Is there a 'default' stance on theism?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Locked

Should the presumption of a 'default' stance on theism be abandoned?

Yes, such a stance shows ignorance of modern theistic philosophy
3
50%
No, we should presume a non-volitional nature to reality until proven otherwise
3
50%
 
Total votes: 6

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4326
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 112 times
Been thanked: 195 times

Is there a 'default' stance on theism?

Post #1

Post by Mithrae »

On consultation with the moderation team, I've learned that a recent thread intended to open up debate about certain views contained "pejerotive rhetoric" about those views in the title - unlike Why do Christians hate women? or Non-believers to BURN IN HELL!

As I read it I thought the thread had a lot of potential and was proceeding quite civilly, so I was a little disappointed when I reached the end. But since an offer has been made to 'consider' allowing an alternative thread to proceed with a new title and OP, I've taken the liberty of making a few small changes which I hope EduChris does not mind.


  • EduChris wrote:
    Many non-theists have adopted the notion that their view represents the so-called "default position" and therefore they need not engage in actual arguments themselves. So, all they ever do is sit back and say, "prove it" (regardless of what actual arguments anyone offers). These non-theists themselves provide no evidence, few arguments, and they do no mental "heavy lifting."

    Now it is true that the "non-theist" position would constitute the "default position" with respect to "accidental gods"--the supposed "gods" of obsolete theisms--which were presented as logically contingent and therefore never understood as the logically necessary Source and Ground of all the contingent existence we find in our universe.

    However, today's major world theisms do not posit the "accidental gods," the logically contingent gods of obsolete Greek and Norse and other mythologies. Instead, all of today's major world theisms posit the logically necessary Ultimate Reality which is thought to be Volitional on the basis of solid epistemological reasoning.

    Question for debate: should this notion of a 'default' stance on the ultimate nature of reality be abandoned? Why should anyone be allowed to engage in the equivocal practice of claiming the "default position" on the issue of "accidental gods" when in fact the real argument has nothing whatsoever to do with these logically contingent "gods" of obsolete superstition?

    Isn't it time for these non-theists to develop some new arguments against the actual theologies of today's major world theisms, rather than simply rest on the laurels of arguments which succeed only against "gods" that few (if any) people take seriously any more?
Last edited by Mithrae on Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
EduChris
Prodigy
Posts: 4615
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:34 pm
Location: U.S.A.
Contact:

Post #61

Post by EduChris »

Artie wrote:...OK. I know you hate this but now can you please answer me what makes this argument different from the argument that "thunder and lightning must be caused by something, therefore Thor exists"? I really would like the answer otherwise we'll never get further and I won't be able to understand what you mean. If the creation of the universe requires volition doesn't the creation of thunder and lightning require volition too?
The "gods" of ancient mythology are not presented as "logically necessary" beings. In primitive theologies, such "gods" are nothing more than super-powerful human-like beings--with all our flaws and foibles. Such "gods" live and die and yet the world continues in spite of their machinations; these entities are situated within the world, like all other contingent beings, as opposed to providing the very context within which all contingent existance becomes possible.

The "context" for all contingent existence cannot be doubted; it is logically necessary. But any specific "thing" within the universe can be doubted--as to its existence in the first place, and then (secondarily) as to its claim to divinity.

To doubt Ultimate Reality in the same way that one doubts the existence of, say, Leprechauns or Norse gods, is to confuse the logically contingent with the logically necessary.

User avatar
EduChris
Prodigy
Posts: 4615
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:34 pm
Location: U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Is there a 'default' stance on theism?

Post #62

Post by EduChris »

Clownboat wrote:...Were you born a Christian/Muslim or born an atheist?...
Given that I was born as a human being with the propensity to discern purpose and pattern, and to pursue logic and truth, I would say that I was born a "prospective" or "aspiring" theist.

