, if I said "I predict that tonight I will dream about eating ice cream" and then the next day I say "The prophecy came true! I did dream about ice cream", that would not be an accurate prophecy because it was not reliably documented. Nobody other than me knows if it's actually true that I dreamed about ice-cream.

4) A prophecy must be specific enough that it cannot be adaptable to multiple scenarios that are somewhat likely to happen eventually.
For example if I wrote "There will be a war between Christians and Muslims in the next 100 years", then I'm not making a supernatural prophecy, just an educated guess given the nature of our international relations. In order for it to even be considered as a prophecy, it would have to be something like "On March 2nd 2076, the United States will begin a campaign of drone attacks in Iran, starting with a 3:30 am raid on a military base 20 miles north of Tehran".

Another example of what would not be a prophecy would be something like "the twin towers that collapsed on 9-11 will eventually be rebuilt"

5) In order for a prophecy to be considered proof of the supernatural nature of the Bible, there has to be no other reasonable way to explaining it than by supernatural means.
If you cannot prove that purely natural explanations (chance? self-fulfilling prophecy, forgery) truly cannot account for the prophecy, then your belief in the supernatural cause of the prophecy is no more than a faith statement, and if you are using that do justify your faith, you're engaging in circular logic ("I believe in this baseless claim, because it's supported by another baseless claim").

6) An accurate prophecy cannot be considered evidence of the supernatural if it is surrounded by inaccurate prophecies.
For example if I wrote today the following statements:
"Obama will be elected in 2012"
"Pawlenty will be elected in 2012"
"Romney will be elected in 2012"
"Palin will be elected in 2012"
"Gingrich will be elected in 2012"

And one of them turned out to be correct, that would prove nothing!

7) A prophecy can only be considered evidence of the supernatural if it predicts something that is extremely unlikely.
For example this chart shows that over the last 117 years, in Seattle it has rained on August 2nd 13 times. That means that there is 11.1% chance that it will rain in Seattle on August 2nd of any given year. So if I wrote the prophecy that "On Aug 2nd 2154 it will rain in Seattle", that would be an accurate prediction, but nonetheless not evidence of supernatural powers, simply evidence of the statistical fact that I had a 11.1% chance to be right.

8) The prophecy cannot be an expression of something that many people want to see happen, because the people's will is what drives the prophecy to be fulfilled in that case, and not a supernatural power.
For example, if Martin Luther King had said "I predict that one day a black man will be US President", that would not be the kind of prediction that would prove the supernatural, because in saying that, MLK would just be verbalizing a wish that was to some degree shared by millions of blacks and whites alike. It was simple social pressure from these millions that eventually caused the prophecy to be "fulfilled". If Hillary Clinton said "One day a woman will be President" she will, by saying it, inspire people to try to make that happen. It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.


It's almost 3am and I am a little tired. I may have to add additional bullet points later. It may also be that there is some redundancy, and that the list could be condensed while retaining it's purpose. But I think this is a good start.

Here are my two questions:

1) Do you agree that the requirements above are reasonable, if not explain why not

2) Can you think of any Bible prophecy that meets the requirements above?

(please don't link or quote 100 different prophecies, and don't then leave it to me to look them all up and debunk them all. Start by quoting the SINGLE MOST CONCLUSIVE example of a prophecy, and we can talk about that. Once we've debated it, we can move on to additional examples)

[notachance]

Mithrae,
The Dead Sea Scrolls do not contain the prophecy in Daniel 2:31-46. Sorry.

Go here: http://home.earthlink.net/~ironmen/qumran.htm

4Q112 only contains Daniel 2 up to verse 33. Sorry bro, you are just wrong. Maybe, next time get your information from a website that is not called CHRISTIANTHINKTANK.COM.

It's true that every chapter is represented in the DSS, BUT NOT IN IT'S ENTIRETY. One of the portions missing from Daniel 2 is verses 33 through 46. The prophecy in question, as luck would have it. Sorry.

Let's try again.

Please give me the current location, and date of creation, of the oldest document containing Daniel 2:31-46.

