Liberal Christians only believe some "fundamentalism?

[AlAyeti]

There are now political Christians wanting to "re-claim" Christianity from whatever the "Right" is, or has done to it. Claiming that their way of Christianity is more like what Jesus would want.

But many of these Liberal positions hold to funadamentalism on the poor, the needy and anti-war and violence, but oppose Biblical truth on many other issues.

Why do Liberal Christians deny the truths of the New Testament on marriage and children as defined by Jesus himself?

Liberals will teach about condom usage but decry the Biblical truth about abstaining from sex until marriage as something ignorant or intolerant?

Why are not Liberal Christians funding missionaries to go to Muslim and other countries to spread the Gospel exactly the way Jesus described and exactly the way it is presented in the Gospels?

How can Liberal Christians support a womans right to kill her unborn child and encourage a woman to go and do it, while at the same time, denying the same rights of choice on the matter be given equal recognition to the father of the child?

How and why can Liberal Christians call themselves Christians while only preaching and teaching some immutable Christian positions and not all?

[AlAyeti]

Yes, all these liberals aren't following God's command. But then, these fundamentalists aren't either. What's the point of lecturing anyone about how wrong they might be when you aren't perfect yourself? Jesus died so that everyone who loves him may be saved, because no-one can follow all of God's law.

At what point in the education process do we learn "Two wrongs make a right."

Fundamentalists, by the very definition of the word, hold themselves to the same accountability as anyone else.

Liberals redefine the well-defined and in print Biblical parameters. And, Liberals literally redefine words and their meanings.

Which one is clearly seen to be "in" the wrong?

Is it loving your neighbor by allowing them to play on a highway?

Is it Liberal to redefine the word playground and apply it to a highway?

It certainly seems that the facts are that this is what Liberals are indeed doing in Biblical terms.

The Church, the "Ecclesia" the "Called Out Ones" were coming OUT of the way the world obviously works. Allow the world into the Church is clearly the definitions of heresy and heretic.

Conservatives and Fundamentalists, by choosing to believe the Gospels the way the words read, clearly are on opposite sides to Liberals.

Using the Gospels as a guide, there is only one choice.

BUT, in accepting the Gospel message, sins, sexuality, and opinions . . . have been given a safe place to be put aside! The playground!!!!

"You must become like a little child."

The beauty in that guideline is the freedom for every single person desiring to Worship Christ to enter into the playground of God and have a good time. No agendas, no sexual pressures, no worry.

Christ in that single absolute provides the place where every person can find acceptance. Children just want to play.

Come and go with me to my Father's house.

Come and go with me . . . to . . . my . . . Father's house.

Its a big, big house with lots and lots of rooms.

With a big, big table with lots and lots of food.

A big big yard where we can play football.

It's my Father's house.

In the heart of a child is indeed an eternity without strife, without stress, without fear. We only learn about the other side when we leave that way of thinking.

In a world without labels right?

That is on the playground.

[palmera]

Good point. But, you know what else children don't worry about, anyone else. The rest of the world is somethig for adults to worry about.

[scorpia]

Liberals redefine the well-defined and in print Biblical parameters. And, Liberals literally redefine words and their meanings.

Which one is clearly seen to be "in" the wrong?

I have already said;

But yes, it is plain homosexuality is not encouraged in the Bible. It simply tells followers not to do that.

The thing is though perhaps some followers may feel that they can't. And they try to focus more on the Golden rule mostly. And that may be all fair and well, but that shouldn't mean ignoring the fact that all these rules in the Bible say so and so are wrong to do. Christians are supposed to try and follow them. The Golden rule is a means to this, not a replacement.

Now Meliko lost his head over the matter I guess;

Finally, if I REALLY DO have to beat up on others (socially, morally, religiously) who do not believe in MY "way" because the "Bible" says so, then I'm out of the "Christian" club for good (as far as some are concerned). It really is TOO HARD, to be the relgion some expect, and rather than focus upon failure after failure, I think doing one's best inside of the insurmountable grace represented in Jesus' sacrifice makes a lot more sense.

And I guess perhaps he feels upset.

Maybe there ARE liberals who tend to twist the meaning of the Bible, and that IS wrong; "Jesus didn't die to make possible a life of drunkness and orgies," after all. But at the same time, there are some Christians who have this problem;

I know it's likely impossible to be "right" in God's eyes. I've tried and failed so many times, I'm tired of trying (really).

Som fundamentalists, too, I guess might also have this problem. I have heard of some virtually wrapping themselves in bubblewrap all their lives avoiding so much as a game of bowling with others in order to be righteous.

But then, maybe the fundamentalists have got it wrong too, "Galatians 3: 2 ; I would like to learn one thing from you; Did you recieve the spirit by observing the law, , or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort..." And it goes on.......

