Is Hell and Those Who Will Go There Eternal?

[barney]

Shalom,

In Mark 9:43-44, et al, we find Scriptures spoken by Jesus Himself, of an ETERNAL HELL, and the LOST who will enter it, in direct reference to a condition where THEIR (personal pronoun) WORM dieth not. While, the thoughts of an Eternal Hell to many of today's Biblical Scholars and Theologians is rapidly becoming 'politically incorrect', the Word of God begs to differ with them nonetheless.

Mark 9:43 (KJV)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:44 (KJV)
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

To this end, the premise of this article is NOT to prove an Eternal HELL, which is self evident from simple Scriptural understanding, but rather to shed light on the Eternal WORN that will exist in this unimaginable place of Eternal Punishment.

It takes a greater work of Scriptural gymnastics hammered on the anvil of disbelief to DISPROVE an Eternal Hell, then the Child like FAITH to accept God's sovereign omnipotent WISDOM and authority.

Many have speculated that these aforementioned WORMS are nothing more than some sort of demonic creatures that will devour the flesh of the damned and doomed mankind during their temporal destruction in the eternal and infernal place of Torment. Meanwhile, it is equally presumed that the Lake of Fire is only designed for Satan, his 1/3 Fallen Cohorts, the man AC, and the False Prophet.

However, this is not at all what Scripture reveals, the Bible states that the Righteous will view the 'carcasses' of those who have transgressed against God in a place where the fire is unquenched and THEIR (personal pronoun) WORN shall NEVER die.

Isaiah 66:24 (KJV)
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

To this end then, WHO are these WORMS that shall NEVER DIE which Jesus reveals in Mk. 9:44, et al?

The following Scriptures makes it perfectly clear by direct language SYMBOLIZING who these ETERNAL WORMS are most likely to be, even Jacob himself was addressed by the Lord as a WORM.

Job 25:6 (KJV)
6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

Psalms 22:6 (KJV)
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

Isaiah 41:14 (KJV)
14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

What then can easily be deduced from the above supposition, is that MAN is symbolized by a WORM and respecting Mk. 9:43-44 spoken directly by Jesus Himself, cited above, is referring to the LOST without HOPE in CHRIST.

Therefore, with direct respect to the ETERNAL FLAME, Matt. 25:41 does NOT imply exclusivity with relationship to those who will be deposited into 'Everlasting' Fire.

Matthew 25:41 (KJV)
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Nowhere in the above Passage is the word ONLY implied with respect to Satan and his Angels... simply PREPARED (made ready). Moreover, this Passage declares that those who have been judged unworthy from among the nations (those on the left hand) will ALSO be cast into the Everlasting Fire.

Meanwhile, Rev.19:20 reveals that the Beast and the False Prophet will be deposited there as well. The Beast and the False Prophet are NOT once mentioned in Matt. 25:41, in exception to exclusivity...for ONLY Satan and his Angels.

Also, Rev. 20:14-15 reveals that subsequent to the Great White Throne Judgment of the DEAD (Second Death) will be deposited in the Everlasting Lake of Fire as well.

To reiterate, in Mk. 9:43-48 Jesus is indeed referring back to the Isaiah prophecy of 66:23-24.

Meanwhile, with respect to the WORM that DIETH NOT. Therefore, if it can shown where something that will NEVER DIE (even Christians are addressed in Scripture relevant to this SAME language - Jn. 11:26, et al.) is indeed NOT INFINITE or Eternal, then you have my undivided attention as well as a realistic defense for your concern, otherwise...

To this end, the KEY to understanding this prophecy is quite simple...those DEAD BODIES who will be in the (their) FIRE that is NOT QUENCED (Eternal Hell) are all those who have transgressed against the LORD:

Isaiah 66:23-24 (KJV)
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Therefore, Jesus WARNS the grammatical antecedents ETERNAL WORM(s) - those transgressing against the LORD - of Mk. 43, 45 and 47, NOT to go to the place of ETERNAL HELL where THEIR Worm Dies NOT.