Until you do, my argument remains very simple:

Fact: A description of semi-historic events from 600 to 200 BC was written in 350 AD.

Does this fact demonstrate the supernatural beyond a reasonable doubt? No.

[Mithrae]

Mithrae,
The Dead Sea Scrolls do not contain the prophecy in Daniel 2:31-46. Sorry.

Go here: http://home.earthlink.net/~ironmen/qumran.htm

4Q112 only contains Daniel 2 up to verse 33. Sorry bro, you are just wrong. Maybe, next time get your information from a website that is not called CHRISTIANTHINKTANK.COM.

It's true that every chapter is represented in the DSS, BUT NOT IN IT'S ENTIRETY. One of the portions missing from Daniel 2 is verses 33 through 46. The prophecy in question, as luck would have it. Sorry.

Let's try again.

Please give me the current location, and date of creation, of the oldest document containing Daniel 2:31-46.

Until you do, my argument remains very simple:

Fact: A description of semi-historic events from 600 to 200 BC was written in 350 AD.

Does this fact demonstrate the supernatural beyond a reasonable doubt? No.

Thanks for the correction and the link. You'll note above that I referenced my claim regarding Daniel 2 with a Google books link to The book of Daniel: composition and reception, Volume 2, by John Joseph Collins, Peter W. Flint, Cameron VanEpps. Please try to read what I've posted before misrepresenting my choice of sources. Your slur on Christian sources notwithstanding, the mistake was mine in misinterpreting 'content range' as 'full contents.' It's also worth noting that according to your source that manuscript does contain most of the prophecy, just not Daniel's interpretation of it:

• 31 You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. 32 This images head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.

As I pointed out in response to your claims that the prophecy is "vague meaningless gibberish" and not associated with Babylonians, the concept of four successive world empires adapted here was common in Greek thought. Again, please try to read what I've written. I've never said that Daniel 2 is even evidence of the supernatural, let alone the absolute proof you still insist is so important.

What I think is important are the use of incorrect information, mockery and unsubstantiated sweeping generalisations as your primary means of emphasising your main point - that, like all other elements of ancient history, we don't have 100% certainty regarding alleged prophecies. So while it was fun pointing out (three times before you acknowledged it!) that the head of gold is associated with Babylonians, as I said back on page 18 my interest in Daniel as prophecy concerns chapters 8 and 11. As the article I quoted in my last post suggests (and I've barely scratched the surface of the evidence presented), the acceptance of Daniel as a genuine prophet by a mid-second century BCE community is rather strong evidence that it wasn't merely a propaganda piece written 15 years earlier.

[notachance]

You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. This images head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze,its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.

Ok, let's look at this text, written in 50 BC.

Do you claim that this text demonstrates the ability of the anonymous author to predict the future?

That's a yes or no question.

[Mithrae]

You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. This images head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze,its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.

Ok, let's look at this text, written in 50 BC.

Do you claim that this text demonstrates the ability of the anonymous author to predict the future?

That's a yes or no question.

Again, please try to read what I've written:

Again, please try to read what I've written. I've never said that Daniel 2 is even evidence of the supernatural, let alone the absolute proof you still insist is so important.

Honestly, while I appreciate the fun so far and the opportunity to have discovered that article I found, when you're misrepresenting my choice of sources, disparaging other sources on the basis of religious affiliation, ignoring the actual point which I raised from my very first post in the thread and asking for answers which I've already explicitly given, I think it's time to call it quits.

I noticed that the first replies in your "Stuff this entire forum agrees on" thread were also from rather dubious atheists. Best of luck in that thread

[notachance]

Again, please try to read what I've written. I've never said that Daniel 2 is even evidence of the supernatural, let alone the absolute proof you still insist is so important.

Wait a second Mithrae, my apologies! We've been exchanging a lot of correspondence and I must have missed that line.

The entire scope of this thread is to request examples of prophecies in the Bible which are evidence of the supernatural.

If you agree with me that Daniel 2:31-46 does NOT constitute evidence for the supernatural, then we've been going around in circles for days while we agreed all along!