Once agian, I am pressed for time. Still, IMO you are all wrong. No one should "Twist the bible" to allow whatever, and should do their best to follow the guidelines in it. But also Christianity shouldn't be about following rules 24/7 in such a manner that it creates a wall between himself and others as well as, in the end, God.

How often have I myself tried to be right in God's eyes, and realised that I myself am in no way worthy to be able to be called a Christian, by either side?

[melikio]

No, my post really isn't about being merely upset; you see it for what it really is, a SHIFT in my faith.

Only God's grace will bring me into heaven now. I'm literally exhausted by the Christians who work so hard to affect the lives/mind of homosexual people (and they have so many problem themselves).

Not that I expect perfection, but that people are basically "mean", and they justify it using the Bible. WAHT A MASSIVE CROCK!!! It took me years to figure out how hypocritical all this FAKE "holiness" really was/is.

"Upset?!" If you could get a DIRECT translation of my heart from God Himself, you'd really understand the range and intensity of emptions that went into my last post. I knew the barrier that "words" impose, would somewhat mitigate what I was actually feeling; that's ok. I don't want to make people feel bad, just help them to understand some things they really DO NOT.

Even so, I'm really starting to believe that I'm really not a "Christian". And it seems to be the reality (by definition) for gay people, as many understand it. I just hope I can stay away from people (for the rest of my life), who believe it is their place to systenmatically DEHUMANIZE homosexuals for Jesus. I'm tired of it, I'm not tolerant of it and I cannot understand why I HAVE to be (especially when I KNOW how a real "Christian" SHOULD be, in dealing with others).

There are too many JERKS wielding Bibles, basically bullying anyone who doesn't fit THEIR exact definition of rigteousness and holiness. I hope God shows me how to STAY AWAY from those people (at least not be affected by their veiled hatred and damaging ignorance.

Man!! This drives me nuts, I tend to love people a lot and regularly. But so few really know how to handle a real, breathing, homosexual person (like we just dropped out of the sky). I'm so sick and tired of that (and many "Christians" perpetuate that crap). They aren't LIKE JESUS and they aren't doing much good in far too many cases. They stereotype nearly ALL homosexuals and don't care to CALL people on their hatred towards us, when they are looking right at it.

I'm NOT a "Christian"...fine. (May God's grace be upon me, and let HIM label me now; I'd rather deal with Him, than so many hateful people in this life.)

Peace all,

-Mel-[/i]

[AlAyeti]

It may come as a surprise but Christians are just people too.

People that vote. People that have the right to see family and marriage a certain way. It is not intolerance or bigotry to think and to assert that marriage is man-woman. That family is father-mother and their biological children.

In all of the hatred and labeling that Christians endure thrust at them, it seems purposely forgotten that all people have the right to live and express their ideas freely.

When same-sex marriage is legalized (we forget it is not legal), Christianty will be illegal the same day as a hate crime.

Christians are not judging others. Christianity is already a well-defined belief system. Christians are being forced to have to change their beliefs to appear nice to people that do not want to admit they are not willing to follow the teachings of Christianty.

These Christian haters are people free to start other religions and have all of the same rights as Christians and other religions. But it seems clear that Christians must somehow endure what Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Mormons, Sikhs, Native American Indians, and other well-defined belief systems do not have to be forced to endure!

Why is that people bewail Christians for being Christians? Fair enough to hold anyone accountable for physical violence, but, there are already laws to do that TO anyone.

It seems clear that Christians are under severe attack to HAVE TO accomodate anti-Christians IN their Churches.

Why?

No one is forcing Muslims in Mosques to stop the bigotry towards infidels. Islam is 100% intolerant of non-believers! But, no word from the Gay-Straight Alliance or the Democrat National Commitee chairman about Muslim bigots!

It seems clear that not only are "Liberal Christians" entertaining heresy, but demand that every other kind of Christian Church see things only their way. That is bigotry and close-mindedness.

The extreme Liberal Minister (retired) John Shelby Spong wrote a book entitled Christianty Must Change Or Die.

It is clear that Liberals hold that as gospel truth.

[scorpia]

"Upset?!" If you could get a DIRECT translation of my heart from God Himself, you'd really understand the range and intensity of emptions that went into my last post.

Alright, alright. So "upset" a bit mild. I am afraid I do not quite know WHAT you are going through except what you have mentioned here. (Although I did get some tripe during high school because people thought I was gay lol but I'm not).

They aren't LIKE JESUS and they aren't doing much good in far too many cases. They stereotype nearly ALL homosexuals and don't care to CALL people on their hatred towards us, when they are looking right at it.

Who says they hate? The problem is all the focus on homosexuality so much.