Artie
Prodigy
Posts: 3306
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:26 pm

Post #63

Post by Artie »

EduChris wrote: The "gods" of ancient mythology are not presented as "logically necessary" beings.
Yes they were. It was logical to the Vikings that a god created thunder and lightning. That is why he was created. Yahweh was an ordinary warrior god among many other gods. Then he was promoted to Creator of the Universe and the rest became obsolete. Perhaps they made him a creator god because they saw it "logically necessary"?
In primitive theologies, such "gods" are nothing more than super-powerful human-like beings--with all our flaws and foibles. Such "gods" live and die and yet the world continues in spite of their machinations; these entities are situated within the world, like all other contingent beings, as opposed to providing the very context within which all contingent existance becomes possible.
Then most likely none of our home made gods are real and something or someone else is running the show.
To doubt Ultimate Reality in the same way that one doubts the existence of, say, Leprechauns or Norse gods, is to confuse the logically contingent with the logically necessary.
Describe this Ultimate Reality and explain how it impacts our lives.

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 10260
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 1452 times
Been thanked: 1757 times

Re: Is there a 'default' stance on theism?

Post #64

Post by Clownboat »

EduChris wrote:
Clownboat wrote:...Were you born a Christian/Muslim or born an atheist?...
Given that I was born as a human being with the propensity to discern purpose and pattern, and to pursue logic and truth, I would say that I was born "a prospective theist."
I am still a human being that has a propensity to discern purpose and pattern, and to pursue logic and truth.

That does not make me a prospective theist though. Knowing this, I will assume you were born not knowing or believing in any gods. I do not believe that you were born wondering if a god exists.

I was born an atheist (I was not aware of a god concept until my parents introduced one), indoctrinated to be a Christian, then later in life examined my beliefs and found them wanting.

My default possition from the beginning of my existence was that I did not know if any gods existed.

Maybe it is more fair to say that weak atheism is the default. Going to a strong atheist or a member of any religion would be straying from the default. This is my opinion, and I don't even consider myself an atheist.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

User avatar
EduChris
Prodigy
Posts: 4615
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:34 pm
Location: U.S.A.
Contact:

Post #65

Post by EduChris »

Artie wrote:...Yahweh was an ordinary warrior god among many other gods. Then he was promoted...
The genius of the Jewish monotheistic tradition lies in its recognition that contingent entities, no matter how powerful, could not logically be the God within which we all live and move and have our being.

Artie wrote:...Describe this Ultimate Reality and explain how it impacts our lives.
That would be a matter of particulars, and this thread is devoted to the general epistemological foundation for the debate. Once you either 1) grant that Volitional Ultimate Reality is an epistemologically valid basis for further discussion, or 2) demonstrate why volition should be eliminated from the mix of causal possibilities, then you will be ready to begin intelligently debating the particulars of the various contemporary world theisms.
Last edited by EduChris on Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
EduChris
Prodigy
Posts: 4615
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:34 pm
Location: U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Is there a 'default' stance on theism?

Post #66

Post by EduChris »

Clownboat wrote:...I am still a human being that has a propensity to discern purpose and pattern, and to pursue logic and truth...
I'm not sure that the worldview(s) available to a non-theist provide the necessary support for supposing that human beings actually have such capacities. Rather than clutter this thread with such matters, however, I suggest you consult with Jester in his "worldview" thread.

User avatar
ThatGirlAgain
Prodigy
Posts: 2961
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:09 pm
Location: New York City
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #67

Post by ThatGirlAgain »

EduChris wrote:
AkiThePirate wrote:...The idea that there is...a necessary entity upon which existence is contingent is making as many assumptions about the nature of the universe as almost any other theories as to the origins of the universe...
If "nothing" is defined as the state in which no existence is ever possible, in which no existence has ever been or ever will be, then it must be the case that this "nothing" cannot represent the rock-bottom, brute "fact" on which all contingent things depend. And since this "nothing" is not the ultimate brute fact, then it logically follows that "something-which-is-not-nothing" must necessarily constitute the ultimate brute fact. This "something-which-is-not-nothing" is thus shown to be logically necessary--and I refer to this as "Ultimate Reality" in order to distinguish it from the logically contingent things which (as far as we can tell) comprise the "mundane reality" of our universe. I don't see how this logic is even controversial. If you disagree, please present your argument.