I'm sorry man. I'm apparently not as good a listener (or reader) as I thought I was

I get it. You are not claiming that Daniel 2 is evidence of the supernatural. You agree with me that it is not.

Again, my sincere apologies for the silly wild goose chase. I will not misunderstand you in this regard ever again. If at any stage in the future I get confused and think you're saying that this 350 AD passage is evidence of the supernatural, I will remember this moment and say to myself "Don't be an idiot Notachance, Mithrae does NOT think that it's evidence of the supernatural, he agrees with you that it's not!".

So, two questions for you:

1) Are there any other prophecies other than Daniel 2:31-46 in the Bible which you believe are evidence of the supernatural?

2) Other than getting it through my thick skull that you agree with me that Daniel 2:31-46 is NOT a prophecy which constitutes evidence of the supernatural, what was the essence of your argument with me?

[riverslivnwtr]

The only way to see it is, by the directions given in the bible.

No, the only way to see it it, is by the directions given in the Koran.

Now tell me what positive evidence you have that my statement is false and yours is true.

first you show me evidence from the Quran that says you can see the kingdom of heaven while you are still in this world..

It says so on page 46

Jesus says those who believe in him shall have rivers of living water flow within them.

John 7_37-39

I am a living witness of this reality..

now does the koran have any witnesses at all that have anything like that ???

Yes, millions of Muslims are witnesses of something like that.

I'v e only heared of one such ...and you know how these people use that ganga

no it is not in their testimony..it's all religious rules and stuff like that..

hey it's a lot of Christians like that....maybe that's why muslims came to be in the first place...Christians in the 7th century unable to deliver..perhaps because so many had been killed by the Roman empire God just gave them blood to drink...as he promised in the book of Revelation..

You are blinded by your sin and by the influence of the devil. If you approached the Koran with an open mind and an open heart, you'd find that it is the true word of God. You can't see it because you're full of hate and tribulation, and because Satan has corrupted you with all his false talk about his son Jesus.

(Moderators. Is it ok that I continue this line of argument? I'm assuming that you understand where I'm going with this. If it's not cool, let me know)

well as the bible says, who is blind as my servant? of deaf, as my messenger that i sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the lords servant?
seeing many things and seeing not and hearing many things and hearing not..
The lord is well pleased for his righteousness sake he will magnify the law and make it honourable..

Yada yada yada. Here is the only thing that is definitely 100% true and nobody can deny. You worship the devil. That's why you fail to see that Allah is the One True God and Mohammed is His Prophet.

You hate God, and that's why you worship Satan.

Also, you worship Satan because by doing that you can continue sinning without being answerable to anybody. And probably you had some bad experience with Islam when you were a child, and that's why you can't find it in you to love the One True God, Allah the Merciful.

That's it. This truth appeared to me in a personal revelation that was very very powerful, therefore it cannot be disputed. It's true. You worship Satan.

Praise Allah.

and the battle goes on..
I don't have to look into the Quran.. I see the Muslim religion through the Muslims.. their actions speak for Islam..such as in Mauritania where if a Muslim converts to Christianity he faces the death penalty...that says a lot about their religion the same for all the other Muslim nations...but Jesus said, that those who come to him would be at war with there own families..A father against his son; a mother against family and so on...incidently there is another prediction made by Jesus how division over him would divide...and this is found everywhere Christianity is ...

[notachance]

No, the only way to see it it, is by the directions given in the Koran.

Now tell me what positive evidence you have that my statement is false and yours is true.

first you show me evidence from the Quran that says you can see the kingdom of heaven while you are still in this world..

It says so on page 46

Jesus says those who believe in him shall have rivers of living water flow within them.

John 7_37-39

I am a living witness of this reality..

now does the koran have any witnesses at all that have anything like that ???

Yes, millions of Muslims are witnesses of something like that.

I'v e only heared of one such ...and you know how these people use that ganga

no it is not in their testimony..it's all religious rules and stuff like that..

hey it's a lot of Christians like that....maybe that's why muslims came to be in the first place...Christians in the 7th century unable to deliver..perhaps because so many had been killed by the Roman empire God just gave them blood to drink...as he promised in the book of Revelation..

