Why are YOU not a catholic?

[Pat2]

There are a GREAT many Christian sects/ communions/ churches.

BUT Only one is founded by Christ Himself. The Catholic Church.

So my friend, why are you NOT a Catholic?

God Bless,

Pat

[Shermana]

Okay, so like I asked, what does "nature" mean exactly?

[Goat]

[Here's a verse I use in explicitly showing the TRINITY

Mt. 3:13-17 “Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness." Then he consented. And when Jesus [Son of God] was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, [Holy Spirit of God] and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." [God The Father] =TRINITY

God Bless,
Pat

There is an presumption of 'trinity' when claiming this passage means 'trinity'.

That assumption is the 'The son of God' is a god himself.

The term 'son of god' in the colloquialism of the Jewish people at the time mean 'A righteous man' who as been chosen by God. Another example of this can be shown in Pslam 2.7, when King David became exalted when he became King. Thus, King David became a 'son of God'.

Thus, if you read that in context of the Jewish understanding of the time period of what the term 'Son of God' meant, it does not show the Trinity at all. The father is not the son.

[JehovahsWitness]

There are a GREAT many Christian sects/ communions/ churches.

BUT Only one is founded by Christ Himself. The Catholic Church.

So my friend, why are you NOT a Catholic?

God Bless,

Pat

This sounds like a request to share ones personal views so....

Although I have great respect for individuals who are Catholic, I am not a Catholic personally because I believe that even if Jesus did found the Catholic Church (which I don't believe for a minute) that he would have subsequently rejected it because it has a such a despicable history or bloodguilt, corruption, oppression, abject materialism, distortion of biblical truths, persecution of honest individuls and political compromise (see Luke 13: 35).

I cannot personally think of any organization that has such a vile history, so many corrupt leaders and such institutionalised greed, dishonesty and disregard for the spiritual welfare of its members.

Those are my personal reasons why I am not a Catholic (Rev 18:4).

Great question,
JW

[Flail]

[Here's a verse I use in explicitly showing the TRINITY

Mt. 3:13-17 “Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness." Then he consented. And when Jesus [Son of God] was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, [Holy Spirit of God] and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." [God The Father] =TRINITY

God Bless,
Pat

There is an presumption of 'trinity' when claiming this passage means 'trinity'.

That assumption is the 'The son of God' is a god himself.

The term 'son of god' in the colloquialism of the Jewish people at the time mean 'A righteous man' who as been chosen by God. Another example of this can be shown in Pslam 2.7, when King David became exalted when he became King. Thus, King David became a 'son of God'.

Thus, if you read that in context of the Jewish understanding of the time period of what the term 'Son of God' meant, it does not show the Trinity at all. The father is not the son.

Precisely. And I think the Trinity was simply a concoction of the Church rendered for the purpose of justifying the necessity of a 'Christ belief' precedent to salvation. Otherwise the Commandment "thou shall take no other Gods before me" would necessarily be violated by fundamental Christian Doctrine which required 'coming to BibleGod thru JesusGod only. So Jesus had do morph into a single head of a three headed God rather than remain a single entity. Getting to the Trinity was quite a convoluted and inauthentic process IMO.

[Jester]

Moderator Clarification

Check the rules, Pat. This is not a site for preaching, it's for reasoned debate and argument. You might start by explaining who this Christ fellow is and why we should care.

It is not considered preaching to ask a question (even a leading question) in starting a thread.
In fact, the moderators request that opening posts merely frame the debate by asking a clear question, keeping arguments for later posts.


This doesn't seem to be an apologetics question, however.
As such, it has been moved to the T,D,&D subforum.
______________
Moderator clarifications do not count as a strike against any posters. They serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received and/or are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels a clarification of the rules is required.

[AdHoc]

There are a GREAT many Christian sects/ communions/ churches.

BUT Only one is founded by Christ Himself. The Catholic Church.

So my friend, why are you NOT a Catholic?

God Bless,

Pat

Interesting question... I have never considered becoming a Catholic. I will admit I don't even know what the word "Catholic" means (although I will likely google it today).

Why do you believe Christ founded the Catholic church?