Now;

Christians are not judging others. Christianity is already a well-defined belief system. Christians are being forced to have to change their beliefs to appear nice to people that do not want to admit they are not willing to follow the teachings of Christianity.

In what part of the Bible does it state that a Christian's belief must include not being nice to those who are not following the teachings of Christianity so much? It says to give them some distance, perhaps, but not to shove yourself in their face!

Besides some of these people do try to change. But the best way to help them is to be nice. Being mean doesn't help. All it does is chase people away from God.

You know, you gave off some point about how wrong divorce was. But then in the Bible it was mentioned it was probably better for a woman and man not to marry at all. You however are married (you said you had kids), but I am not, and probably never will be, nor do I feel I need to be. Maybe I can construe that to mean that I am a true follower of Christ while you aren't. I guess that means I have a right to be mean to you. I am holier than art thou! So gna!

In all of the hatred and labeling that Christians endure thrust at them, it seems purposely forgotten that all people have the right to live and express their ideas freely.

Yes, there is some anti-Christian bigotry going on, I'll admit that I see things that way. But those people have the problem of blaming all the troubles today on Christianity. But when you blame people who are gay for all the world's problems, how are you any better? They stubbornly think they are right and think they are smarter than everyone else, but you can be better than them.

Some people think that refusing to be homosexual automatically means to hate them. It doesn’t. Then again, I’m not surprised. Go take a bunch of vegans and eventually they would try to convince everyone not to eat meat because they think they are right. You have a bunch of anti-Christians who bash Christianity because they think they are right. You have Christians who rant on and on about gays because they think they are right. When are any of you ever going to get a damn clue that you’re never going to be in the right? You all look at history saying that you’ve learned it all, but all you’ve learnt is to blame it all on one group and try to get rid of them instead of looking at yourselves and see the problem is in yourself, and in the end you don’t learn one bit of history and end up repeating it.

Anyways I’m ranting now

[McCulloch]

In all of the hatred and labeling that Christians endure thrust at them, it seems purposely forgotten that all people have the right to live and express their ideas freely.
When same-sex marriage is legalized (we forget it is not legal), Christianty will be illegal the same day as a hate crime.

Every religion has its taboos. In some it is considered sinful to eat certain foods (pork, certain seafood, meat, alcohol). In others is is considered sinful to engage in certain activities. My grandmother, a Methodist, was certain that playing cards were a tool of the devil. Many religions have sexual taboos. None of these are illegal. Same-sex marriage is legal here in Canada and Christianity is also legal. Each Christian organization is free to decide which taboos apply to them. You don't want to allow homosexuals into your church. That is fine. Another church does not want to allow women into positions of authority. That is fine too, even though it seems to contradict the Bill of Rights. A more liberal inclusive church wants to allow both. As far as I am concerned, that is their business.
The distinction that you seem to fail to see is that these religious groups should not have the right to impose their religious beliefs on the rest of us. A muslim or a jew who is also a civil servant is not allowed to treat pork eaters as unclean while doing their jobs. A Jehovah's Witness is not allowed to close down the blood banks or to make statements to incite hatred towards medical professionals who run them.
Your type of Christian, however, seems to not only prohibit your own people from homosexuality but you seem to want to impose your particular taboos on the entire society and to deny gays their civil rights.

Christians are not judging others. Christianity is already a well-defined belief system. Christians are being forced to have to change their beliefs to appear nice to people that do not want to admit they are not willing to follow the teachings of Christianty.

I will leave it to the many sects and factions within Christianity to bicker between themselves on this issue.

[MagusYanam]

Liberals redefine the well-defined and in print Biblical parameters. And, Liberals literally redefine words and their meanings.

Allow the world into the Church is clearly the definitions of heresy and heretic.

I submit the following definition of 'heresy'.

Main Entry:her-e-sy
Pronunciation: 'herese, -si
Function:noun
Inflected Form:-es
Etymology:Middle English eresie, heresie, from Old French, from Late Latin haeresis, from Late Greek hairesis, from Greek, action of taking, choice, sect, from hairein to take + -sis; perhaps akin to Greek horme assault, attack - more at SERUM

1 a : adherence to a religious opinion that is contrary to an established dogma of a church : HETERODOXY - opposed to orthodoxy
b : a deliberate and obstinate denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church - compare INQUISITION 3a
c : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma

2 a : dissent from a dominant theory or opinion in any field
b : an opinion or doctrine contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs

3 : a group or school of thought centering around a particular heresy

It becomes clear here who is really redefining terms. 'Heresy' is belief which is contrary to the established truth. Here the greatest heresy is the fundamentalists': for denying divine grace in both their theology and in their practise. It is the fundamentalists who consistently, deliberately and obstinately (not to mention ironically) deny this most fundamental revealed truth.