You are blinded by your sin and by the influence of the devil. If you approached the Koran with an open mind and an open heart, you'd find that it is the true word of God. You can't see it because you're full of hate and tribulation, and because Satan has corrupted you with all his false talk about his son Jesus.

(Moderators. Is it ok that I continue this line of argument? I'm assuming that you understand where I'm going with this. If it's not cool, let me know)

well as the bible says, who is blind as my servant? of deaf, as my messenger that i sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the lords servant?
seeing many things and seeing not and hearing many things and hearing not..
The lord is well pleased for his righteousness sake he will magnify the law and make it honourable..

Yada yada yada. Here is the only thing that is definitely 100% true and nobody can deny. You worship the devil. That's why you fail to see that Allah is the One True God and Mohammed is His Prophet.

You hate God, and that's why you worship Satan.

Also, you worship Satan because by doing that you can continue sinning without being answerable to anybody. And probably you had some bad experience with Islam when you were a child, and that's why you can't find it in you to love the One True God, Allah the Merciful.

That's it. This truth appeared to me in a personal revelation that was very very powerful, therefore it cannot be disputed. It's true. You worship Satan.

Praise Allah.

but Jesus said, that those who come to him would be at war with there own families..A father against his son; a mother against family and so on...incidently there is another prediction made by Jesus how division over him would divide...and this is found everywhere Christianity is ...

Praise Allah the Merciful! You are absolutely right, Christianity breeds hatred, confusion, chaos. That's because, as the Holy Prophet clearly says, Jesus is the Son of Satan. Thank you for providing this crushing indisputable proof that Christianity is Satanic.

I just have one question for you: Why do you hate God? He created you. He is your father. Why do you hate him?

Why do you worship Satan and His Son Jesus? Why?

[riverslivnwtr]

first you show me evidence from the Quran that says you can see the kingdom of heaven while you are still in this world..

It says so on page 46

Jesus says those who believe in him shall have rivers of living water flow within them.

John 7_37-39

I am a living witness of this reality..

now does the koran have any witnesses at all that have anything like that ???

Yes, millions of Muslims are witnesses of something like that.

I'v e only heared of one such ...and you know how these people use that ganga

no it is not in their testimony..it's all religious rules and stuff like that..

hey it's a lot of Christians like that....maybe that's why muslims came to be in the first place...Christians in the 7th century unable to deliver..perhaps because so many had been killed by the Roman empire God just gave them blood to drink...as he promised in the book of Revelation..

You are blinded by your sin and by the influence of the devil. If you approached the Koran with an open mind and an open heart, you'd find that it is the true word of God. You can't see it because you're full of hate and tribulation, and because Satan has corrupted you with all his false talk about his son Jesus.

(Moderators. Is it ok that I continue this line of argument? I'm assuming that you understand where I'm going with this. If it's not cool, let me know)

well as the bible says, who is blind as my servant? of deaf, as my messenger that i sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the lords servant?
seeing many things and seeing not and hearing many things and hearing not..
The lord is well pleased for his righteousness sake he will magnify the law and make it honourable..

Yada yada yada. Here is the only thing that is definitely 100% true and nobody can deny. You worship the devil. That's why you fail to see that Allah is the One True God and Mohammed is His Prophet.

You hate God, and that's why you worship Satan.

Also, you worship Satan because by doing that you can continue sinning without being answerable to anybody. And probably you had some bad experience with Islam when you were a child, and that's why you can't find it in you to love the One True God, Allah the Merciful.

That's it. This truth appeared to me in a personal revelation that was very very powerful, therefore it cannot be disputed. It's true. You worship Satan.

Praise Allah.

but Jesus said, that those who come to him would be at war with there own families..A father against his son; a mother against family and so on...incidently there is another prediction made by Jesus how division over him would divide...and this is found everywhere Christianity is ...

Praise Allah the Merciful! You are absolutely right, Christianity breeds hatred, confusion, chaos. That's because, as the Holy Prophet clearly says, Jesus is the Son of Satan. Thank you for providing this crushing indisputable proof that Christianity is Satanic.

