Big Bang Theory

[Confused]

Although the big bang theory is famous, it's also widely misunderstood. A common misperception about the theory is that it describes the origin of the universe. That's not quite right. The big bang is an attempt to explain how the universe developed from a very tiny, dense state into what it is today. It doesn't attempt to explain what initiated the creation of the universe, or what came before the big bang or even what lies outside the universe. Did some intentional action lead to the creation?
Another misconception is that the big bang was a kind of explosion. That's not accurate either. The big bang describes the expansion of the universe. While some versions of the theory refer to an incredibly rapid expansion (possibly faster than the speed of light), it's still not an explosion in the classic sense.
Summing up the big bang theory is a challenge. It involves concepts that contradict the way we perceive the world. The earliest stages of the big bang focus on a moment in which all the separate forces of the universe were part of a unified force. The laws of science begin to break down the further back you look. Eventually, you can't make any scientific theories about what is happening, because science itself doesn't apply.
At the earliest moments of the big bang, all of the matter, energy and space we could observe was compressed to an area of zero volume and infinite density. Cosmologists call this a singularity.

This is the point where things seem to get sticky for me. What caused the Singularity to expand into the Big Bang Theory? And what was the origin of the Singularity? Because of the limitations of the laws of science, we can't make any guesses about the instant the universe came into being. Instead, we can look at the period immediately following the creation of the universe. Right now, the earliest moment scientists talk about occurs at t = 1 x 10-43 seconds (the "t" stands for the time after the creation of the universe). In other words, take the number 1.0 and move the decimal place to the left 43 times.

So up for debate, is there any way we can actually study the Singularity and the cause of said Singularity leading to the "Big Bang"? Do we need to insert a God into the process to justify the statement "The universe was created" or is there a competing natural process that can explain it. While I realize that most can say that just because the universe came into existence doesn't mean we need insert a creator to make it happen, take note, I am aware of this. However, this being a religious debating forum, I am looking for any competing religious justification as well and any competing scientific justification. Hence, placing this thread in the "Science and Religion" forum.

So to clarify: For debate:
1) What methodology could we use to study the actual Singularity?
2) Is there any methodology we can use to determine the cause of the Singularity progressing to the "Big Bang"?
3) What does religion hypothesize as being the Singularity? Please note, if you insert God here, you must justify His being the Singularity.
4) What does science have to show in the form of evidence that would negate the insertion of a creator setting off the Singularity to initiate the Big Bang leading to the future universe we now reside it. What does religion have in the form of evidence that a creator was needed to bring the Singularity into existence and is there any evidence that said creator actually initiated the Big Bang?

(Please note, a heavily relied on source for information from this thread came from:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/dictio ... heory1.htm )

[mich]

Hello Arian:

It seems that the interesting comments you made are somewhat out of context from the thread. I will say that I believe that God "interacts" with us in such a way that we feel as though He lives in a timelike dimention, and all that you've written centers on this. However, I believe that this is due to our human experience. I personally believe that the past is not something that existed, but is something that exists in our experiencing the present....and even the term present is somewhat confusing...does it mean the last minute, second, millisecond? I personally believe that consciousness is an eternal state, having no present past or futur.

Andre

Theists say that God is eternally existent. How this is understood depends on which definition of eternity is used. On one hand, God may exist in eternity, a timeless existence where categories of past, present, and future just do not apply.

Hello Mich.

Not really, categories of past, present, and future do apply, "I knew you in your mothers womb, before you were formed", remember?

If you read Gen 1, you will see that there was time with God; Day 1 God created the heavens and the earth, Day 2 He created the firmament, day 3 He separated the waters and so on.

Only the measurement of time is different for God than for man. For man, time is measured by the rotation of the earth, sun up to sun down, and sun up again, one day.

For God, time is measured by the completion of a part of a set project that He put His mind to. Kind of like; "Today I will do this, when I'm done, I'll call it a day."

Example:

Gen 1:6-8
6 Then God said,"Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
NKJV

We were created in Gods image, so everything we have and live by resembles that of our Creator. As an 'image', not the real thing.