As such, the antecedent possessive personal pronoun THEIR with respect to the LXX (greek Septuagint), referring to the CARCASES/DEAD BODIES, is in EXACT agreement with Isaiah 66:24 (the Worm that shall NOT DIE - CARCASE) and the ETERNAL WORM that Jesus revealed in Mk. 44, 47, and 48.

"...In this sentence, the greek (in the septuagint, it is presumably the personal pronoun) their refers back to what? The answer is "carcasses" ("dead bodies")."

Moreover, the POSSESSOR of the ETERNAL WORM (Dead Body) is what is 'Spiritually' INSIDE of the Dead Body/Eternal Worm. To this end, when in Job 25:6, Psalms 22:6, and Isaiah 41:14 when God calls man a WORM He was referring to the 'physical body'. However, with respect to natural man there is ALSO a Soul/Spirit that dwells within the 'temporal' WORM.

Meanwhile, it is duely noted that WORMS eat decaying matter, i.e. dead bodies. However, the ETERNAL WORMS that BELONG (Ownership) to those who have transgressed against the LORD, per Scripture, are NOT 'external' consuming worms separate of the carcase, but rather the DEAD BODIES/CARCASES themselves, that will NEVER Die.

Therefore, if the WORM/DEAD BODY is ETERNAL, then so must its HOST OWNER (THEIR) that 'dwells within' be as well. If the OWNER (Spirit/Soul inside of the ETERNAL WORM) was to vanish away, then Eternal Hell would have Eternal Worms/DEAD BODIES with NO OWNERS. Nonetheless, below is what/where these ETERNAL WORMS will originate from - the DEAD BODIES that will NEVER DIE.

Dan. 12:2, Jn. 5:28-29 and Rev. 20:5 makes if perfectly clear that there will be a Resurrection of the DEAD in Sin (the Resurrection of the Damned).

John 5:28 (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Seeing therefore, that the former Carcases of these Damned and Dead resurrected individuals have long since been consumed by other parasites that are/were NOT ETERNAL (natural), then God has/will prepared (created) a NEW BODY for these doomed TRANSGRESSORS as well. Rev. 20:11-15, reveals that the DEAD will come out of their graves (see Jn. 5:28-29 above) and their resurrected DEAD BODIES (newly created - ETERNAL WORMS) will STAND before God to be Judged for THEIR transgressing against the LORD.

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

barney

[barney]

Shalom JW,

In your 12/10/11 post when you made the statement, "...that whoever believes in him [Yeshua Jesus] will have AIONIOS life..." - you were exacly CORRECT.

JOHN 3:16:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him will not perish , but have aionios life.

To this end, Jn. 3:16 has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever, to do with the clearly definable timeframe of the said 1,000 years Millennial reign with Christ (Rev. 20:6). These two entities are as different as apples vs. oranges.

One is clearly defined by Scripture as an AGE (1,000 yrs.) while the other is an "aionios' ETERNAL...and as I have shown before - it has a DETERMINATE beginning but is INFINITE in duration.

To suggest, that Jesus ONLY offered His SALVATION to us for 1,000 years is both laughable and ludicrous. Therefore, if we subscribe to this notion of an AGE, respective of Jn. 3:16 then we must also admit that at the ending of the 1,000 years AGE, then we Born Again Believers shall ALL likewise PERISH - because that is exactly what Jn. 3:16 declares we are SAVED from.

Moreover, in this same Passage, preceeding the ETERNAL aionios, is the greek word 'me' - meaning NOT or NEVER, which grammatically illuminates the following ETERNAL aionios. Therefore, those who BELIEVE in YESHUA Jesus will NEVER Perish, but rather will have ETERNAL Life - with Jesus.

In summary, if one can NOT/NEVER Perish then by reciprocity one can equally have ETERNAL NON-ENDING Life with Christ.

