Atheism and morality vs. Christianity and morality

[Confused]

I have often heard that atheists are amoral and that Christianity offers the way to morality. This thread is quite simple then I guess.

1) Is there any evidence to link atheism and amorality? What?
2) Is there any evidence to link atheism and morality? What?
3) Is there any evidence to link Christianity and amorality? What?
4) Is there any evidence to link Christianity and morality? What?

[Goat]

I have often heard that atheists are amoral and that Christianity offers the way to morality. This thread is quite simple then I guess.

1) Is there any evidence to link atheism and amorality? What?
2) Is there any evidence to link atheism and morality? What?
3) Is there any evidence to link Christianity and amorality? What?
4) Is there any evidence to link Christianity and morality? What?

I don't think that 'atheism' per say is equated with either morality or amorality. However, that does not mean that atheism can not rationally have a basis for morality. The human evolved trait of 'empathy' and the concept of reciprocal altruism can form a basis for a morality without the need for a specific deity.

Richard Dawkins was asked about absolute morality from someone who was trying to do a 'gotcha' question that he handled quite well I think
[youtube][/youtube]

[cholland]

It's not that atheists can't be immoral or Christians are always moral, but that Christianity allows for morals to exist and we are simply discovering them. For example, few people will deny that love, peace, patience, kindness etc. "exist" even though these are immaterial concepts. So the question is...how does an immaterial concept exist in a secular world? Why do we understand "love" when it is immaterial and cannot be proved?

[CrunkJuice]

Christianity allows for morals to exist

Are you implying that without Christianity we wouldn't have a set of morals? Seriously? Does it really take a religion to tell us that killing someone, stealing something or adultery is wrong? If it did for you that's pretty sad

[Confused]

It's not that atheists can't be immoral or Christians are always moral, but that Christianity allows for morals to exist and we are simply discovering them. For example, few people will deny that love, peace, patience, kindness etc. "exist" even though these are immaterial concepts. So the question is...how does an immaterial concept exist in a secular world? Why do we understand "love" when it is immaterial and cannot be proved?

Actually, studies have show that the neurotransmitters and hormones become so "unbalanced" when a person describes being in love it could actually be defined as a mental disorder. The emotion "love" is quite ambiguous, but the bodies reaction to the "emotion" that is becomes all unbalanced.

Do you suggest that morality didn't exist prior to the establishment of Christianity?

[Goat]

It's not that atheists can't be immoral or Christians are always moral, but that Christianity allows for morals to exist and we are simply discovering them. For example, few people will deny that love, peace, patience, kindness etc. "exist" even though these are immaterial concepts. So the question is...how does an immaterial concept exist in a secular world? Why do we understand "love" when it is immaterial and cannot be proved?

How does Christianity allows for 'moral to exist and we are simply discovering them'.?? How can this be distinguished from 'Through thought and reason, we choose that this is a better set of rules of conduct'?

And, what do you mean by 'love'??

[cholland]

Christianity allows for morals to exist

Are you implying that without Christianity we wouldn't have a set of morals? Seriously? Does it really take a religion to tell us that killing someone, stealing something or adultery is wrong? If it did for you that's pretty sad

No. Morals can exist outside of a book declaring what they are. Like I said, an atheist can be a moral person. My point was Christianity as a worldview, namely that there are immaterial "things" and concepts above and beyond humanity, allows for morals to "exist." Atheism, or perhaps secularism, on the other hand does not. Everything must be seen with the eyes to be understood and anything not material should be seen with skepticism. Love, peace, patience, etc becomes nothing but a personal feeling that cannot exist outside of one's head. In my experience, this is not true. Others understand love as something more than a chemical unbalance. Different societies strive for peace, not as a material thing they can touch, but a concept.

How does Christianity allows for 'moral to exist and we are simply discovering them'.?? How can this be distinguished from 'Through thought and reason, we choose that this is a better set of rules of conduct'?

And, what do you mean by 'love'??

Yes, through thought and reason we can discover them. However, Christianity has not only allowed for those rules of conduct to exist, but they exist for a reason. Love to a secularist is nothing more than a personal concept that differs from one person to another. You ask me "what is love" and I give you my best answer and you disagree. It boils down to deconstructionism. However, I say love is beyond a personal concept and we should strive to discover it. My definition of love is not the true one because I didn't create it. Something material could not have created it because it is immaterial. It's a concept. That's my question in my first post. How does an immaterial concept exist in a secular world? Christianity allows for an immaterial person to exist and say he is love, but a secularist does not allow for an immaterial person to exist and love becomes nothing.