Another words, God is not limited by any outside force, or tiredness, for there is nothing outside, or 'besides God', and He has endless energy. As I said, God alone determines when His 'day' is over, and as we read, it is when He completed a determined project. The day He completes a project could be as long as a thousand years for us;

2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
NKJV

...Augustine of Hippo wrote that time exists only within the created universe, so that God exists outside time; for God there is no past or future, but only an eternal present

I believe Augustine was wrong, and here is why;

God/Eternity is NOT some place where all events; past, present and future are all mixed up as in a blender, but the past, present and future are neatly organized into events, and is examined by the Creator as He wishes, at any time He wishes, where He can create better, and more variety of things. If you look at the snow-flakes, the trees, the leaves on each tree, and every human ever created, are different, because our Creator is anything but boring.

God placed/created his character into us all, where we can enjoy this variety in nature, the valleys with their flowering beauty, the mountains in their awesome grandeur, the oceans with all the millions upon millions of different life forms, all for us to enjoy. Why?
Because He enjoys these things too.

There is a Day when God will come and destroy the earth and throw all those that refused to worship Him as their Creator into a place called hell. That 'Day' is already planned out, set after the 'fulfillement' of the predetirmined events.

So the past, the present and future do apply.

Luke 21:24
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
NKJV

Luke 21:28
28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
NKJV

Mark 1:14-15
Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
NKJV

Take care my friend.

Odon

[McCulloch]

McCulloch, or Goat may I ask you guys 'again' what do YOU think the pea-sized universe was doing before the Big-Bang? Were there any radiation, or some molecules, gasses or ANYTHING moving within the tiny universe?

We don't know. Furthermore, it appears as if we cannot know. One interpretation is that there could be no before the big-bang. It is like asking what it is like to be colder than absolute zero or being less than nothing.

I do not claim to have "any" qualification in arguing against any scientific theory.

I am glad to hear this. Others here imagine that they have disproven certain scientific theories.

Now, McCulloch, you do not seem to believe that the transition of the point of singularity to the beginning of what we call the universe,that is, the creation of spacetime, matter and all of the laws of physics which we know and observe, as not being a creation at all. If the observable universe came forth from the singularity, that which has no characteristic resembling the universe, how can it "not" be called a creation?

Well, not a creation per se. That is creation from nothing (creatio ex nihilo). There are a number of transitions believed to have happened in the expansion and cooling of the universe: During the Planck Epoch, the four fundamental forces were one; During the Grand Unification Epoch, Gravitation separates from the other fundamental forces; During the Electro-weak epoch the Strong force is separated; During the Quark epoch, the electro-magnetic force separates from the weak force, quarks emerge; During the Hadron epoch, quarks combine into protons and neutrons; During the Lepton epoch, electrons and other leptons emerge. The end of the first ten seconds after the big bang. All of these entities are emergent. Their existence emerge from the physics of a rapidly expanding universe.

Without consciousness, could the universe actually exist?

Sure, why not? Consciousness is an emergent quality.

[McCulloch]

CREATION:
Gen 1:1-2
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
NKJV

In the beginning - 'time'

Yes, the Judeo-Christian creation myth, like other creation myths, takes place before anything else. What would you expect?

God created the heavens - 'space'

The heavens described in Gen 1 is not even close to the concept of what we now call space.

[font=Georgia]God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. God called the expanse heaven.[/font]

and the earth - 'matter'

You are stretching the text. Earth here is not the same as matter.

[...]
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light " We know that this was before God created the sun or the stars, so light here means order. God created/commanded order

Light is created according to this myth after earth and after water.

The rest of the creation story reveals that everything was created on purpose, for a purpose. Each animal was created according to its kind, and so on.

And when they had achieved that purpose, they became extinct. Right?

Want to hear the rest of the story?

I've already read the book. Thanks.

[arian]

If the universe was shrinking before the big-bang, then by the definition of time, time existed before the big-bang.

I agree, if the universe was shrinking before the big-bang, then there must have been a time before the big-bang. Do you know if the universe was shrinking before the big-bang? Did I miss something?

