Where is religion going?

[Nec Spe Nec Metu]

As an American, it seems to me that, like politics, religion is being increasingly polarized. Not to over-simplify, but on one hand, you have liberal, non-dogmatic religionists and on the other you have conservative, fundamentalist religionists.

My question(s) for debate:

1)Where is religion going in the United States?

2)Where is religion going globally?

3)What are the consequences?

[Goat]

it is easy to believe if he is who he says he is..

Show me something where Jesus personally tells us ANYTHING about "who he says he is." In fact Jesus wrote NOTHING himself, so all we have are the things other people wrote about him many decades after his death. Which includes the story that Jesus' corpse returned to life and then flew away. Does that seem a perfectly likely story to you? Or would a reasonable person have cause to doubt it?

No question that people will doubt it..but since it was written nearly two thousand years before my birth, and me having the mind of a scientist according to my sixth grade English teacher
I will give you my logical conclusion based upon my own experience with Him who is risen from the dead...

Please provide evidence that you have 'your own experience with him who was risen from the dead'. Can you demonstrate it was not a self generated emotional reaction followed by cultural conditioning for interpretation?


Pleaes provide evidence that you speak accurate facts.

My experience is Pentecostal which I had not heard of until Just days upon receiving ..they had me be re-baptized in Jesus' name....
how ever when I experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit , I learned later that I was my labor till the end of my strength ....

God wanting me to understand from the beginning that it was grace that saved me not my labor...he made me see that I spent all my strength for naught, I labored in vain ...so that i would understand the eternal principle that it's a gift from heaven and there is nothing that we can ever do to attain it..Then did I understand what is written in Isa. 49:4..This is my personal experience ...It is the best form of knowledge there is..I do not have to depend on other men..to know God...
Without preaching to you...But this is what the New Testament was ever meant to be ...that every person can know God for himself..There are many checks and balances in the Bible, to guide us..
So sorry so many have never known.. but so many crafty people.

So, let's analyze your claim.

You were getting baptized in a religious ceremony, where the emotions were running high.. with a lot of the pentecostal 'praise the lord' , and 'bless Jesus' .. and you had a strong emotional experience, where the social expectations were to interpret it to be 'filling of the holy spirit'.

In other words, you were in an environment that invoked strong emotions, in circumstances that promoted a specific interpretation of those strong emotions.

While I am sure you are convinced, this does point out the issue I have with religious experiences being promoted as 'evidence'.

[riverslivnwtr]

it is easy to believe if he is who he says he is..

Show me something where Jesus personally tells us ANYTHING about "who he says he is." In fact Jesus wrote NOTHING himself, so all we have are the things other people wrote about him many decades after his death. Which includes the story that Jesus' corpse returned to life and then flew away. Does that seem a perfectly likely story to you? Or would a reasonable person have cause to doubt it?

No question that people will doubt it..but since it was written nearly two thousand years before my birth, and me having the mind of a scientist according to my sixth grade English teacher
I will give you my logical conclusion based upon my own experience with Him who is risen from the dead...

Please provide evidence that you have 'your own experience with him who was risen from the dead'. Can you demonstrate it was not a self generated emotional reaction followed by cultural conditioning for interpretation?


Pleaes provide evidence that you speak accurate facts.

My experience is Pentecostal which I had not heard of until Just days upon receiving ..they had me be re-baptized in Jesus' name....
how ever when I experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit , I learned later that I was my labor till the end of my strength ....

God wanting me to understand from the beginning that it was grace that saved me not my labor...he made me see that I spent all my strength for naught, I labored in vain ...so that i would understand the eternal principle that it's a gift from heaven and there is nothing that we can ever do to attain it..Then did I understand what is written in Isa. 49:4..This is my personal experience ...It is the best form of knowledge there is..I do not have to depend on other men..to know God...
Without preaching to you...But this is what the New Testament was ever meant to be ...that every person can know God for himself..There are many checks and balances in the Bible, to guide us..
So sorry so many have never known.. but so many crafty people.

So, let's analyze your claim.