Beyond that, my claim is that this Ultimate Reality is a black box--that is, we cannot empirically know anything about it; it is not an object of empirical study. All we can do is subject the black box of Ultimate Reality to logical analysis in an attempt to rule out various possibilities.

The major world theisms all contend that God is this "black box" of Ultimate Reality. The fact of Ultimate Reality cannot be logically denied; the essential point which distinguishes the God (capital "G") of today's major world theisms from the "god" (small "g") of scientism is "volition." Theism contends that Ultimate Reality involves some element of volition; non-theism contends that Ultimate Reality involves only some admixture of chance & necessity.

From the standpoint of epistemology, theism is the preferred option because it does not arbitrarily exclude anything from the mix of the only three causal agents we know: chance, necessity, and volition. In other words, if you are a non-theist, you have made an assumption--that UR involves no volition at all--and this assumption requires some justification. Non-theism thus cannot be a "default" position.
Defining nothing as the state in which no existence is ever possible appears to be building in the conclusion at the beginning. Nonetheless I agree that nothing is a most unsatisfying foundation on which to build something. Some principle needs to be in place to explain why things do in fact exist. But is the idea of a volitional creator God a satisfactory answer?

Let us first address a puzzling feature of this world: its specificity. Why should the world be exactly the way it is? The laws and other characteristics of the world could surely have been different. Theism explains this as a volitional act of creation by God. But is God truly capable of creating only one specific world? How would that world be chosen from all other alternatives? When we make a choice it is always based on something prior " reasoning, emotion, psychological factors, coercion, or whatever factors might influence a coin flip. What pre-existing factors influenced Gods decision? If something existed prior to God, then God is not the ultimate ground of existence after all. But if specific influences existed before God, we must explain why those specific influences?

One solution is to say that God created all possible worlds, incorporating every possible set of laws and contents. After all, God could have created different kinds of world, or else God is not omnipotent. (Note: We are ignoring logical contradictions. They do not count.)
But if God is not omnipotent, then God possesses some power but not all power. The question then arises: Why those powers as opposed to any others? What pres-existing factors constrained God. And why those factors? Also, to be able to create some worlds but not to do so would imply unfulfilled potential, making God less than perfect.

If there is a God who created this world, then that God necessarily created all possible worlds. The idea of volition would seem to be inapplicable here. God had no choice.

We may then ask: Why is there a God? We can prove the existence of God from the existence of the world. God (or something) is necessary in the sense that an explanation for the existence of the world is needed. But is God inherently a necessary being independent of the existence of the world? Is existence of something inherently necessary?

If existence is indeed primal and if the idea of a volitional creator is problematic, as we have seen above, then why posit a creator God? Possibly the reason for the existence of things lies in logic itself. Logically possible things may exist simply because they can. That which can be, is. Why? Because it can, and therefore it does. The age old question of :Why is there something rather than nothing? may actually be :Why is there some specific thing instead of everything else that could be? The answer may simply be that everything is; that every possible universe exists because logic allows it.

Whole universes are needed for context. The proverbial universe consisting of nothing but an infinite number of talking donkeys has no meaning because there is no context for donkey or talking. These things are meaningful in our universe because they reside in the context of a universe that supports their possibility. And a whole lot of support is needed. As Carl Sagan once put it, if you want to make a birthday cake from scratch you have to first make the universe.

Logically incompatible alternatives are separated into different universes. There may be a universe where the Chicago Cubs won the World Series. :shock: There may be an infinite number of such universes each one embodying all the possible contexts that would allow such a statement to be true, including the starting pitcher having tentacles.