Sorry McCulloch, I just visualize a lot more than what I say or ask here, which as you can see from others responces, seems to come from ignorance. The Big bang theory is very complicated and is very hard to comprehend, let alone explain. I am not talking about what happens 'after inflation', but how, why and where it occurred?

I started with the word 'nothing', and proved that nothing does not exist, neither in this physical realm, nor in the Spiritual one, as long as we can see, hear, or sense using our senses. But we can think, or imagine 'nothing' and use it as a concept (as you said) every day.

What I'm saying is that even though the concept exists, the actual nothing does not.

Now here is where everyone here so far takes to ignorance, and just because they do not understand something, the person making the statement must be ignorant about science, and if that person is a Christian, .. well, .. what can we accept from someone who believes in a flat earth held up by four pillars. (Funny how these same people can imagine a flat universe???)

Now I studied a little more, and realized why atheist-science tries to avoid going beyond, or 'before' the big bang, to a point they even redefined the big-bang theory with a quiet poof... like the sound that blowing up a balloon makes, even to the point that they claim the galaxies are spread out flat like dots on the outside of an expanding balloon.

Now what's inside the balloon, or what is outside it, we are not to ask. This is why I said it is just like the Trinity Doctrine in Christianity, where they say: "God is three-gods-in-one, and is not to be debated, but used to imagine a plural God"

Sorry, but I cannot accept neither one, as long as I can use my brain, and reason, the universe is not in some pre-something space before space that no one want's to talk about.

Fine, now there wasn't a BIG BANG, but a quiet 'inflation'. Here I read an article where it actually hints on what I am saying. But first, lets look what Wikipedia has to say:

In inflationary cosmology, times prior to the end of inflation (roughly 1032 seconds after the Big Bang) do not follow the traditional big bang timeline. The universe before the end of inflation is a near-vacuum with a very low temperature, and persists for much longer than 1032 second. Times from the end of inflation are based on the big bang time of the non-inflationary big bang model, not on the actual age of the universe at that time, which cannot be determined in inflationary cosmology. Thus, in inflationary cosmology there is no Planck epoch in the traditional sense, though similar conditions may have prevailed in a pre-inflationary era of the universe.

Now the article;

Inflation by itself is not the final answer, and we need a theory of why inflation started.

(note: this article still does not ask my question; "Where it started and where does it reside?" But at least it tries to go past the big bang, or actually 'before it')

Here, it is crucial to note that in conventional non-inflationary cosmology, our current observable universe was about a centimeter across at the Planck time. Thats a huge size by particle physics standards. In inflation, by contrast, the whole universe could have fit into a Planck volume, 10-33 centimeters across, much tinier indeed. So for some people (like me), the benefit of inflation is not that its more natural, its that it presents an easier target for a true theory of initial conditions, even if we dont have such a theory yet.


The point here is that most " essentially all " models of inflation lead to the prediction that inflation never completely ends. The vicissitudes of quantum fluctuations imply that even inflation doesnt smooth out everything perfectly. As a result, inflation will end in some places, but in other places it keeps going. Where it keeps going, space expands at a fantastic rate. In some parts of that region, inflation eventually ends, but in others it keeps going. And that process continues forever, with some part of the universe perpetually undergoing inflation.

Thats how the multiverse gets off the ground " were left with a chaotic jumble consisting of numerous pocket universes separated by regions of inflating spacetime.

Even though this 'hints' on my question, it does not include the 'where' these multi-universes would have to reside in.


Now to your quote:

Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasnt there
He wasnt there again today
Oh, how I wish hed go away

Last night upon starring at the sky
I seen a universe that really wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
I wait for the Day it'll go away

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up
NKJV

So if we did not have a big-bang in in the theory, we'll have a big one when it ends

Yesterday, I gave you nothing. Where did you put it? Do you see what I'm saying? It is meaningless to ask where the nothing went.

No it's NOT meaningless, but you just don't understand.
If you would have given me the 'nothing' yesterday, I would have put it in the bottom of my glass, and the water. It is just hanging there upside down with only a piece of thin-hard plastic, defying gravity, waiting for your 'nothing'. So please, give me the 'nothing' I have been waiting for to appear.

