Dear Athiests:

[sickles]

Im not an athiest, but nor would i classify myself as a thiest. From my pecarious viewpoint upon the fence, i would like to ask a few questions that perhaps hadnt occured to you.

There are some rules id like to follow in responding to this thread.

1. Leave your ego at the door. I understand that you have been convinced /experienced convicing evidence/lack of evidence. I respect that. We should also understand that these are subjective and therefore irrelevant. Even science is objective at a point.

2. I want you to inquire with me. We are going to make a non-scientific inquiry, and so we dont need science. No arrogance or certaintude please. Lets not kid ourselves.

3. As a fence balancer, I must insist that we not talk to each other in an "unprofessional" way. Lets all pretend we are all "professional humans" as we can all read, talk, type and converse, and manipulate things with our thumbs (sorry if you cant) . Addressing each other an undue amount can produce tangents that are irrelevant and non constructive.

4. Assume you know nothing.

Question for debate:

If you were curious about the existance of a god (athiests, before you QQ please read rule 1,2 and 4.) and you had no knowledge of god and neither did anyone else, where would you look? Im not saying what kind of evidence may be found there, or wether that evidence convinced you of a god or of no god. Im asking, where would you look? would you look in a book? would you look amongst man? amongst the universe? where (please please for the love of all that is holy *snicker* be VERY VERY specific.)

There is more about this debate, but I wish to read some responses first. Thanks.

[arian]

learn who my God of the Bible is. You will soon come to the conclusion that the gods (including todays Christian-gods) are NOT the Bible-God,

I would agree with you that sickles last post was a bit confusing to say the least but I am totally lost on this. Can you please explain?

Thank you Baz, and I sure can. I have posted this on "My God I'm an atheist" sub forum some time ago, and it explains why all the confusion in this world about our Creator God.

Starting from about 325 AD, after the Gentile pagan church established the "Trinity Doctrine" the definition of Bible-God, our Creator was redifined to go along with this doctrine. The world has attached GOD the Great I Am to other gods as in 'theism' along with other 'divine beings' that supposedly communicate with our minds through 'divinations' from the 'supernatural realm'. These are opposing forces and pagan beliefs that have nothing to do with our God of the Bible.

My God, Im an atheist POST

Divine and divinations

Peace and contentment as described by Christian theist today does not rely on truth, but is a delusion. It is as fake as the smile on the greeters faces standing at the Mega-Church doors and as fake as the cry-for her followers grocery money by Paul and Jan Crouch of the Trinity Broadcasting Network.

Here is why I say this:
The name Christian originally was given to those of the early Church (also called; The Way) who followed in the footsteps of Christ and meant Christ-Like. But once the pagan church took it over about 1,700 years ago, they split God into three entities and absorbed these three gods into the hundreds they already worshipped. Christian was no more an identity of the followers of the Messiah of God, but became the new name of this New Gentile Pagan church.

Even before the birth of Christ in our Gentile world, if anyone did not worship the Greek and Roman gods were named atheists and were punished severely, or withheld citizen privileges, or both. This continued into the Christian era; If you cant beat them (Christians), join them.

Under this new and corrupt Trinitarian Christian Church, the old anti-pagan god worship was re-implemented and anyone refusing to bow down and accept the mark of the Beast (the triangle with the All Seeing Eye, within the trinity-doctrine) was persecuted.

The word atheism;

The term atheism originated from the Greek (atheos), meaning "without god", which was applied with a negative connotation to those thought to reject the gods worshipped by the larger society. With the spread of freethought, skeptical inquiry, and subsequent increase in criticism of religion, application of the term narrowed in scope. The first individuals to identify themselves as "atheist" appeared in the 18th century (Wikipedia)

So wait a minute, if I dont serve the Trinitarian gods, or the hundreds of other gods of the church including the Mother of god then I am called an atheist? Then the question came to me, what exactly is Theism?

