The Demands of Occupy Wall Street

[WinePusher]

People at occupy wall street have released unofficial lists of demands here and there. There are apparently many out there and they don't seem to correspond to eachtother, but here's one unofficial list of demands:

-Demand 1: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending Freetrade by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.
-Demand 2: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.
-Demand 3: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.
-Demand 4: Free college education.
-Demand 5: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.
-Demand 6: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.
-Demand 7: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of Americas nuclear power plants.
-Demand 8: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.
-Demand 9: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.
-Demand 10: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.
-Demand 11: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the Books. World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the Books. And I dont mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.
-Demand 12: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.
-Demand 13: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

http://toddkinsey.com/blog/2011/10/08/o ... f-demands/

1) What do you make of these demands? Are they reasonable or unreasonable?
2) In a list of demands seperate from this list, OWS protestors have expressed disapproval towards the ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commision. Do you agree or disagree with the ruling?
3) Although absent from the list of demands, OWS have expressed disdainment towards what they percieve to be a growing gap between the top 1% of society and the remaining 99% of society. What is the truth regarding wealth and income inequality?

[nursebenjamin]

#2 - People would not be happy with a single payer healthcare system. That means a family of six would not be able to provide for their children. They would all have to pay individually. That is stupid.

I think that you don't understand what is meant by single-payer health care. Also, what percent of families right now are able to afford health insurance?

[JohnPaul]

#2 - People would not be happy with a single payer healthcare system. That means a family of six would not be able to provide for their children. They would all have to pay individually. That is stupid.

I think that you don't understand what is meant by single-payer health care. Also, what percent of families right now are able to afford health insurance?

It is not surprising that private insurance companies did not hysterically oppose Obama's health care plan, as they did Clinton's earlier plan. Obama's plan would not only force people to buy health care from private companies at any exhorbitant rates the companies chose to charge, but would in effect administer all American health care through private companies, making the companies rich beyond their wildest dreams! The government would be acting as a marketing agent for them, forcing captive customers on them. Some private insurance companies raised their rates immediately after the announcement of Obama's plan in anticipation of the coming government-sponsored goldmine and avalanche of taxpayer-funded customers for them.

John

[SomePunk]

#2 - People would not be happy with a single payer healthcare system. That means a family of six would not be able to provide for their children. They would all have to pay individually. That is stupid.

I think that you don't understand what is meant by single-payer health care. Also, what percent of families right now are able to afford health insurance?

You are right single payer means something totally different.
It is where everyone pays for everyone else healthcare.
It would just be something people get taxed more for.

[SomePunk]

#1 - I think stuff should not be imported into the country, as in stuff shouldnt be made dirt cheap in other countries and have Americans pay top dollar for it. It eliminates jobs here then they expect Americans to buy these products that are not worth what they cost to make.

American capitalism is based upon free trade. I graduate high school in Germany right after the wall came down. We saw first hand the results of isolationist policies on a country, as the people of East Germany started crossing over - it was like they and their possessions were stuck in the 50's.

If we can't sell our products competitively on the open market, maybe we need to look at our trade and labor policies instead of just shutting the doors all together.

Besides - look at the stuff that surrounds you computer. Try to find one thing that was made in the US... if the stuff was of such low quality, why are we surrounded by it?

I am not saying close the door to all trades. I am just saying sell products for what they are worth. It probably depends on the product too, because some people will pay for the "brand" even if its not worth the money.

[chris_brown207]

I am not saying close the door to all trades. I am just saying sell products for what they are worth. It probably depends on the product too, because some people will pay for the "brand" even if its not worth the money.

It is an assumption that this hasn't already happened. After all, who would want to sell their products for less then what they are worth. However, the market decides what a product is truly worth - not the seller.

There is a reason Wal-Mart is the number one retailer in our nation - because time and time again, consumers have shown that they value price over place of manufacture.

I see the same thing out here in Boise, Idaho. In a city where unemployment sits above 10%, I have met people in the agricultural industry who couldn't get US citizens to apply for their jobs if they begged and pleaded. The great great majority of people that apply for farm jobs are immigrants - even as far north as Idaho. The reason why - farmer can't pay enough to attract citizens for the labor (and in many instances, the immigrants work harder - this coming from the farmers). Why can't farmers pay enough? Because they can't sell their products for more then market value.