This alternative scenario avoids the problem of prior constraints. All possibilities are actualized so no choices are involved. It also avoids the question of where God came from. A separate God is not needed. Existence itself is natural.

The default position of there being an Ultimate Reality does not necessarily lead to theism. In my alternative to theism, the ground of existence is simply logic. Its embodiment is all possible versions of physical reality. We may already be experiencing Ultimate Reality every moment of every day, or at least our particular share of it.
Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 10260
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 1452 times
Been thanked: 1757 times

Re: Is there a 'default' stance on theism?

Post #68

Post by Clownboat »

EduChris wrote:
Clownboat wrote:...I am still a human being that has a propensity to discern purpose and pattern, and to pursue logic and truth...
I'm not sure that the worldview(s) available to a non-theist provide the necessary support for supposing that human beings actually have such capacities. Rather than clutter this thread with such matters, however, I suggest you consult with Jester in his "worldview" thread.
I asked if you were born a Christian/Muslim or atheist.

You responded with being born with the propensity to discern purpose and pattern and thus were born with the prospect of being a theist.

I only ment to show that I still have those qualities that you listed, and they do not make me a theist. That tells me that you were not born with the prospect of being a theist.

I am arguing that you were born not believing in any gods, which to me seems like the default possition. From there people need to make a choice, strong atheism, or pick a religion.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

User avatar
AquinasD
Guru
Posts: 1802
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 1:20 am
Contact:

Post #69

Post by AquinasD »

As I stated in the previous thread, I find the idea that there is a default stance on theism to be very dubious. I have the feeling that I am coming from a similar view as EduChris, but without being as prone to using the word ultimate or capitalizing my letters quite so often.

It is usually claimed that atheism is the default since it is just an abstaining of positive volition. It would be like making up a special signification for non-stamp collectors. Stamp collecting isn't normative, ergo, non-stamp collecting shouldn't be recognized as something especially removed, since it doesn't stray from a normative belief in the first place.

This is, at least, how I assume the reasoning must be going, since it isn't usually explained well.

Anyway, I think there is a problem with this sort of argument, which EduChris has rightly called attention to. The question of theism is not, in the modern day, about whether or not a person believes in gods like Zeus or Thor, and a person's thinking that it is anything like this is seriously, conceptually confused. There is an essential difference between the merely powerful but contingent entities known as the gods and the God. The difference is namely that the gods are accidental, while God is purely essential in His composition. That is, whatever God is, He necessarily is, and it is held to be the case that God couldn't possibly not exist. A god, on the other hand, could fail to exist, and is composed of accidental qualities.

Let us think about the actual question of theism (viz. "Do you believe in God?" and not "Do you believe in gods?") this way; do you believe that numbers exist?

I think we can note that the difference between an opinion of whether one believes in the existence of numbers or whether one collects stamps is rather removed. Generally, it is taken to be the case that the existence of numbers would be essential; if they exist, then they necessarily exist. Otherwise, numbers would just be a concept or something else completely. One's belief about the existence of numbers or the non-existence of numbers is akin to one's belief in the existence of God; since the concept refers to a definite, necessary metaphysical reality, it's hard to see that one should have a default towards either "Yes, numbers exist" or "No, numbers don't exist."

It'd be odd for a conceptualist about numbers to say to a realist "I don't have to prove that numbers don't exist, it's your burden to prove that they do!"

So, no, I don't think there is a default stance on theism. It is metaphysically confused to insist that there is, since it treats the existence of God in an accidental fashion.

User avatar
EduChris
Prodigy
Posts: 4615
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:34 pm
Location: U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Is there a 'default' stance on theism?

Post #70

Post by EduChris »

Clownboat wrote:...you were not born with the prospect of being a theist...
I don't remember which beliefs I was born with. But once the developmental capacity for abstract thought has been reached (age 12 or so) questions about God become increasingly persistent, and with greater study and pursuit comes greater clarity regarding the options.

Locked