Hope this helps.

barney

[bluethread]

I am pleased to see that there is an acceptance of rabbinic idiom as a valuable clue in interpreting the Apostolic Writings, in these forums. Your point is well taken that Mark 9:44 (KJV) "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." could very well be idiomatic for extreme dire consequences. Also, your connection of it to a passage in the Tanach is helpful in supporting that view. With that in mind, is it also possible that the concept of Sheol is also an idiomatic reference to the actual place below the temple mount where the refuse from the Temple was taken. Indeed, in that place, it could be literally said that "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".

Now, presuming you accept these as traditional idioms which the Apostles used, why must it be necessary to take such idiomatic refences to earthly things and insist that they have one for one counter parts in the spiritual relms. Isn't it the point of an idiom to use it as an illustration of a greater principle, without regard to whether the idiom precisely applies to the actual point being made? Isn't an idiom primarily a common point of reference that is used as a tool to gain agreement on a particular point?

[pneuma]

One is clearly defined by Scripture as an AGE (1,000 yrs.) while the other is an "aionios' ETERNAL...and as I have shown before - it has a DETERMINATE beginning but is INFINITE in duration.

Yet in order to get that understanding you have to make up your own definition of eternal.

To suggest, that Jesus ONLY offered His SALVATION to us for 1,000 years is both laughable and ludicrous. Therefore, if we subscribe to this notion of an AGE, respective of Jn. 3:16 then we must also admit that at the ending of the 1,000 years AGE, then we Born Again Believers shall ALL likewise PERISH - because that is exactly what Jn. 3:16 declares we are SAVED from.

You really need to search out the Hebrew and Greek meaning to words and not rely so much on the English translation of the words.

The Greek word for perish is apollumi. It is the same word used here.

But go rather to the lost/apollumi sheep of the house of Israel.

And here

For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost/apollumi

And here

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost/apollumi, and is found. And they began to be merry.


Just because one has perished/apollumi does not mean that one cannot be saved, for Jesus came to seek and save those that perish/apollumi.

Whether you realise it or not Barney when you were dead in trespasses and sin you were lost/apollumi so if perish means never ending as you want it to then you can never be saved.

To say one who has perished cannot be saved is to say Jesus failed miserably as it was to those who were lost/apollumi that He came to seek and to save.

According to your understanding Jesus can never save anyone as perish to you means without end.

[myth-one.com]

In Mark 9:43-44, et al, we find Scriptures spoken by Jesus Himself, of an ETERNAL HELL, and the LOST who will enter it, in direct reference to a condition where THEIR (personal pronoun) WORM dieth not. While, the thoughts of an Eternal Hell to many of today's Biblical Scholars and Theologians is rapidly becoming 'politically incorrect', the Word of God begs to differ with them nonetheless.

Mark 9:43 (KJV)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:44 (KJV)
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

To this end, the premise of this article is NOT to prove an Eternal HELL, which is self evident from simple Scriptural understanding, but rather to shed light on the Eternal WORM that will exist in this unimaginable place of Eternal Punishment.

Hi Barney, not sure if anyone has mentioned the following:

One stage of decaying bodies is worms or magots. There are two circumstances (to my knowledge) under which dead bodies do not result in worms or magots. Extreme cold (freezing the body) or extreme heat (cremation).

Those human nonbelievers cast into hell quickly perish and their remains are instantly cremated. So their worms never liveth.

Since "their" worms never liveth, they likewise never dieth.

[barney]

Shalom bluethread,

Thank you for your kind response.

Respective of your suggestion that when Jesus declared, "Where Their Worm Dieth Not and the Fire is NOT Quenched"- that it is most likely an ancient Apostolic Jewish IDIOM, - I have been unable to find ANY corroborating historical Jewish literature or publications, regarding this particular statement, that supports, prior to Jesus' declaration itself, your notion of this actually being an IDIOSYNCRATIC expression, and therefore not to be construded as literal.

Moreover, this said expression is linked by the greek 'kai' (AND) conjunction, in Jesus' continued discourse on this matter, to literal causes and consequences that can result in one literally going to HELL. (Mk. 9:44-48, et. al.)