For another example, look at Alabama, who just passed some very stringent immigration laws. There are agricultural and dairy facilities who lost 50-60 laborers overnight. And since only citizens can apply for the jobs - they have had only a handful apply to fill those positions....

As I said, if we cannot sell our products on the open market, maybe we need to re-look at our trade and labor policies that make our cost of labor so out of whack on a global scale.

[East of Eden]

I see the same thing out here in Boise, Idaho. In a city where unemployment sits above 10%, I have met people in the agricultural industry who couldn't get US citizens to apply for their jobs if they begged and pleaded. The great great majority of people that apply for farm jobs are immigrants - even as far north as Idaho. The reason why - farmer can't pay enough to attract citizens for the labor (and in many instances, the immigrants work harder - this coming from the farmers). Why can't farmers pay enough? Because they can't sell their products for more then market value.

Hard to get people to work when they can make as much on unemployment.

For another example, look at Alabama, who just passed some very stringent immigration laws. There are agricultural and dairy facilities who lost 50-60 laborers overnight. And since only citizens can apply for the jobs - they have had only a handful apply to fill those positions....

I am in favor of the AL law, but they need to provide for guest workers.

As I said, if we cannot sell our products on the open market, maybe we need to re-look at our trade and labor policies that make our cost of labor so out of whack on a global scale.

Maybe we need to cut back on union compensation to be more competitive.

[chris_brown207]

Hard to get people to work when they can make as much on unemployment.

I would agree with you to an extent, except this is a different topic all together. Jobs are still difficult to come by, and the lines forming for good paying jobs can be long indeed. Unemployment wages being comparable to farm labor is only a partial explanation of the situation in that for most people unemployment benefits are limited in nature. However, the situation with farmers only being able to hire immigrants has been true for decades. It has only become obvious to the average American due to recent anti-immigrant legislation that has brought some issues to light.

I am in favor of the AL law, but they need to provide for guest workers.

I would agree that they needed to provide for guest workers - but they probably should of had a solution for the illegal ones as well (seeing as how they were just as needed). I think the law is an excellent example of a knee jerk reaction with not a lot of forethought about the consequences. This is a classic case of what happens when we demonize a whole population.

Maybe we need to cut back on union compensation to be more competitive.

The overall problem is inflation in American Wages. Legislation, inflation of the dollar, the national deficit, possibly an overall inflation of our own self worth - and yes, from union involvement in setting labor wages as well - are all contributing factors to the fact that we have a monstrous trade deficit and have trouble competing in a lot of product markets.

[JohnPaul]

Hard to get people to work when they can make as much on unemployment.

I would agree with you to an extent, except this is a different topic all together. Jobs are still difficult to come by, and the lines forming for good paying jobs can be long indeed. Unemployment wages being comparable to farm labor is only a partial explanation of the situation in that for most people unemployment benefits are limited in nature. However, the situation with farmers only being able to hire immigrants has been true for decades. It has only become obvious to the average American due to recent anti-immigrant legislation that has brought some issues to light.

I am in favor of the AL law, but they need to provide for guest workers.

I would agree that they needed to provide for guest workers - but they probably should of had a solution for the illegal ones as well (seeing as how they were just as needed). I think the law is an excellent example of a knee jerk reaction with not a lot of forethought about the consequences. This is a classic case of what happens when we demonize a whole population.

Maybe we need to cut back on union compensation to be more competitive.

The overall problem is inflation in American Wages. Legislation, inflation of the dollar, the national deficit, possibly an overall inflation of our own self worth - and yes, from union involvement in setting labor wages as well - are all contributing factors to the fact that we have a monstrous trade deficit and have trouble competing in a lot of product markets.

Just a comment. Germany tried the "guest worker" solution more than 50 years ago and the "guests" are still there, many of them refusing to integrate or send their children to German schools. While drawing German welfare, they reproduce much faster than the ethnic Germans and claim German citizenship for their children. They maintain alien and offensive religious customs in public, such as forcing their women to wear veils, while their young display increasingly belligerent and offensive behavior on the streets. This situation is causing increasing unrest among the German population and, naturally, an increase in Neo-Nazi violence, while the liberal politicians wring their hands and do nothing.

