Non-believers to BURN IN HELL!

[JoeyKnothead]

Some'll say that if you reject Bible tales, you'll burn in Hell.

For debate:
Please offer some means to confirm the veracity of the claim.

If the claim can't be shown to be true and factual, is it uncivil, or perhaps more importantly morally right to present such an argument in order to encourage religious belief?

Why might a response of "Go to Hell" be inappropriate in the face of such a threat to one's well-being, while the threat itself may receive a pass?

[Oldfarmhouse]

...Looks to me like it means folks are ending up in Hell...What does it mean to "educated Christians"?...

Among other things, it means that it may be possible to throw ones life away--to irrevocably turn oneself against love and other-directed concern, which are the very things that make life worth living.

As for the "unbelieving" part, that in no way implies that giving mere lip service to this or that proposition will suffice in turning the corner against death and toward life. It means that we must find something and someone to believe in, someone to pattern our life on, someone like God who gave up the privilege of deity for the sake of genuine solidarity with us. If the life and example and teaching of Jesus is not the example on which we base our lives, if the hope of the resurrection life is not our hope, then the chance of wasting our lives (both here and hereafter) is more real than it needs to be.

Perhaps it's just me but I see this as just some sugar-coated dogmatic fundamentalism. Pull of the pretty wrapping paper and ribbons and you get something like -- If you are not a Christian then you are a piece of crap.

[EduChris]

...But it doesn't say that, does it?...It says unbelievers, among others, are heading to a lake of fire and brimstone...you've done nothing to show the referenced passage means anything other that what is written...

The fundamentalist mindset has great difficulty with the concept of literary genre; but for those who are capable of understanding this concept, it has been pointed out often on this forum that the Book of Revalation in the New Testament exemplifies a special literary genre known as "apocalyptic." This genre is not meant to be taken literally; rather, it creates sequences of impressionistic portraits designed to create a mood. The closest thing to this type of genre we have today would probably be the MTV music video. The furthest thing from it would be sober, straightforward essay or article.

[Oldfarmhouse]

Bill O'Reilly fancied himself an astronaut. He planned his mission for years with his telescope, t-square, and his great intellect. After he was satisfied with his proposal he presented it to NASA. He told them, "It's the boldest space exploration yet -- I plan to fly to the sun!" The folks at NASA told him that was ridiculous and that such an attempt would result in being fried to s crisp long before reaching the sun.

"I thought this through," said Bill "and I've got that problem all worked out -- I'm going to make the trip at night!"

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 62:

...But it doesn't say that, does it?...It says unbelievers, among others, are heading to a lake of fire and brimstone...you've done nothing to show the referenced passage means anything other that what is written...

The fundamentalist mindset has great difficulty with the concept of literary genre; but for those who are capable of understanding this concept, it has been pointed out often on this forum that the Book of Revalation in the New Testament exemplifies a special literary genre known as "apocalyptic."

I don't doubt there's many who think the passage in question is meant to be "apocalyptic".

This genre is not meant to be taken literally; rather, it creates sequences of impressionistic portraits designed to create a mood. The closest thing to this type of genre we have today would probably be the MTV music video. The furthest thing from it would be sober, straightforward essay or article.

There's another great big bunch that take it literally.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

...Does EduChris deny that Christians have said or implied that non-believers will burn in Hell?...

When you present a caricature of Christian theology, as it is bandied about in popular discourse among the uneducated of Christianity and non-Christianity alike, as though it had anything to do with the views of educated Christians, then you are presenting a strawman argument.

I see that you are still incorrectly applying the term "strawman argument." This is not a "characature" of Christian theology, this is a common form of Christian theology. This thread is clearly not directed at the "educated Christians" who do not believe in such things. It is clearly and obviously directed at the Christians who actually do believe such things. If the OP claimed that "educated Christians" believed this, then it would be a strawman argument. The OP, however, claims no such thing. Thus, it is in no way a strawman argument.

Please, take some time to review what a strawman argument actually is and stop misapplying the term like this.

[Zetesis Apistia]

So Hell is located in the sun?

Hey that's a thought. Wonder why NASA hasn't went on an expedition there. I mean they could go at night.

My first response here was that nobody could really be this ignorant and that this is a gag answer, meant to be funny and not meant to be taken seriously. And as I was in the process of chuckling to myself I suddenly remembered a Christian lady who once told me that clearly God must exist, because every year the rain falls, and yet the whole world is not covered in water. If it's possible for a person to be so ignorant of the actual working of the universe as to manage to suppose that God is required to regulate the amount of water on the earth then it is certainly possible for another person to genuinely suppose that it would be easier to go to the sun at night, when it would clearly be cooler.

I have a feeling that the reference to heat was a metaphor and when it was missed the sun thing was satirical. Zetesis please put me out of my misery and say it is so.

I guess I am guilty of sarcasm here. I was responding in like manner. Got caught up in the moment.

[Zetesis Apistia]

When you can actually support your contentions with something other'n opinion, we'd sure 'preciate it.

So when you say there is no God is that speculation or do you have some evidence to support your statement?

So we see, Zetesis Apistia is incapable of showing he speaks truth regarding there being "souls", much less that they'd be suffering.

Does science support your atheism?

I don't know. Do you?

I have an idea

Then why don't you tell us where this heat comes from, Einy.

For one I wasn't talking about external heat sources. I was talking about that heat in the soul.

I can only conclude you are joking.

Actually I plagiarized that from a blond joke.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 67:

When you can actually support your contentions with something other'n opinion, we'd sure 'preciate it.

So when you say there is no God is that speculation or do you have some evidence to support your statement?