Liberal Christianity has its problems, to be sure. But heresy is not one of them. We are the Church, and we are open to all who seek forgiveness and grace.

Christians are being forced to have to change their beliefs to appear nice to people that do not want to admit they are not willing to follow the teachings of Christianty.

It's our categorical imperative to be the 'good guys' as Christians. We should be holding consistent beliefs and respecting the moral agency of people above all - even above our own beliefs. We should be allowing people to become morally sufficient, not driving them out. And we should be striving for the just society.

It would be improper and inconsistent to do otherwise, since I don't see fundamentalism as anywhere approaching 'just'. They just want to stamp other Christians into the dust and claim a Jesus who will condone destruction and violence by whatever name is expedient. This is completely, morally wrong - even evil, and I'm sure I'm not the only Christian who feels this way.

[AlAyeti]

McCulloch,

A fine post and I'll print it out and keep it. I hope you will have the same opinion when the Chrstians that preach the truth of the New Testament are indicted for hate crimes.

[AlAyeti]

AlAyeti wrote:
Liberals redefine the well-defined and in print Biblical parameters. And, Liberals literally redefine words and their meanings.


AlAyeti wrote:
Allow the world into the Church is clearly the definitions of heresy and heretic.


I submit the following definition of 'heresy'.

Merriam-Webster wrote:
Main Entry:her-e-sy
Pronunciation: 'herese, -si
Function:noun
Inflected Form:-es
Etymology:Middle English eresie, heresie, from Old French, from Late Latin haeresis, from Late Greek hairesis, from Greek, action of taking, choice, sect, from hairein to take + -sis; perhaps akin to Greek horme assault, attack - more at SERUM

1 a : adherence to a religious opinion that is contrary to an established dogma of a church : HETERODOXY - opposed to orthodoxy
b : a deliberate and obstinate denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church - compare INQUISITION 3a
c : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma

2 a : dissent from a dominant theory or opinion in any field
b : an opinion or doctrine contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs

3 : a group or school of thought centering around a particular heresy

It becomes clear here who is really redefining terms. 'Heresy' is belief which is contrary to the established truth.

Liberal Orthodoxy is oxymoron personified. What new version of Christianity is around the corner.

Liberal Christian churches hold that Jesus was not resurrected. That he is just "a way" to God, abortion is a womans choice and that people of the same-sex can "celebrate" their union within the "orthodoxy" that does not and has not ever existed. And according to the words in the Gospels, never can.

Here the greatest heresy is the fundamentalists': for denying divine grace in both their theology and in their practise. It is the fundamentalists who consistently, deliberately and obstinately (not to mention ironically) deny this most fundamental revealed truth.

We can debate this point for point. Liberals have only some fundamental truths to their credit. Other "orthodoxy" is simply jettisoned for political correctness. Something also very unChristlike.

Liberal Christianity has its problems, to be sure. But heresy is not one of them. We are the Church, and we are open to all who seek forgiveness and grace.

Which version of Liberalism? The one that believes Jesus was eaten by dogs? Please see what Liberal Theologians at the Jesus Seminar hold as "orthodoxy." In fact they have jettisoned many crucial orthodix texts.

AlAyeti wrote:
Christians are being forced to have to change their beliefs to appear nice to people that do not want to admit they are not willing to follow the teachings of Christianty.

It's our categorical imperative to be the 'good guys' as Christians. We should be holding consistent beliefs and respecting the moral agency of people above all - even above our own beliefs

.

That is a heretical concept. In fact no writer of the New Testament agrees with this wild belief. "If Christ be not raised, our faith is in vain." Satan is either real or not. Most Liberal Christians think that Satan is a myth. No wonder.

We should be allowing people to become morally sufficient, not driving them out. And we should be striving for the just society.

The word "Ecclesia" applied to "what" was the Church completely refutes that statement.

It would be improper and inconsistent to do otherwise, since I don't see fundamentalism as anywhere approaching 'just'. They just want to stamp other Christians into the dust and claim a Jesus who will condone destruction and violence by whatever name is expedient.

This a libelous statement. Violence like same-sex marriage and killing unborn children as birth contol are not teachings of Christian orthodoxy.

This is completely, morally wrong - even evil, and I'm sure I'm not the only Christian who feels this way.

Certainly the way a Liberal Christian feels IS Christian is as evident as the abominations allowed to be celebrated in lifestyle and in Church. If that is viewed as libelous, then bringing evidence to this debate will show what IS and what ISN'T Christian.

Fundamentalists can be seen to "fail" the Gospel because of the accurate use of the words in the text of the Gospel.

Liberals endure the same testing and fail in far more categories.

The parable of the wheat and the tares is coming into sharp relief.

As usual, Jesus is perfect again.