Look, imagine this universe getting smaller and smaller in this 'nothing' where, as you said even light has no place to go.

It does not matter if the universe is getting smaller or getting larger, the fallacy is in thinking that there exists some sort of nothing beyond the universe. The universe may be finite but unbounded. In this view, there is nothing beyond the universe, not that there is something called nothing beyond the universe.

The one I fret about the most is the unitarity or Liouville problem. This is essentially Penroses original critique, updated to eternal inflation.

Liouvilles Theorem in classical mechanics states that if you take a certain number of states and evolve them forward in time, you will end up with precisely the same number of states you started with; states arent created or destroyed. So imagine that there is some number of states which qualify as initial conditions for inflation. Then eternal inflation says we can evolve them forward and get a collection of universes that grows with time. The problem is that, as this collection grows, there is an increasing number of states that look identical to them, but which didnt begin with a single tiny inflating patch at all. (Just like an ice cube in a glass of water will evolve to a glass of cooler water, but most glasses of cool water didnt start with an ice cube in them.) So while it might be true that you can generate an infinite number of universes, at the same time the fraction of such states that actually began in a single inflating patch goes to zero just as quickly. It is far from clear that this picture actually increases the probability that a universe like ours started from inflation.

There is an obvious way out of this challenge, which is to say that all of these numbers of states are simply infinite, and this purported calculation just divides infinity by infinity and gets nonsense.

You see, it is NOT my understanding of a physical 'nothing' that is the problem, but science (along with you, AND those calling me ignorant here) inability to understand.

I have set up a 'physical experiment' to create nothing. I know this nothing is very strong, because it defies even the force of gravity. I can use a two ounce glass, or a twenty ounce glass full of water, which is ten times the gravity, and I even shined 'light' in it, the 'nothing' defies everything, even light and gravity.

Now all we need to do is agree 'what' this universe resides in, .. or more accurately put, 'WHOM' the universe resides in?

The universe does not reside in anything. The universe is everything.

I was so happy this morning, as i was studying the Big bang theory in Wikipedia, a YouTube video appeared on the bottom of my screen (I forgot now what it was called, I'll try to find it again) and it showed the earth, ground level first, then it zoomed out into space, past our solar system, past our galaxy, past all the galaxies, ..... and, ... and, ... I was waiting, ... waiting, ... and to my great disappointment, it stopped, and started zooming IN again to earths ground level.

Funny, there is a 'picture of the universe' created by an artist, kind of egg-shaped, .. with 'blank paper' still left 'blank' around this egg-shaped universe.

Now I, the Christian-Odon ask you; "what is the blank around the egg-shaped universe?"

The answer: "Blank PAPER"

So we cannot even draw the universe that you say is so big and so old, without that something outside it describing how it actually is believed it looks; in this case, egg-shaped.

Now I will not even go into how the size of the universe was established, .. it is too ridiculous to even debate. But to say it has an oval shape when the universe is as you said; "all there is", is .. well, ... I'll just say: "Childish".

Odon.

[mich]

]
Now, McCulloch, you do not seem to believe that the transition of the point of singularity to the beginning of what we call the universe,that is, the creation of spacetime, matter and all of the laws of physics which we know and observe, as not being a creation at all. If the observable universe came forth from the singularity, that which has no characteristic resembling the universe, how can it "not" be called a creation?

Well, not a creation per se. That is creation from nothing (creatio ex nihilo). There are a number of transitions believed to have happened in the expansion and cooling of the universe: During the Planck Epoch, the four fundamental forces were one; During the Grand Unification Epoch, Gravitation separates from the other fundamental forces; During the Electro-weak epoch the Strong force is separated; During the Quark epoch, the electro-magnetic force separates from the weak force, quarks emerge; During the Hadron epoch, quarks combine into protons and neutrons; During the Lepton epoch, electrons and other leptons emerge. The end of the first ten seconds after the big bang. All of these entities are emergent. Their existence emerge from the physics of a rapidly expanding universe.