[showme]

There are a GREAT many Christian sects/ communions/ churches.

BUT Only one is founded by Christ Himself. The Catholic Church.

So my friend, why are you NOT a Catholic?

God Bless,

Pat

Being raised in a Catholic family, I can see where you got derailed. You think that Yeshua named Peter the rock the church was to be built on, and that the Pope is Peter's heir. You would be wrong on several fronts. The "rock" the church is built on is not Peter, but the fact that the Spirit of Revelation revealed to Simon bar Jonas that Yeshua was "Christ, the son of the Living God". The "rock" the church is built on is the "Spirit of Revelation", and not on Peter, or that Yeshua is the Christ. As is shown in Rev 19:10, "the testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy". The "rock" is the Word of God, which includes the testimony of Yeshua. Yeshua is the "Word" made flesh, and it is Yeshua's testimony which you must eat without the hypocracy of the Pharisees, the chief Pharisee in question being Paul.

I will admit that the protestant church is the daughter of the Catholic church, and like mother like daughter, but the Roman church seems to more flagrantly out of step with the teachings of Yeshua. The best I can say is to follow what Yeshua says in Rev 18:4, that you should come out of her so that you do not have to participate in her plagues.

[ThatGirlAgain]

There are a GREAT many Christian sects/ communions/ churches.

BUT Only one is founded by Christ Himself. The Catholic Church.

So my friend, why are you NOT a Catholic?

God Bless,

Pat

Being raised in a Catholic family, I can see where you got derailed. You think that Yeshua named Peter the rock the church was to be built on, and that the Pope is Peter's heir. You would be wrong on several fronts. The "rock" the church is built on is not Peter, but the fact that the Spirit of Revelation revealed to Simon bar Jonas that Yeshua was "Christ, the son of the Living God". The "rock" the church is built on is the "Spirit of Revelation", and not on Peter, or that Yeshua is the Christ. As is shown in Rev 19:10, "the testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy". The "rock" is the Word of God, which includes the testimony of Yeshua. Yeshua is the "Word" made flesh, and it is Yeshua's testimony which you must eat without the hypocracy of the Pharisees, the chief Pharisee in question being Paul.

I will admit that the protestant church is the daughter of the Catholic church, and like mother like daughter, but the Roman church seems to more flagrantly out of step with the teachings of Yeshua. The best I can say is to follow what Yeshua says in Rev 18:4, that you should come out of her so that you do not have to participate in her plagues.

Can you give scriptural references for your claim that Peter is not the rock and was not given authority? The Catholic viewpoint is that the following is, ahem, a rock solid case for Peter being the rock in question and that Jesus gave him authority to create a church.

Matthew16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.�
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.�

a Matthew 16:18 The Greek word for Peter means rock.

I have heard claims that after Jesus says “you are Peter� he then points to himself as the “rock on which I will build my Church�. If so, why the Peter = rock pun? But Jesus then says “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.� Who is he giving those keys to? “You� has pretty much an unavoidable interpretation considering that Jesus is talking to Peter.

Revelation 19:10 does not seem to have anything to do with this issue.

Revelation 19
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!� And he added, “These are the true words of God.�
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.�

An angel, who is of course not a member of any earthly church, is saying to worship God. Hardly a surprise. Where is the connection with the rock of Matthew 16?

[showme]

There are a GREAT many Christian sects/ communions/ churches.

BUT Only one is founded by Christ Himself. The Catholic Church.

So my friend, why are you NOT a Catholic?

God Bless,

Pat

Being raised in a Catholic family, I can see where you got derailed. You think that Yeshua named Peter the rock the church was to be built on, and that the Pope is Peter's heir. You would be wrong on several fronts. The "rock" the church is built on is not Peter, but the fact that the Spirit of Revelation revealed to Simon bar Jonas that Yeshua was "Christ, the son of the Living God". The "rock" the church is built on is the "Spirit of Revelation", and not on Peter, or that Yeshua is the Christ. As is shown in Rev 19:10, "the testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy". The "rock" is the Word of God, which includes the testimony of Yeshua. Yeshua is the "Word" made flesh, and it is Yeshua's testimony which you must eat without the hypocracy of the Pharisees, the chief Pharisee in question being Paul.