THEISM (McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia)
The etymological opposite of theism can only be atheism, since the word designates a conception of the universe according to which a Deity rules over nature and men, and the atheistic view denies the existence of the Deity and divine powers. Various specific contrasts are, however, contained under this general meaning of the term,

monotheism
polytheism,
deism
pantheism.
Agnostic,
Agnostic Theist,
Agnostic Atheist,
Christian Agnostics (distinct from a Christian who is agnostic)

In an attempt to place the God of the Bible the Great I Am in line with the rest of the gods, the Great Harlot Church had to identify Him along with the other supernatural deities, and they came up with the Trinity Doctrine to achieve this. Once the nave population accepted the three-in-one god over God the Great I Am, they conniving lined Him up with the others and reinstated the old gods into their temples (church) by renaming them all from names found in the Bible.

Because of the conflict that arose over time from all this, it sprouted new General conceptions like;

Agnosticism Apatheism Atheism Deism
Henotheism Monolatrism Monotheism
Panentheism Pantheism Transtheism and new ones popping up all the time.

Definition;
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.

If Theism is believing in at least one deity, and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not some divine supernatural deity, then He is not one amongst the many deities, nor is He the monotheist God of the Muslim faith.

Many have placed God as a being; God as the highest existing Being, to which predicates such as

omnipotence,
omniscience,
omnipresence,
goodness,
righteousness,
holiness, etc.

Because of every definition of the Christian God in dictionaries and encyclopedias came from the theists or the atheists who believed (or not) our God to be one amongst many, I had a hard time explaining in simple language how I understand God the Great I Am, who is the Father of Jesus Christ. Some like Arian tried to describe Him, but most of his writings were destroyed or re-interpreted through the already accepted Trinity Doctrine.

I found some good interpretations from none other then a philosopher named Tillich, who was later accused of being an atheist by the entire (Catholic and Protestant) Trinity believing church.

Even though the New Age Movement spawned from (not because of) Tillich writings, I dont think that was his intention, but as with Luther, Calvin and many others who eventually went beyond what Jesus taught and said (as I have many times), the true message he was portraying to Believers was eventually snuffed out just as a candle would under a bushel.

Im sure many of you here have read and maybe even studied Tillich; I will only quote a few things that I feel shines a light on this great deception regarding our God of the Bible.

Tillich explained:

* God to be beyond Being-Itself, manifested in the structure of beings. God is not a supernatural entity among other entities. Instead, God is the ground upon which all beings exist. We cannot perceive God as an object which is related to a subject because God precedes the subject-object dichotomy

* if God is a Being (das Seiende), even if the highest Being, God cannot be properly called the source of all being,

* Arguments for and against the existence of God presuppose such an understanding of God. Tillich is critical of this mode of discourse which he refers to as "theological theism," and argues that if God is a Being (das Seiende), even if the highest Being, God cannot be properly called the source of all being, and the question can of course then be posed as to why God exists, who created God, when God's beginning is, and so on. To put the issue in traditional language: if God is a being (das Seiende), then God is a creature, even if the highest one, and thus cannot be the Creator. Rather, God must be understood as the "ground of Being-Itself."

Mistakes that:

* The God of the theological theism is a being besides others and as such a part of the whole reality. He is certainly considered its most important part, but as a part and therefore as subjected to the structure of the whole. He is supposed to be beyond the ontological elements and categories which constitute reality. But every statement subjects him to them. He is seen as a self which has a world, as an ego which relates to a thought, as a cause which is separated from its effect, as having a definite space and endless time. He is a being, not being-itself. (Tillich-Wikipedia)

Beyond this, in his quest for; the knowledge of the mystery of God Tillich IMO starts to wonder into the very realm that he described GOD is NOT part of; the supernatural. This is the mistake the Quakers/Shakers, the Amish, Jehowah Witnesses and many other denominations who did not accept the Trinity god strayed off to.
No matter what source we use, if it deviates from the letters and books contained in the Bible, it will eventually lead to revelations by supernatural sources from demons, which lead to please the itching ear that desires human wisdom. What follows is pride and inevitably, the fall back into darkness.