Planck's Epoch is the begining of spacetime and whatever other potentials which would later on develop as being what we call the universe. Before the planck Epoch, there existed the singularity, which was absent of spacetime. We cannot leave the metaphysical realm, and so the Planck Epoch having been derived from the singularity will always remain a philosophical claim. Even the Planck Epoch itself, wherein the fundamental forces existed as one unified force, must be seen,in my opinion, as metaphysical as well for noone can even imagine the existance of such a force; notice that the strong, weak gravitational forces existed before the existance of massive particles. While the energy density would most probably be cause of such a force, there must have been another opposite and much greater force responsible for the expansion. Now, these two opposite forces
could not have existed within the singularity; so, how were they created?

Without consciousness, could the universe actually exist?

Sure, why not? Consciousness is an emergent quality.

Indeed it could; however, such an argument is a philosophical one as well, since no scientific evidence is put forward. Also, there are scientific evidence leading to a philosophical hypothesis which points to the belief in consciousness as being instrinsic to the universe.

http://deepakchopra.com/2011/04/is-the- ... -hameroff/

Did consciousness emerge at a critical point during biological evolution, e.g. as a by-product of complex computation among brain neurons? Conventional science takes this view. Or has consciousness, in some sense, always been out there, everywhere, with biology evolving to best access and connect to it?
Cosmology also points to intelligence, if not consciousness, intrinsic to the universe.
Why is our universe capable of stars, life and consciousness, all dependent on precise values for a large set of fundamental constants and forces? The odds against us are astronomical. Yet here we are. Conventional science, for example Hawking and Mlodinow in their book Grand Design, claim a near-infinite multitude of parallel universes, this particular one being just right. We won the cosmic lottery! But there is no evidence nor even possible testing for this claim. An alternative view, consistent with wisdom traditions, is intelligence or consciousness embedded in the fine structure of reality from the Big Bang, perhaps from a previous incarnation of the universe as suggested by Roger Penrose in his recent book Cycles of Time (for which evidence does exist).

Andre

[arian]

Hello Arian:

It seems that the interesting comments you made are somewhat out of context from the thread. I will say that I believe that God "interacts" with us in such a way that we feel as though He lives in a timelike dimention, and all that you've written centers on this.

Thank you mich, I understand my post may seem out of context because the POST itself assumes things that contradicts the way Bible God is clearly explained in the Bible. Now of course if 'God' is simply a term to fill in gaps and unexplained phenomena, ... or refers to 'gods' in general, I should have first asked the question; 'which God?' .. right?

Genesis One explains 'time' with God before any interaction with man, or before man was even created. That is a good indication and starting point.

With man, time is measured by the rotation of the earth, one rotation divided by 24 hours.

With God, time is measured by the start of a thing, and when that action is completed, either by Him or us;

2 Peter 3:8-9
8 But do not forget one thing, my dear friends! There is no difference in the Lord's sight between one day and a thousand years; to him the two are the same.

Another words, if God sees a potential Believer, He will wait even if it takes 70-80 years for that person to come to Him. So until this action is completed, let's say 70 years for that person, that is like 'one event' or 'one day with God'.

9 The Lord is not slow to do what he has promised, as some think. Instead, he is patient with you, because he does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants all to turn away from their sins.
TEV

However, I believe that this is due to our human experience. I personally believe that the past is not something that existed, but is something that exists in our experiencing the present....and even the term present is somewhat confusing...does it mean the last minute, second, millisecond? I personally believe that consciousness is an eternal state, having no present past or future.
Andre

Good observation Andre, and you are right, there is no past that is somehow gone, but everything is an event as the Bible explains.

We get older weather or not the earth spins. The earth spinning backwards would not make time go in reverse, we would continue to get older, only we could say that we witnessed the earth go backwards for a time, within our life here on earth.

If I built a kit-car 30 years ago, it does not mean it is in the past, I built it, period. The only thing that makes time, or the rotation of the earth more obvious is that everything decays, and we get older and older. This happens whether or not the earth spins, or, it is NOT the earth spinning that makes us older and causes decay, it is the result of the punishment from God. Our body is dying, the universe itself is dying.