If you accept "guest workers," make sure they know when to go home.

John

[chris_brown207]

Just a comment. Germany tried the "guest worker" solution more than 50 years ago and the "guests" are still there, many of them refusing to integrate or send their children to German schools. While drawing German welfare, they reproduce much faster than the ethnic Germans and claim German citizenship for their children. They maintain alien and offensive religious customs in public, such as forcing their women to wear veils, while their young display increasingly belligerent and offensive behavior on the streets. This situation is causing increasing unrest among the German population and, naturally, an increase in Neo-Nazi violence, while the liberal politicians wring their hands and do nothing.

If you accept "guest workers," make sure they know when to go home.

John

Very good point - although, I lived in Germany for two years, but I do not remember seeing any of the people whom you speak about.

The "guest workers" we have in this country are here because there is a demand for their services. They would not be here if we didn't want them here - and I speak about all of us. Their presence is a factor of our requirement for inexpensive produce, while not having to personally deal with the difficult labor for cheap wages that it entails. Farmers have to deal with this predicament, and the knowledge that if they had to increase prices to compensate for increased wages - they would be making the market even more ripe for more foreign produce to invade our country.

Illegal immigrants are not the problem, they are just a symptom of it. Trying to evict them is like trying to stop the sneezes without dealing with the cold.

[JohnPaul]

Just a comment. Germany tried the "guest worker" solution more than 50 years ago and the "guests" are still there, many of them refusing to integrate or send their children to German schools. While drawing German welfare, they reproduce much faster than the ethnic Germans and claim German citizenship for their children. They maintain alien and offensive religious customs in public, such as forcing their women to wear veils, while their young display increasingly belligerent and offensive behavior on the streets. This situation is causing increasing unrest among the German population and, naturally, an increase in Neo-Nazi violence, while the liberal politicians wring their hands and do nothing.

If you accept "guest workers," make sure they know when to go home.

John

Very good point - although, I lived in Germany for two years, but I do not remember seeing any of the people whom you speak about.

The "guest workers" we have in this country are here because there is a demand for their services. They would not be here if we didn't want them here - and I speak about all of us. Their presence is a factor of our requirement for inexpensive produce, while not having to personally deal with the difficult labor for cheap wages that it entails. Farmers have to deal with this predicament, and the knowledge that if they had to increase prices to compensate for increased wages - they would be making the market even more ripe for more foreign produce to invade our country.

Illegal immigrants are not the problem, they are just a symptom of it. Trying to evict them is like trying to stop the sneezes without dealing with the cold.

Maybe I am overstating the immigrant problem in Germany, but it does seem to have become quite serious in the last couple of years. Immigrants into Germany began with mostly Turks brought in as "guest workers" but now includes other Moslem groups and East Europeans. They are not farm workers, as in the US, but are city dwellers. Germany now desperately needs skilled workers, but most of the immigrants are not skilled and their children do poorly in German schools, if they attend at all.

I often participate in a German/English language forum on the internet, which also provides access to German newspapers, one in English. Stories about immigrant problems frequently appear. Recently a number of stories about a Neo-Nazi group accused of killing a number of immigrants over the past few years have appeared. Apparently the group somehow escaped arrest for 10 years, and it now appears they had extensive help, not only from civilians, but also from the German police and intelligence services. There are strong connections even to the Bundestag, the German parliament. Even more disturbing are some of the comments printed with the stories, which indicate that the immigrant problem is much worse than reported.

German economy is good now, but the unsustainable German welfare state and the parasite nations in the EU such as Greece demanding "bailouts" from Germany are causing serious problems which could even cause a recession not only in Europe but in the US as well. When the recession hits, Germany is ready for another charismatic leader like Hitler, who will now find many Germans fed up enough to support him. Nationalism and resentment are boiling beneath the liberal surface.

Edit - Incidentally, one liberal volunteer German instructor on the internet forum vehemently denies that there is any immigrant problem at all in Germany.

John