I will use as a source from Colossians, which warns us of this temptation;

Col 2:2-3
2 I do this in order that they may be filled with courage and may be drawn together in love, and so have the full wealth of assurance which true understanding brings. In this way they will know God's secret, which is Christ himself. 3 He is the key that opens all the hidden treasures of God's wisdom and knowledge. ..

I for one have seen how this is true; for I have searched it out and truly all the mysteries and hidden treasures of wisdom and knowledge of God are hidden in Gods Word, the Christ. He is the Key to all wisdom.

4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.
Here is that warning:

Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

So lets see the empty deceit according to the traditions of men:

Col 2:9 For in Him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. NKJV

Here is where the Trinity Doctrine uses deceit by altering the meaning of Godhead to Jesus when it is obvious that Jesus was a Messenger from God, in the bodily (physical) form, and not the 'head of God'.

The NIV replaces Godhead with Deity;
Col 2:9-10
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, NIV

Jesus has been given the authority by I Am to be; head of all principalities and powers which does not make Him 'head of' God. God has no need for anyone (not even Himself) to be made head of all principalities and powers, God IS all that.

God is Spirit, His Power is Spirit which is the life source of all the created things in Heaven and earth, and it is that life in all His creation that shows Gods Love, just as the sun (as powerful and terrifying as it may be) shows itself by those life-giving rays and warmth.

God is not some Deity with a gray beard, up in a man made heaven holding a lightning bolt in His hand, causing pain and suffering on the earth with earthquakes, tsunamis, tornadoes and such. Those are man made gods that hold man in terror that everyone may serve them, or else!

These ideas came from Satan by supernatural means, for that is exactly how he rules those that are nave enough to serve him. It is he Satan who demands that we serve him with all our hearts and minds that he may possess our souls. Our GOD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a God of love.

You want to see what kind of God He really is? He begot a SON, a perfect image of Himself and sent Him to earth so he may show us the great and wonderful secret of who I Am God is.

The Son came to serve and not to be served.
He came to suffer so He may take away our suffering.
He came to heal the sick, the blind and the maimed, and not to cause those things as those supernatural Deities are claimed to do.
He was kind and gentle and would not break a bruised reed. When he was slapped on one cheek, He turned the other, when He was beaten, He did not cry out in anger, and when He was crucified, He asked His Father to forgive us.
But as He was dying on the horrible cross, in anguish He cried out: Father forgive them, they know not what they do!

THIS is my God, not some three-in-one Deity who has deceived us mankind into hating our Creator.

Our God is not jealous of those stone and wood figurines made by man, but that we would acknowledge with our hearts, souls and minds that they are not the ones keeping us safe and alive on this tiny planet in the abyss of an endless, cold and dangerous universe. All we have to do is look at the other near-by planets and we can see that without that invisible protection God has given us and only us, we would be bombarded to kingdom-come by meteors, the rays of the sun, the freezing cold of space and thousands of other dangers that have left those millions of other planets in kayos, unable to support even the simplest of life forms that we have here on earth. All the life here on earth compared to the desolation on the nearby planets should be another indication of Gods protection and love for us.

Our God is NOT Devine and will never find Him through divinations.

Divinations:
seeking knowledge by supernatural means: the methods or practice of attempting to foretell the future or discovering the unknown through omens, oracles, or supernatural powers - (Encarta)

But By Gods Perfect Image; Jesus the Word of God.

Because of what I just learned, I am happy to tell you; I am an atheist, my God is not Devine who lives in some supernatural realm. I know whom I serve, and also know that the only way that I can do that is through Christ and as He reveals Gods Word to me through the Bible.

Hope that helps to clear things up.

Odon

[EduChris]

...If you were curious about the existance of a god...and you had no knowledge of god and neither did anyone else, where would you look?...

God--the belief that Ultimate Reality involves purpose--is an archetype of the normally functioning human psyche. Thus, for each of us, the place to start looking for God is in our own minds.

...would you look in a book? would you look amongst man? amongst the universe? where (please please for the love of all that is holy *snicker* be VERY VERY specific.)...