I just have one question for you: Why do you hate God? He created you. He is your father. Why do you hate him?

Why do you worship Satan and His Son Jesus? Why?

It seems you have strayed away from your original concept about biblical prophecies which I have richly provided you with fulfilled prophecy and of course you are covering up your failure to properly dispute it..
How did Islam enter into this thread..I was talking about Daniel chp 2 ??

you accuse me with being blind..and I say that's not a bad thing with my response ..the bible blesses those with a single mind...Islam is another story..I don't wish to argue it with you ..

[notachance]

It says so on page 46

Jesus says those who believe in him shall have rivers of living water flow within them.

John 7_37-39

I am a living witness of this reality..

now does the koran have any witnesses at all that have anything like that ???

Yes, millions of Muslims are witnesses of something like that.

I'v e only heared of one such ...and you know how these people use that ganga

no it is not in their testimony..it's all religious rules and stuff like that..

hey it's a lot of Christians like that....maybe that's why muslims came to be in the first place...Christians in the 7th century unable to deliver..perhaps because so many had been killed by the Roman empire God just gave them blood to drink...as he promised in the book of Revelation..

You are blinded by your sin and by the influence of the devil. If you approached the Koran with an open mind and an open heart, you'd find that it is the true word of God. You can't see it because you're full of hate and tribulation, and because Satan has corrupted you with all his false talk about his son Jesus.

(Moderators. Is it ok that I continue this line of argument? I'm assuming that you understand where I'm going with this. If it's not cool, let me know)

well as the bible says, who is blind as my servant? of deaf, as my messenger that i sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the lords servant?
seeing many things and seeing not and hearing many things and hearing not..
The lord is well pleased for his righteousness sake he will magnify the law and make it honourable..

Yada yada yada. Here is the only thing that is definitely 100% true and nobody can deny. You worship the devil. That's why you fail to see that Allah is the One True God and Mohammed is His Prophet.

You hate God, and that's why you worship Satan.

Also, you worship Satan because by doing that you can continue sinning without being answerable to anybody. And probably you had some bad experience with Islam when you were a child, and that's why you can't find it in you to love the One True God, Allah the Merciful.

That's it. This truth appeared to me in a personal revelation that was very very powerful, therefore it cannot be disputed. It's true. You worship Satan.

Praise Allah.

but Jesus said, that those who come to him would be at war with there own families..A father against his son; a mother against family and so on...incidently there is another prediction made by Jesus how division over him would divide...and this is found everywhere Christianity is ...

Praise Allah the Merciful! You are absolutely right, Christianity breeds hatred, confusion, chaos. That's because, as the Holy Prophet clearly says, Jesus is the Son of Satan. Thank you for providing this crushing indisputable proof that Christianity is Satanic.

I just have one question for you: Why do you hate God? He created you. He is your father. Why do you hate him?

Why do you worship Satan and His Son Jesus? Why?

It seems you have strayed away from your original concept about biblical prophecies which I have richly provided you with fulfilled prophecy and of course you are covering up your failure to properly dispute it..
How did Islam enter into this thread..I was talking about Daniel chp 2 ??

you accuse me with being blind..and I say that's not a bad thing with my response ..the bible blesses those with a single mind...Islam is another story..I don't wish to argue it with you ..

Those who worship Satan are quick to hide in shame when discovered. No wonder you don't want to talk about it. Go back to your dark basement and enjoy your satanic rituals. Praise Allah.

[Paradigm]

Praise Allah the Merciful! You are absolutely right, Christianity breeds hatred, confusion, chaos. That's because, as the Holy Prophet clearly says, Jesus is the Son of Satan. Thank you for providing this crushing indisputable proof that Christianity is Satanic.

I just have one question for you: Why do you hate God? He created you. He is your father. Why do you hate him?

Why do you worship Satan and His Son Jesus? Why?

Quran knowledge fail. Jesus, may peace be upon Him, is not considered the son of Satan in Islam. He is regarded as the messiah in Islam just as in Christianity and is esteemed as a great prophet who foretold the coming of Mohammed.