Please link to and quote verbatim where I've presented such within this thread. Elsewise, I'll consider this an effort to confuse the issue. You made claims. I challenged them. You admitted your's was a position of faith, implying no such evidence for your challenged claims would be forthcoming.

I will not be dragged into debating claims I've not made.

So we see, Zetesis Apistia is incapable of showing he speaks truth regarding there being "souls", much less that they'd be suffering.

Does science support your atheism?

Please link to and quote verbatim where I've made such an assertion within this thread. Otherwise I can only conclude that, like the above example, you're trying to confuse the issue.

I will not be dragged into debating claims I've not made.

>on how chemical imbalances within the brain come about<
I don't know. Do you?

I have an idea

I propose that if you actually knew, and could support such, you'd be champing at the bit to tell us.

Then why don't you tell us where this heat comes from, Einy.

For one I wasn't talking about external heat sources. I was talking about that heat in the soul.

Having previously shown you can't show you speak truth regarding there being souls, how might'n we know there's heat in 'em?

I can only conclude you are joking.

Actually I plagiarized that from a blond joke.

I can dig it, here's to the funny.

[Confused]

From Post 51:

Bible Gateway, KJV
Revelations 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

...Does EduChris deny the above passage is in the Bible?...

The question is not, "Is it in the Bible?"; rather, the question is, "Given the full scope of Scripture, and given the history and trajectory of biblical study and interpretation, in combination with other sources such as reason, personal life experience, and the best consensus of other contemporary global Christian thinkers, what does this passage mean?"

Looks to me like it means folks are ending up in Hell.

What does it mean to "educated Christians"?

...Are the only "educated Christians" those who hold EduChris' beliefs?

No, unfortunately I did not write the books I listed in the previous post. But they are used in many nationally and globally accredited Christian seminaries and graduate schools, so I am not some sort of oddball maverick within the global Christian Church.

When is believing some dude hopped up after being dead for three days no longer "oddball"?

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It would appear as if you are calling anyone who is Christian an "oddball", specifically EuduChris. This was reported and not only can be construed as a personal attack but also quite uncivil. A central Christian Tenet is that Jesus rose after three days. Please try to remain civil. You have already been issued a formal warning. Any further infractions will lead to a probation vote.
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[TheJackelantern]

I was not taking aim at that particular target. (Today anyway Angel ) Just showing that according to the Gospels earning eternal life does not require anything more than honestly living a moral and charitable moral life.

Someone should have told Jesus that.. I often get arguments like this, or ones like the following:

On my journey, I decided that the most important lesson of the bible is that we are to love one another, and that is not a lesson that is exclusive to the bible

Yeah because that is what this message is all about:

Deuteronomy 17

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Lev: 24:16

16And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

Deut: 13:13 -18

13that certain(R)worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, 14then you shall inquire and make search and ask(S) diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction,[c] all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and(T) burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It shall be a(U) heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17(V) None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand,(W) that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you,(X) as he swore to your fathers, 18if you obey the voice of the LORD your God,(Y) keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the LORD your God.

* And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.

Just making these up is psychologically disturbing:

Exodus 31:15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

And yes, God doesn't mind killing children:

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Yes, THOSE EVIL CHILDREN! .. Oh, it's repeated here for you to!:

Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

But let's do better and evaluate this:

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

Reference the above to this:

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

Yes, so much love teaching in the bible. Here's Jesus teaching his own love!:

* Mark 16:15-16 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned to hell.

* Matthew 10:35-37 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

* Luke 14:26 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

* Matthew 10:34 34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

And the hate is so not there right?:

* (Deu 7:26) And you shall not bring an abomination into your house, lest you be a cursed thing like it. You shall utterly hate it, and you shall utterly despise it. For it is a cursed thing.

* (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB) They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with their hearts and souls; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

It's a book that does incite hate, murder, genocide, killing of women and children, killing of gays and lesbians, and the killing of non-believers. It's a book that worships a Deity that has supposedly committed Genocide and infanticide because it was "sorry", and that all it's creations are were magically unclean and abominations. I've asked a Christian this about killing babies, kittens, an puppies in reference to infanticide:

Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, "I will wipe this human race I have created from the face of the earth. Yes, and I will destroy every living thing--all the people, the large animals, the small animals that scurry along the ground, and even the birds of the sky. I am sorry I ever made them."

Genesis 6:17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.

Genesis 7:4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.

Genesis 7:21 Every living thing that moved on the earth perished--birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.

Genesis 7:22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.

(Warning: Don't actually do the following):

Get a Camera and go record yourself drowning baby bunnies, kittens, puppies, or a your newborn infants while exclaiming how they are an abomination, unclean, and how you are sorry for ever having them. Put it on youtube and then comeback to me on how that rationally, morally, and ethically works out for you. Do you have enough love to drown a baby bunny? Maybe this one?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSFB2ytWJLQ

You can than place yourself right up there with the GI's that killed a puppy!.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdyN2_GJmP8


And in case anyone needs to know what a Narcasisistic Ego maniac is, you can get a free demonstration in the bible:

* Luke 14:26 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

That is a clear case of NPD..:

Narcissism is a term with a wide range of meanings, depending on whether it is used to describe a central concept of psychoanalytic theory, a mental illness, a social or cultural problem, or simply a personality trait. Except in the sense of primary narcissism or healthy self-love, "narcissism" usually is used to describe some kind of problem in a person or group's relationships with self and others. In everyday speech, "narcissism" often means inflated self-importance, egoism, vanity, conceit, or simple selfishness. Applied to a social group, it is sometimes used to denote elitism or an indifference to the plight of others. In psychology, the term is used to describe both normal self-love and unhealthy self-absorption due to a disturbance in the sense of self.