I will admit that the protestant church is the daughter of the Catholic church, and like mother like daughter, but the Roman church seems to more flagrantly out of step with the teachings of Yeshua. The best I can say is to follow what Yeshua says in Rev 18:4, that you should come out of her so that you do not have to participate in her plagues.

Can you give scriptural references for your claim that Peter is not the rock and was not given authority? The Catholic viewpoint is that the following is, ahem, a rock solid case for Peter being the rock in question and that Jesus gave him authority to create a church.

Matthew16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.�
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.�

a Matthew 16:18 The Greek word for Peter means rock.

I have heard claims that after Jesus says “you are Peter� he then points to himself as the “rock on which I will build my Church�. If so, why the Peter = rock pun? But Jesus then says “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.� Who is he giving those keys to? “You� has pretty much an unavoidable interpretation considering that Jesus is talking to Peter.

Revelation 19:10 does not seem to have anything to do with this issue.

Revelation 19
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!� And he added, “These are the true words of God.�
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.�

An angel, who is of course not a member of any earthly church, is saying to worship God. Hardly a surprise. Where is the connection with the rock of Matthew 16?

The "Catholic viewpoint" has lost its luster, and without the power of the Roman Empire to intimidate the powerless and uneducated masses, they are relegated to rote and tradition.

As for why Yeshua didn't make his point clear, he purposely left it unclear to fulfill prophecy, for he was here to fulfill prophecy. He fulfilled Ze 11:12 by picking Judas, who loved money. He chose Peter to fulfill Ze 11:14-17, for Peter did not care for the broken, sustain the one standing, or seek the scatteered, although Yeshua told Peter to tend the lambs, shepherd the sheep, and tend the sheep in the time frame of Peter denying Yeshua 3 times. With respect to the staff of Ze 11: 14-15, the equipment of a foolish shepherd, the pope carries a staff to this day, yet the sheep remain untended.

As for why he gave Peter the keys, and left his meaning unclear as to the reference to the "rock", it was to filfill Isaiah 22:15-25. Whereas Shebna is the forebearer of Peter, who carved "a resting place for yourself in the rock..", and was deposed, and the servant, Eliakim, the forebearer of the pope, was given Shebna's authority, and the keys, and was later, as a peg in a wall, to give way, and all those hanging on him will be cut off.

As for the rock the church is built on, it is the Word made flesh, Yeshua. The Word is the Spirit of Prophecy, and the Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of Prophecy. Rev 19:10 (The New American Standard Bible) "the testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy."

If one does not understand and heed the true foundation of the church, then when the winds and rain come, the house will fall. Mt 7:26

[ThatGirlAgain]

There are a GREAT many Christian sects/ communions/ churches.

BUT Only one is founded by Christ Himself. The Catholic Church.

So my friend, why are you NOT a Catholic?

God Bless,

Pat

Being raised in a Catholic family, I can see where you got derailed. You think that Yeshua named Peter the rock the church was to be built on, and that the Pope is Peter's heir. You would be wrong on several fronts. The "rock" the church is built on is not Peter, but the fact that the Spirit of Revelation revealed to Simon bar Jonas that Yeshua was "Christ, the son of the Living God". The "rock" the church is built on is the "Spirit of Revelation", and not on Peter, or that Yeshua is the Christ. As is shown in Rev 19:10, "the testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy". The "rock" is the Word of God, which includes the testimony of Yeshua. Yeshua is the "Word" made flesh, and it is Yeshua's testimony which you must eat without the hypocracy of the Pharisees, the chief Pharisee in question being Paul.

I will admit that the protestant church is the daughter of the Catholic church, and like mother like daughter, but the Roman church seems to more flagrantly out of step with the teachings of Yeshua. The best I can say is to follow what Yeshua says in Rev 18:4, that you should come out of her so that you do not have to participate in her plagues.

Can you give scriptural references for your claim that Peter is not the rock and was not given authority? The Catholic viewpoint is that the following is, ahem, a rock solid case for Peter being the rock in question and that Jesus gave him authority to create a church.