Therefore, I fail to find Scriptural reason to support the preponderance that Jesus was speaking in IDIOMATIC terms and not literal.

Hope this helps.

barney

[barney]

Shalom myth-one,

Thank you for your kind response.

If I understand you correctly - you are implying that the UNBELIEVER will QUICKLY PERISH in Hell - but the WORMS of their REMAINS will NOT die EVER.

Here is what I find disconcerting and illogical respective of this implied notion...

Why would God "quickly" destroy the SINNER in Hell - but PUNISH the WORMS of SINNER'S remains ETERNALLY?

Was Hell actually designed and created by God to ETERNALLY PUNISH the SINNER for his/her Sins, or was it literally created to ETERNALLY PUNISH the WORMS of the Sinners remains?

Hope this helps.

barney

[myth-one.com]

If I understand you correctly - you are implying that the UNBELIEVER will QUICKLY PERISH in Hell - but the WORMS of their REMAINS will NOT die EVER.

You didn't understand at all.

If someone is cast alive into fire and brimstone, there worms will never live.

Worms and magots exist in rotting corpses.

Immediately cremated bodies should result in no worms.

Something which is never alive, can never die!

Those cast into the lake of fire and any bacterial or other life forms on them will cease to exist at that time. There are no living remains. They revert to chemical elements or dust which may become something more useful.

Why would God "quickly" destroy the SINNER in Hell - but PUNISH the WORMS of SINNER'S remains ETERNALLY?

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!

[barney]

Shalom myth-one,

Thank you for your kind response.

Seeing that MANY peoples will have died from the time of Adam and Eve to the literal futuristic event of the Great White Throne Judgment, and the UNBELIEVERS will NOT see Eternal Life with God and Christ, but will be cast into the PERPETUAL Lake of Fire (the SECOND DEATH)...where then do you suggest that those BODIES in which they will have then, at their casting into the Lake of Fire by God's angels, actually comes from...seeing that their NATURAL bodies in which they formerly had, will have long sense suffered the violent natural processes of ROT, MAGOTS, and DECAY - subsequent to their FIRST DEATH?

barney

[myth-one.com]

Seeing that MANY peoples will have died from the time of Adam and Eve to the literal futuristic event of the Great White Throne Judgment, and the UNBELIEVERS will NOT see Eternal Life with God and Christ, but will be cast into the PERPETUAL Lake of Fire (the SECOND DEATH)...where then do you suggest that those BODIES in which they will have then, at their casting into the Lake of Fire by God's angels, actually comes from...seeing that their NATURAL bodies in which they formerly had, will have long sense suffered the violent natural processes of ROT, MAGOTS, and DECAY - subsequent to their FIRST DEATH?

Good question. The answer will be a little lengthy:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (I Corinthians 15:22)

All humans who ever lived will be made alive again, or resurrected. All includes both believers and nonbelievers! However, all will not be resurrected at the same time. There will be an order to the resurrections:

But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:23)

So Jesus will be resurrected first, and that has already occurred. The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which "they that are Christ's" will be resurrected. "They that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection for all Christians occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming."

The Second Coming is described in Revelation chapter nineteen:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Revelation 19:11-13)

The Word became flesh as Jesus and dwelt among us:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... (John 1:14)

Therefore, the deity named "The Word of God" coming from heaven on a white horse represents Jesus Christ. This is His Second Coming to the earth! At His Second Coming, all Christians are to be resurrected as spiritual bodies and reign with Jesus for a thousand years. The first mass resurrection for mankind is described only a few verses away from this description of the Second Coming:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:4-5)

All dead Christians are resurrected at this first mass resurrection. Christians who are alive on the earth when Jesus returns will be born again as spirits and meet Him in the air:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

At this point after the first mass resurrection, all mankind who died as Christians along with Christians who were alive at the Second Coming have been born again as spiritual beings. They will now enjoy the millennium Sabbath with Jesus:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