If I were to start looking for God or inquiring about God, I would start with my own thoughts and then I would look around for good and wise people who have also thought about God. I would talk with them, compare notes, and see if I could start building an epistemological raft from the bits of flotsam and jetsam I encountered on my search.

[Clownboat]

...If you were curious about the existance of a god...and you had no knowledge of god and neither did anyone else, where would you look?...

God--the belief that Ultimate Reality involves purpose--is an archetype of the normally functioning human psyche. Thus, for each of us, the place to start looking for God is in our own minds.

...would you look in a book? would you look amongst man? amongst the universe? where (please please for the love of all that is holy *snicker* be VERY VERY specific.)...

If I were to start looking for God or inquiring about God, I would start with my own thoughts and then I would look around for good and wise people who have also thought about God. I would talk with them, compare notes, and see if I could start building an epistemological raft from the bits of flotsam and jetsam I encountered on my search.

At least for me, you just described how (probably) all religions were invented and I agree that god concepts seem to stem from the mind of man.

[EduChris]

...you just described how...all religions were invented...

Actually, I just described how all human knowledge is acquired. Or do you know of some other way that human knowledge is acquired?

[McCulloch]

If you were curious about the existance of a god...and you had no knowledge of god and neither did anyone else, where would you look?

God--the belief that Ultimate Reality involves purpose--is an archetype of the normally functioning human psyche. Thus, for each of us, the place to start looking for God is in our own minds.

Did you mean to say that God is the belief that Ultimate Reality involves purpose? Or is it that theism is the belief that God, the Ultimate Reality, involves purpose?

If I were to start looking for God or inquiring about God, I would start with my own thoughts and then I would look around for good and wise people who have also thought about God. I would talk with them, compare notes, and see if I could start building an epistemological raft from the bits of flotsam and jetsam I encountered on my search.

At least for me, you just described how (probably) all religions were invented and I agree that god concepts seem to stem from the mind of man.

Actually, I just described how all human knowledge is acquired. Or do you know of some other way that human knowledge is acquired?

I have to agree with EduChris on this one. All human knowledge starts in someone's mind. And since the sum total of human knowledge is too vast for any one person to even know, let alone discover first hand, we all get at least a good portion of our knowledge from good and wise people who have studied what it is that is the object of our inquiries. Our differences come with who might qualify as good and wise. A self-confessed religious persecutor who sees a vision of a victim of capital punishment and believes that he has traveled to the seventh heaven, does not make it for me.

But it shouldn't end there. We should have some confidence that what passes for knowledge can in principle be derived from first principles.

[100%atheist]

God--the belief that Ultimate Reality involves purpose--is an archetype of the normally functioning human psyche. Thus, for each of us, the place to start looking for God is in our own minds.

I think you repeat this term (Ultimate Reality) for quite some time. I don't know if there is any "ultimate" reality in addition to reality. Is my brain functioning incorrectly?

[Goat]

God--the belief that Ultimate Reality involves purpose--is an archetype of the normally functioning human psyche. Thus, for each of us, the place to start looking for God is in our own minds.

I think you repeat this term (Ultimate Reality) for quite some time. I don't know if there is any "ultimate" reality in addition to reality. Is my brain functioning incorrectly?

IMO, the difference between "Ultimate reality" and 'Reality" is that it sounds impressive

[McCulloch]

IMO, the difference between "Ultimate reality" and 'Reality" is that it sounds impressive

It could be like the difference between truth and religious truth.

Reality is accessible to those of us living in it (except for my brother-in-law), but Ultimate Reality is the inaccessible necessarily antecedent of reality.

[Artie]

God--the belief that Ultimate Reality involves purpose--is an archetype of the normally functioning human psyche. Thus, for each of us, the place to start looking for God is in our own minds.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 41022.html
http://clinicallypsyched.com/neurotheol ... godinmind/

[joncash]

If science is allowed free reign over logic, post hoc fallacy riddled pseudoscience like the above links are what we'll have.