Matthew16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.�
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.�

a Matthew 16:18 The Greek word for Peter means rock.

I have heard claims that after Jesus says “you are Peter� he then points to himself as the “rock on which I will build my Church�. If so, why the Peter = rock pun? But Jesus then says “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.� Who is he giving those keys to? “You� has pretty much an unavoidable interpretation considering that Jesus is talking to Peter.

Revelation 19:10 does not seem to have anything to do with this issue.

Revelation 19
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!� And he added, “These are the true words of God.�
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.�

An angel, who is of course not a member of any earthly church, is saying to worship God. Hardly a surprise. Where is the connection with the rock of Matthew 16?

The "Catholic viewpoint" has lost its luster, and without the power of the Roman Empire to intimidate the powerless and uneducated masses, they are relegated to rote and tradition.

As for why Yeshua didn't make his point clear, he purposely left it unclear to fulfill prophecy, for he was here to fulfill prophecy. He fulfilled Ze 11:12 by picking Judas, who loved money. He chose Peter to fulfill Ze 11:14-17, for Peter did not care for the broken, sustain the one standing, or seek the scatteered, although Yeshua told Peter to tend the lambs, shepherd the sheep, and tend the sheep in the time frame of Peter denying Yeshua 3 times. With respect to the staff of Ze 11: 14-15, the equipment of a foolish shepherd, the pope carries a staff to this day, yet the sheep remain untended.

As for why he gave Peter the keys, and left his meaning unclear as to the reference to the "rock", it was to filfill Isaiah 22:15-25. Whereas Shebna is the forebearer of Peter, who carved "a resting place for yourself in the rock..", and was deposed, and the servant, Eliakim, the forebearer of the pope, was given Shebna's authority, and the keys, and was later, as a peg in a wall, to give way, and all those hanging on him will be cut off.

As for the rock the church is built on, it is the Word made flesh, Yeshua. The Word is the Spirit of Prophecy, and the Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of Prophecy. Rev 19:10 (The New American Standard Bible) "the testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy."

If one does not understand and heed the true foundation of the church, then when the winds and rain come, the house will fall. Mt 7:26

What Jesus said in Matthew 16 is extremely plain and clear and totally unambiguous. You have yet to address that or show any other scriptural reference that says otherwise. There is no doubt that Jesus wanted Peter to go build a church.

Let’s take a look at Zechariah 11:14-17 which you claim refers to Peter.

14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the family bond between Judah and Israel.
15 Then the LORD said to me, “Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hooves.
17 “Woe to the worthless shepherd,
who deserts the flock!
May the sword strike his arm and his right eye!
May his arm be completely withered,
his right eye totally blinded!�

So you are saying that Jesus deliberately picked the wrong person. And that he did this in order to fulfill a prophecy. Where did that prophecy come from? Obviously it came from God as did all prophecies. So you are saying that because of a prophecy from God, Jesus was compelled to do the absolutely wrong thing. You do realize how unlikely this sounds, right?

But of course we can see in Acts that the Zechariah passage clearly does not apply to Peter, who headed the early church in Jerusalem.

Acts 2
44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

Acts 4
32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

Here is what Matthew Henry has to say about the Zechariah passage.

Commentary on Zechariah 11:15-17

God, having showed the misery of this people in their being justly left by the Good Shepherd, shows their further misery in being abused by foolish shepherds. The description suits the character Christ gives of the scribes and Pharisees. They never do any thing to support the weak, or comfort the feeble-minded; but seek their own ease, while they are barbarous to the flock. The idol shepherd has the garb and appearance of a shepherd, receives submission, and is supported at much expense; but he leaves the flock to perish through neglect, or leads them to ruin by his example. This suits many in different churches [*] and nations, but the warning had an awful fulfilment in the Jewish teachers. And while such deceive others to their ruin, they will themselves have the deepest condemnation.


http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.p ... &b=38&c=11

[*] Ever watch any televangelists? Check this out.

Are there abuses in churches? You bet. But why are you singling out the Catholic Church? Examples of abuses would be pertinent, although this is probably not the sub-forum for it. But the scriptural approach just fails and does nothing to address the OP’s point of view.