You were getting baptized in a religious ceremony, where the emotions were running high.. with a lot of the pentecostal 'praise the lord' , and 'bless Jesus' .. and you had a strong emotional experience, where the social expectations were to interpret it to be 'filling of the holy spirit'.

In other words, you were in an environment that invoked strong emotions, in circumstances that promoted a specific interpretation of those strong emotions.

While I am sure you are convinced, this does point out the issue I have with religious experiences being promoted as 'evidence'.

you might be willing to think that......but the night at home away from all...The strong idea came into my mind to look in John 7: perhaps for Goat.
because I had no idea what rivers of living water was until I look upon that page and found it written there..it was another confirmation to me, from God Himself ..No one ever said a word about living water before that day...I had read the new Testament at least twice. and never noticed it...but it came to my rememberance as Jesus said in John 14 or 15...
I have thirty years experience alone with the Holy Spirit,.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 32:

...
I had read the new Testament at least twice. and never noticed it
...

Evidence of shoddy scholarship.

...
I have thirty years experience alone with the Holy Spirit
...

And little, it would seem, with your holy text.

[riverslivnwtr]

From Post 32:

...
I had read the new Testament at least twice. and never noticed it
...

Evidence of shoddy scholarship.

...
I have thirty years experience alone with the Holy Spirit
...

And little, it would seem, with your holy text.

shoddy scholarship or as i believe they were hidden from me..
experience tells me so...

[Tired of the Nonsense]

The scriptural verse I mentioned , says that out of my belly shall flow
rivers of living water....This happened to me the first Wednesday night in
the month of May 1978;
placing the impetus upon me to proclaim and declare that the gospel of Christ is true...
myself being a living witness..many will not believe it ..
because it is much too wonderful to be true..

Yes, you were convinced and remain convinced of the truth and power of your very personal and very subjective experience. Your faith is whole, it is complete and unswerving. I do notice that faith is like that among people no matter what religion they happen to subscribe to, (and overwhelmingly that ends up being the religion of their parents). But their faith will be whole, complete and unswerving. It could hardly be called faith otherwise, could it? Like the faith of American Christian radio host Harold Camping and his followers. The rapture would occur on May 21, 2011, and the end of the world would occur on October 21, 2011. There could be no doubt... scripture said so. Many of his followers quit their jobs and sold all of their possessions, then traveled about with big signs proclaiming the end of the world. Their faith was whole, complete and unswerving. And the whole claim turned out to be one huge measure of bull snot, the whole complete unswerving nature of their faith notwithstanding. Harold Camping, who stood and proclaimed the Gospels to be true, now stands exposed to the world as just another sad, foolish old man. Because the universe does not operate on an individual's subjective emotional wants and needs, nor on any whole and complete faith that one's strong personal warm fuzzy good feelings must therefore have some special validity. The universe operates on the truth, whatever that happens to be. Like the fact that corpses do not become reanimated and fly away, and the fact that everyone who lived 2,000 years ago died, and has remained uniformly and reliably DEAD!

[Autodidact]

As an American, it seems to me that, like politics, religion is being increasingly polarized. Not to over-simplify, but on one hand, you have liberal, non-dogmatic religionists and on the other you have conservative, fundamentalist religionists.

My question(s) for debate:

1)Where is religion going in the United States?

2)Where is religion going globally?

3)What are the consequences?

Statistically, it appears to be going away.

[Flail]

As an American, it seems to me that, like politics, religion is being increasingly polarized. Not to over-simplify, but on one hand, you have liberal, non-dogmatic religionists and on the other you have conservative, fundamentalist religionists.

My question(s) for debate:

1)Where is religion going in the United States?

2)Where is religion going globally?

3)What are the consequences?

Statistically, it appears to be going away.

As to radical concepts of Biblical literalism, one could only hope you are correct...and I think you are. It may not be so apparent from deep in the heart of Texas, but the more I travel I recognize that the BibleBelt may be shrinking and losing its influence...but there is much work to be done to get rid of it altogether.

