For debate:AquinasD wrote: God created the world.
I challenge folks to show the above claim is true.
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For debate:AquinasD wrote: God created the world.
Notice the opposing viewpoint is "blurred", "incoherent", "unarticulated". I contend such terms could only come about because one has a lack of knowledge regarding the proposition in question - whether claimant or challenger. I propose such is based on a lack of confirmable knowledge - right or wrong. Thus, the god concept is introduced.EduChris wrote: The interpretive framework provided by non-theistic lenses very often are blurred, incoherent, and/or unarticulated.
Our "inner mental life is just an illusion".EduChris wrote: But to the extent that the non-theistic interpretive framework is examined, to the extent that its implications are followed through to their logical conclusions, it turns out that our inner mental life is just an illusion.
I'd prefer to think the combination thereof indicates "here we are", but understand I may sitting here doing anything but.EduChris wrote: We really don't have minds at all--we just imagine we do, when in fact we are nothing more than the absurd frothings of quarks and gluons which no one has seen or ever can see, within one of a multitude of other universes which no one has seen or ever can see.
Typical theistic slander. Notice the unsupported implication that only 'with god' can we access our "inner mental lives". You ever wake up and think you weren't you - barring drugs and such, and on that, I'm here to tell ya I can commiserate.EduChris wrote: It depends on what you mean by "evidenced." If you mean empirical observation, then strictly speaking we can't observe the infinity of other universes which are demanded by non-theism, given current scientific knowledge. Similarly, we can't empirically observe God. So logically, all we can do is examine each position and see where it leads. Non-theism leads to the evaporation of the only thing to which we have direct and unmediated access: our inner mental lives.
Yet 'theism' is utterly incapable of showing the god in question is anything other than illusory.EduChris wrote: Theism, by contrasts, leads to the conclusion that our minds are not illusory, but real.
I agree with bjs's statement that nobody can completely prove anything.JoeyKnothead wrote:From Post 12 here:
For debate:AquinasD wrote: God created the world.
I challenge folks to show the above claim is true.
Yet your following words indicate you ain't too upset about the claims presented in the OP being expressed.spayne wrote: I agree with bjs's statement that nobody can completely prove anything.
Can we ever have a discussion with Christians that doesn't draw attention away from the claim being challenged?spayne wrote: This is no different than saying that because of the law of gravity, the universe created itself from nothing, as Mr Hawking has recently stated. That's a pretty bold statement.
While being profoundly incapable of showing the God in question exists to even be worshiped.spayne wrote: Christians will put their faith in God.
There! Right there!spayne wrote: Those who think science provides all the answers will support things like M-theory.
It would seem that some of 'em's worldview is "to heck with showing I speak truth, I'm just gonna preach on with the best of 'em".spayne wrote: It's all about your worldview, and all worldviews are defined by specific beliefs that one holds to be true.
Yeah, that clears it upspayne wrote: And beliefs are both evidence based and faith based, regardless of whether you believe in God or not.
...Exactly why is it that one can "know" things if they examine them through a theistic lens...
I don't think it needs a God for us to know our thoughts are real.The interpretive framework provided by the theistic lens justifies our intuitive sense that our inner mental life is real and not merely an illusion.
nejisan wrote:...Yet through the lens of the opposing worldview, well, nothing?...
. Instead of just calling your opponent names, actually make an argument.The interpretive framework provided by non-theistic lenses very often are blurred, incoherent, and/or unarticulated
. Justify your false claim with an argument.But to the extent that the non-theistic interpretive framework is examined, to the extent that its implications are followed through to their logical conclusions, it turns out that our inner mental life is just an illusion
Whose bizarre worldview is this? Not mine, a non-theist.We really don't have minds at all--we just imagine we do, when in fact we are nothing more than the absurd frothings of quarks and gluons which no one has seen or ever can see, within one of a multitude of other universes which no one has seen or ever can see.
nejisan wrote:...when claims are made they should be supported. If they can't be shown to be at least evidenced they should be retracted.
. Make an argument. You keep telling us what we think, without showing us that we actually think it. I don't think there are an infinity of universes, and I am an atheist.It depends on what you mean by "evidenced." If you mean empirical observation, then strictly speaking we can't observe the infinity of other universes which are demanded by non-theism, given current scientific knowledge
Or any measurable effect of God.Similarly, we can't empirically observe God.
So you don't think you need to take reality into account at all?So logically, all we can do is examine each position and see where it leads.
so you keep saying. You have yet to support your bogus claims with a shred of argument, evidence, logic or truth.Non-theism leads to the evaporation of the only thing to which we have direct and unmediated access: our inner mental lives. Theism, by contrasts, leads to the conclusion that our minds are not illusory, but real.
...I'm an atheist, and I don't believe my thoughts are an illusory froth.
First, you haven't shown this to be the case. You keep telling us what atheists believe, rather than asking us.Well, it sounds like atheists can't all agree on whether their inner mental lives are real or not.
First, you haven't shown this to be the case. Second, even if it is, whether thoughts are "real," whatever that means, is not a specific of non-theism. Unlike theists, all atheists agree on their atheism. None of us thinks there is a God. I find that no two theists agree on the specifics of the God that supposedly exists, so apparently, according to you, they must be wrong.Since atheists have multiple views on the specifics of their respective non-theisms,
Since your argument is based on false premises, it is not useful in establishing your point. On the contrary, there is far more disagreement among the world's theists about the nature, identity, number and name of God than there is among atheists, who all agree there are exactly zero of them. That is the only core of non-theism.does it thereby follow that they must be wrong regarding the common core of their respective non-theisms?
There are not plural non-theisms. Atheists disagree on everything under the sun, but 100% of them agree on the the common core of their non-theism, which is that there is no God. Theists cannot make the same claim.Please note: if you argue that non-theists can disagree on the specifics without thereby vitiating the common core of their non-theisms, then you are admitting that theists might be correct in the essential elements (accepted in common by all of today's major world theisms) despite any disagreement regarding specific matters.
again, don't just make an assertion; make an argument. Explain why your assertion is correct.spayne wrote:I agree with bjs's statement that nobody can completely prove anything.JoeyKnothead wrote:From Post 12 here:
For debate:AquinasD wrote: God created the world.
I challenge folks to show the above claim is true.
This is no different than saying that because of the law of gravity, the universe created itself from nothing, as Mr Hawking has recently stated. That's a pretty bold statement. Christians will put their faith in God. Those who think science provides all the answers will support things like M-theory.
It's all about your worldview, and all worldviews are defined by specific beliefs that one holds to be true. And beliefs are both evidence based and faith based, regardless of whether you believe in God or not.
My argument is that this is not a question about evidence to support a claim. It's a question about worldview. To the Christian (or other theist), evidence that God created the world is everywhere. For the nonbeliever it's all rubbish. Who's correct? And it doesn't take long perusing this board before one sees that nonbelievers are very quick to refute pretty much any of the evidence for God that is put forth.Autodidact wrote:again, don't just make an assertion; make an argument. Explain why your assertion is correct.spayne wrote:I agree with bjs's statement that nobody can completely prove anything.JoeyKnothead wrote:From Post 12 here:
For debate:AquinasD wrote: God created the world.
I challenge folks to show the above claim is true.
This is no different than saying that because of the law of gravity, the universe created itself from nothing, as Mr Hawking has recently stated. That's a pretty bold statement. Christians will put their faith in God. Those who think science provides all the answers will support things like M-theory.
It's all about your worldview, and all worldviews are defined by specific beliefs that one holds to be true. And beliefs are both evidence based and faith based, regardless of whether you believe in God or not.