The second resurrection for man occurs after the millennium. The only portion of mankind remaining in their graves are the nonbelievers. Every single human either believes in Jesus as his Savior, or does not believe in Jesus as his Savior. There are only two groups. All who died believing in Jesus were resurrected during the first mass resurrection. Therefore, all remaining to be resurrected are nonbelievers. Since none of these nonbelievers have their names written in the book of life as heirs to eternal life, they will all be resurrected as mortal human beings:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

After the judgment of those resurrected in the second mass resurrection, whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Be aware that absolutely none of those resurrected at the second mass resurrection had their names written in the book of life when resurrected! Every single human, dead or alive, with their names written in the book of life were born again as spirits at the first mass resurrection! So why are they checking the book again? Something obviously occurred since these nonbelievers were resurrected to cause the book of life to be modified. Otherwise, there would be no reason to check the book again for their names. What happened?

Would God raise these people again as physical bodies only to humiliate them during judgment before casting them into the lake of fire? Why bother raising them from the dead only to inflict another painful physical death upon them? This flies in the face of "God is love." If the nonbelievers are being resurrected to be humiliated by judgment before being killed a second time, why not simply allow them to remain dead?

The fact is that every nonbeliever will make their choice after understanding what the two possible choices are. If they were not given a choice on earth prior to their death, they will be given their choice after their resurrection as mortal humans in the second mass resurrection. From the New International Version of The Holy Bible:

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. (I Peter 4:5)

Their choice will be based on hearing the true gospel message for the first time. It will be preached at this time in the entire world, before the end of the age of man can occur:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

These dead nonbelievers will regain consciousness upon being resurrected from the dead as humans once again at the second resurrection. At that time, they will be taught the good news of the scriptures and may accept Jesus as their Savior and gain everlasting spiritual life with God at that time! It will be the first opportunity for many of them.

Those who accept Jesus as their Savior have their names written in the Book of Life. That's why the book is checked again after the judgment. Also notice that Christians do not face judgment. Why? Because their is nothing to judge them against. The wages for their sins was paid by Jesus. Thus, they are resurrected as Spirits with clean records.

Those nonbelievers resurrected as humans at the second resurrection who do not accept Jesus as their Savior are not saved from the second death:

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14-15)

These are the living human bodies which are cast into and quickly perish in the lake of fire, and whose "worms" never perish because they never lived.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

=============================================================================
On an aside: Isn't a quick cremation part of the burial procedure for other non-Christian faiths? And isn't this procedure to prevent rotting and magots, etc? This isn't my area of expertise -- perhaps someone knows.

[barney]

Shalom myth-one,

Thank you for your kind and detailed response.

First and foremost - what you are teaching is SALVATION subsequent to the mortal FIRST DEATH, for those SINNERS who made the FREE-WILL conscious CHOICE to REJECT Jesus' ATONEMENT and His work of the Cross, as well as, Salvation for those SINNERS who you suggest had never been given the OPPORTUNITY to even hear of God's Plan of Salvation in Yeshua Jesus.

Be that as it may - I will address this suggested NONSENSE latter...but for now I will continue with our dialogue regarding the RESURRECTED BODIES of Sinners.

Repeatedly you make the insisted claim that the BODIES of those SINNERS who are RESURRECTED in the SECOND RESURRECTION will be "HUMAN/MORTAL/NATURAL BODIES".

Those nonbelievers resurrected as humans at the second resurrection who do not accept Jesus as their Savior are not saved from the second death: (emphasis added)

To this end, PLEASE be so kind as to post specific Scriptural PROOF of your claim. Moreover when doing so, DO NOT speculate, imply, infer, nor assume - but rather state specific Scriptures where the WORD of God specifically declares that the 2nd. RESURRECTION Bodies of LOST Sinners, will indeed be of HUMAN/MORTAL/NATURAL construct and design.

PLEASE - NOT your IMO (in my opinion) but actual Scriptural PROOF of you insisted CLAIM that the Second RESURRECTED Sinners will be MORTALS.

barney