God set mans life here on earth at a certain lenght, approximately 70 earth years. Some people live for a day, some 50 years and others could live as long as a hundred, which proves that time is really irrelevant. It is just a way to measure events for us, and God still has the say when that 70 years are up, irrelevant to how many earth years have passed, one day or a hundred years.

When we get to Heaven, measuring time will not be needed anymore, we will get to enjoy ALL EVENTS at ANY MOMENT. Another words, if I create with my Lord one thing, or a million things, I can enjoy any one of them I choose for that moment, as long as I wish, since no one will be timing me, or anything keeping time in Heaven.

Exactly like you said; "that consciousness is an eternal state, having no present past or future." Andre, ... we don't have to die, as Jesus said;

John 8:51
51 I am telling you the truth: whoever obeys my teaching will never die."
TEV

John 10:25-28
The deeds I do by my Father's authority speak on my behalf; 26 but you will not believe, for you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never die.
TEV

John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
TEV

Welcome to eternity my friend, even if it is enjoyed only with our spiritual mind for now.

True Christianity is when two or more people become of one mind with God;

Rom 8:12-17
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors " not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs " heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

Odon

[Janx]

Hi Odon,

With God, time is measured by the start of a thing, and when that action is completed, either by Him or us;

Another words, if God sees a potential Believer, He will wait even if it takes 70-80 years for that person to come to Him. So until this action is completed, let's say 70 years for that person, that is like 'one event' or 'one day with God'.

• 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
  2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
  3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
  4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
  5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

How did you define day one of Genesis as "start of a thing" when clearly there were many things that were started and completed?

2 Peter 3:8-9
8 But do not forget one thing, my dear friends! There is no difference in the Lord's sight between one day and a thousand years; to him the two are the same.

• Genesis 1:5
  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Genesis 1:8
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

God of the Bible clearly understands the terminology and meaning of the word "day". Indeed the days are defined by the "evening and the morning" - events in the physical universe in the same way as we measure time.

I do not see how your proposed definition of "day" is supported by the bible.

[arian]

Hi Odon,

With God, time is measured by the start of a thing, and when that action is completed, either by Him or us;

Another words, if God sees a potential Believer, He will wait even if it takes 70-80 years for that person to come to Him. So until this action is completed, let's say 70 years for that person, that is like 'one event' or 'one day with God'.

• 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
  2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
  3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
  4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
  5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

How did you define day one of Genesis as "start of a thing" when clearly there were many things that were started and completed?

Thanks Janx, I'm glad you caught that. I could not think of the word that I was really looking for, so I used 'thing' when I meant 'event'. Sorry.

You see, every day I learn something new, and I'm sure that is one of the reasons you are here debating too, am I right? The past 7 years have been the greatest learning experience of my entire life, and it's getting better by the day. I never said I was smart or well educated, I learn as I go, and sometimes this learning process comes at me so fast that I don't know where to put it, you know, like my cup is overflowing. The thing is, that I get these complex concepts like the big bang, the speed of light, what is 'nothing', what is a perfect vacuum and so on, and I start to understand these things, and to my amazement, it is all there in the Bible. I compare everything I learn to Gods Word in the Bible, if it stands the test, I hold it as 'truth' but if it creates confusion, then I know something is wrong, and search for the real truth regarding the thing.

Now this is when I realize that many concepts have been tempered with, and gravely misused, like the speed of light for instance. I mean we have built particle-accelerators, and we still use the 100 some year old estimates??? Why?

Anyways, this is how I just came upon the subject of 'time'. I asked myself, 'how can time reside in an eternal God, who is not bound by time?' then, I ask with my spiritual mind the one who should know the answer, God.

To answer your above question, as I understand it from the Bible, God completes an 'event' as you listed above, and calls it a day.
Then He stops to rest and goes over what He created so far - evening, or the end of that day

Then, God gets ready and prepares whatever He needs to create the next project - morning or beginning of the next event.

Here is where God does all His work, called - Day

Morning is the planning stage, dayis the working stage, and evening is where God looks over what He has done so far and gives His approval by saying; "It is good"

Now how can I be sure of this? Easy, ... I look at Gods image, man, and this is exactly how we operate, imitating our Creator.