[Adurumus]

Statistically, it appears to be going away.

Perhaps it's getting less powerful or influential, but the "decline" is easy to over-represent. ~53% of Americans would never vote for an Atheist for office, 2007 gallup poll.

[riverslivnwtr]

The scriptural verse I mentioned , says that out of my belly shall flow
rivers of living water....This happened to me the first Wednesday night in
the month of May 1978;
placing the impetus upon me to proclaim and declare that the gospel of Christ is true...
myself being a living witness..many will not believe it ..
because it is much too wonderful to be true..

Yes, you were convinced and remain convinced of the truth and power of your very personal and very subjective experience. Your faith is whole, it is complete and unswerving. I do notice that faith is like that among people no matter what religion they happen to subscribe to, (and overwhelmingly that ends up being the religion of their parents). But their faith will be whole, complete and unswerving. It could hardly be called faith otherwise, could it? Like the faith of American Christian radio host Harold Camping and his followers. The rapture would occur on May 21, 2011, and the end of the world would occur on October 21, 2011. There could be no doubt... scripture said so. Many of his followers quit their jobs and sold all of their possessions, then traveled about with big signs proclaiming the end of the world. Their faith was whole, complete and unswerving. And the whole claim turned out to be one huge measure of bull snot, the whole complete unswerving nature of their faith notwithstanding. Harold Camping, who stood and proclaimed the Gospels to be true, now stands exposed to the world as just another sad, foolish old man. Because the universe does not operate on an individual's subjective emotional wants and needs, nor on any whole and complete faith that one's strong personal warm fuzzy good feelings must therefore have some special validity. The universe operates on the truth, whatever that happens to be. Like the fact that corpses do not become reanimated and fly away, and the fact that everyone who lived 2,000 years ago died, and has remained uniformly and reliably DEAD!

quite a sermon...long before Harold Camping was the Roman Catholic Church...and all the protastants along with them and there has to be yet millions who have dis credited Christianity ..

Which is why The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is given; that which you responded to above in your post happened to me.. And I am not asking you to do anything... regarding it..If you want to use Harold Camping and the many minnions like him that's fine with me; I am not accountable for any of their actions whatsoever ..I am free from any guilt and yes I am complete in Christ who also is the head of all principality...

right now with all the many reasons to doubt.......
he can take you any time he wants and make a believer out of you..
Baptize you in the Holy Ghost and make you live out the very misery I have endure already myself,...make you even a slave to his will; in the face of all opposition what could you do and what would do if you had the unshakable evidence ....

Hint; I am not angry whatsoever with Harold Camping; My Pastor , deceased , John Osteen came from Camping's denomination.....

and when I look at Camping's picture I see a certain similar resemblance in Bro. Osteen ..except Bro. Osteen always had a smile on his face..... and i say

to myself there except for the grace of God go Bro. Osteen

speaking of Bro. Osteen who died early this past latter decade ; left his Church to his Son Joel; whose pastoring has enable the Church to quickly grow into the largest Church in The USA ....

[McCulloch]

Hint; I am not angry whatsoever with Harold Camping; My Pastor , deceased , John Osteen came from Camping's denomination.....

You don't get bad fruit from a good tree, do you. Camping's prophetic methods have been discredited. Osteen's will be too.

speaking of Bro. Osteen who died early this past latter decade ; left his Church to his Son Joel; whose pastoring has enable the Church to quickly grow into the largest Church in The USA ....

Big does not necessarily mean right.


I have a real problem believing that this is what the New Testament writers had in mind.

From Lakewood Church: What we believe
We believe the entire Bible is inspired by God, without error and the authority on which we base our faith, conduct and doctrine.

Yet, Victoria Osteen is listed as a co-pastor. Pastors according to the New Testament, are the ones who lead, see 1 Peter 5:1,2, where the elders are to shepherd (pastor) the flock of God. Yet Paul, in more than one of his writings, makes it very clear that women are not to lead men in the church.


This is not the picture of someone who is quietly receiving instruction with entire submissiveness, ask her own husband at home if she has a question.