[JohnPaul]

Christianity allows for morals to exist

Are you implying that without Christianity we wouldn't have a set of morals? Seriously? Does it really take a religion to tell us that killing someone, stealing something or adultery is wrong? If it did for you that's pretty sad

No. Morals can exist outside of a book declaring what they are. Like I said, an atheist can be a moral person. My point was Christianity as a worldview, namely that there are immaterial "things" and concepts above and beyond humanity, allows for morals to "exist." Atheism, or perhaps secularism, on the other hand does not. Everything must be seen with the eyes to be understood and anything not material should be seen with skepticism. Love, peace, patience, etc becomes nothing but a personal feeling that cannot exist outside of one's head. In my experience, this is not true. Others understand love as something more than a chemical unbalance. Different societies strive for peace, not as a material thing they can touch, but a concept.

How does Christianity allows for 'moral to exist and we are simply discovering them'.?? How can this be distinguished from 'Through thought and reason, we choose that this is a better set of rules of conduct'?

And, what do you mean by 'love'??

Yes, through thought and reason we can discover them. However, Christianity has not only allowed for those rules of conduct to exist, but they exist for a reason. Love to a secularist is nothing more than a personal concept that differs from one person to another. You ask me "what is love" and I give you my best answer and you disagree. It boils down to deconstructionism. However, I say love is beyond a personal concept and we should strive to discover it. My definition of love is not the true one because I didn't create it. Something material could not have created it because it is immaterial. It's a concept. That's my question in my first post. How does an immaterial concept exist in a secular world? Christianity allows for an immaterial person to exist and say he is love, but a secularist does not allow for an immaterial person to exist and love becomes nothing.

I am sure the 70 to 100 thousand women tortured and burned as witches by Christians in Europe would have appreciated that explanation of Christian love before they died.

John

[Goat]

Christianity allows for morals to exist

Are you implying that without Christianity we wouldn't have a set of morals? Seriously? Does it really take a religion to tell us that killing someone, stealing something or adultery is wrong? If it did for you that's pretty sad

No. Morals can exist outside of a book declaring what they are. Like I said, an atheist can be a moral person. My point was Christianity as a worldview, namely that there are immaterial "things" and concepts above and beyond humanity, allows for morals to "exist." Atheism, or perhaps secularism, on the other hand does not. Everything must be seen with the eyes to be understood and anything not material should be seen with skepticism. Love, peace, patience, etc becomes nothing but a personal feeling that cannot exist outside of one's head. In my experience, this is not true. Others understand love as something more than a chemical unbalance. Different societies strive for peace, not as a material thing they can touch, but a concept.

How does Christianity allows for 'moral to exist and we are simply discovering them'.?? How can this be distinguished from 'Through thought and reason, we choose that this is a better set of rules of conduct'?

And, what do you mean by 'love'??

Yes, through thought and reason we can discover them. However, Christianity has not only allowed for those rules of conduct to exist, but they exist for a reason. Love to a secularist is nothing more than a personal concept that differs from one person to another. You ask me "what is love" and I give you my best answer and you disagree. It boils down to deconstructionism. However, I say love is beyond a personal concept and we should strive to discover it. My definition of love is not the true one because I didn't create it. Something material could not have created it because it is immaterial. It's a concept. That's my question in my first post. How does an immaterial concept exist in a secular world? Christianity allows for an immaterial person to exist and say he is love, but a secularist does not allow for an immaterial person to exist and love becomes nothing.

Just because Christianity allows for that (Or makes the claim, not allow), does not mean it is true. The immaterial concepts appear in the secular world because of the development of the brain and imagination. That does not mean the concept has actual physical existence.

However, when it comes to love, .. which definition do you have for love? The bond between people is biochemical reactions.

[johnmarc]

I am sure the 70 to 100 thousand women tortured and burned as witches by Christians in Europe would have appreciated that explanation of Christian love before they died.
John

Do you have any support for this claim? I have spent the last hour on the Internet and have found all manner of claims. Which one did you use and why?