2 Peter 3:8-9
8 But do not forget one thing, my dear friends! There is no difference in the Lord's sight between one day and a thousand years; to him the two are the same.

• Genesis 1:5
  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Genesis 1:8
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

God of the Bible clearly understands the terminology and meaning of the word "day". Indeed the days are defined by the "evening and the morning" - events in the physical universe in the same way as we measure time.

I do not see how your proposed definition of "day" is supported by the bible.

Again, as I explained above. Just think, is it the sun going down that makes us tired and want to go to sleep? Of course not, the sun really never sets, right? So it is when we have worked hard and done all we can, and just as our Creator, we too call it a day.

Now I worked as a machinist, and ended up on night shift. The first 8 years I worked 12 hour days, from 6 PM to 6 AM. Now for me, evening was when the sun was just coming up. I remember driving home and as the sun was rising, I could barely keep my eyes open. After a few years of this, my body got used to it and could not even work days anymore, which gave me an edge, more money per hour and a lot of job openings.

So you see, it is the 'definition' of morning and evening that we share with our Creator, not the sun rising and setting.

[Janx]

With God, time is measured by the start of a thing, and when that action is completed, either by Him or us;

Genesis 1

• 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
  2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
  3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
  4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
  5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

How did you define day one of Genesis as "start of a thing" when clearly there were many things that were started and completed?

To answer your above question, as I understand it from the Bible, God completes an 'event' as you listed above, and calls it a day.

Hi Odon, you did not address the issue of there being multiple events in each day of Genesis.

Then He stops to rest and goes over what He created so far - evening, or the end of that day

• 9 Then God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
  11 Then God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.

Notice that God contemplates his work twice in one day.

Here is where God does all His work, called - Day

Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh DAY God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Morning is the planning stage

Please provide a Biblical reference to this?

[arian]

Hi Odon, you did not address the issue of there being multiple events in each day of Genesis.

We do that all the time, God should be able to also, no?

Then He stops to rest and goes over what He created so far - evening, or the end of that day

• 9 Then God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
  11 Then God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.

Notice that God contemplates his work twice in one day.

Yes, the reason must be as you pointed out "there being multiple events in each day"

Sorry but I haven't read anything about this subject, I just noticed it when I was learning about 'time'. It is nice to have someone help with this study, I'm sure there is a lot more things we can catch and build upon this understanding of time within an Eternal God.

Here is where God does all His work, called - Day

Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh DAY God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Isn't that the same for us, just when we think we're done for the week, a bunch of other important things come up that we must attend to? Especially when you have kids. God created a lot of children through Adam and Eve, and there went His rest. Jesus also worked by doing good on the Sabbath. Every day is a Sabbath for us, for we no longer work for strictly personal gain, but everything we do is as if was for the Lord, "Doing unto others as we would have them do to us."

Matt 12:8
8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
NKJV

Matt 12:11-13
11 Then He said to them, "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? 12 Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
NKJV

Matt 12:11-12
11 Then He said to them, "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? 12 Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
NKJV

Luke 13:15-17
15 The Lord then answered him and said, "Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it? 16 So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound " think of it " for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?"
NKJV

John 9:13-14
14 Now it was a Sabbath when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
NKJV

Morning is the planning stage

Please provide a Biblical reference to this?

Sure:

Gen 1:6-8
6 Then God said,"Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

So the evening and the morning were the second day.NKJV

Gen 1:11-13
11 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.NKJV

Gen 1:19
19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
NKJV

Gen 1:23
23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.NKJV

Notice God finishes in the evening, and the morning is the second, 3, 4, 5 'day'.

Gen 1:31
31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
NKJV

It doesn't have to repeat 'it was very good' every time God completed something, we get the message, and we agree, it was all very good. Neither is God bound by some timer, or a buzzer to tell Him when he should stop.

On the sixth day He took to rest, ..

... until the kids arrived and got into trouble of course. Then God had to go back to work to make clothes for them, teach them how to survive in a world with thorns, make them shoes, ... and so on. You have kids, .. well then I'm sure you know there is really no day of rest, right? We reflect our Creator, in many ways.

Odon