Minimum Attributes of God

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ThatGirlAgain
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Minimum Attributes of God

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Flail wrote:Definitions aside, to me you have developed a supposition that there are no supernatural entities due to the fact that we have no evidence of any such beings; and because all that have been proposed so far by man are nonsensical; which is a much more reasonable position than adopting a superstition like Christianity. I am merely taking these ideas one step further to contend that since we really have no idea what a 'God' would entail, we have no basis upon which to claim 'God(s)' doesn't exist. Can you define this entity that you claim does not exist?
Does zxcvbnm exist? Since we have “no idea� what zxcvbnm means we cannot make a claim either way. Do we really have NO idea what God(s) means? If that is the case then there is no more reason to talk about God(s) than there is to talk about zxcvbnm. Conversation over.

But if there is some idea of what is meant by God(s), then we have a basis for conversation. Is there in fact anything we can say about God(s)?

I imagine there is something to be said. Many people throw the term around and seem to think it means something. Is there a bare minimum of meaning that is needed to merit the label God? Is it perhaps necessary to have several different meanings? For example, the Christian God is generally given the attribute of ‘Creator of the Universe’ but Apollo is not. Perhaps we should disregard gods, with a small ‘g’, like Apollo?

Debate question: What is the bare minimum of attributes that is required to deserve the label God?
Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

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ThatGirlAgain
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Re: Minimum Attributes of God

Post #61

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EduChris wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote:...Do those who claim atheism need to "keep pace with theistic discourse" before they can not believe? I might see an argument being made for a strong atheist needing to do this before actively denying the existence of a deity. But in general if the idea of God is highly involved it would seem that arguments demonstrating the existence of God should be made in plain terms before a weak atheist could be criticized...
I used terms that are plain enough; I explained my terms; and I showed why more simplistic definitions are inadequate. What I cannot do is supply everyone on the Internet with the requisite smarts and/or inclination to follow even a simple argument, much less a more complex and nuanced argument.
So it is acceptable for those not of the highest intelligence or deepest education to be atheists because the arguments for the existence of God are too hard to follow? Paul claimed it was obvious.
EduChris wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote:...Quantum mechanics was mentioned elsewhere in this thread. For one to have the credentials to actively deny its validity one must learn something about it. But to passively lack belief in QM is acceptable if one knows little about the subject...
The vast majority of non-theists do not offer their own personal laziness as a reason for their non-theism; rather, they claim to be more reasonable, rational, intelligent, inquisitive, skeptical, thoughtful, logical, intelligent, etc. If someone tells me, "I'm a non-theists because I'm a dummy," I will probably agree with him. But if she tells me, "I'm a non-theist because I'm more rational and learned than theists," then I will expect her to keep pace with contemporary theistic discourse.
Been there, done that. Remember?
EduChris wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote:...in the case of QM there are dramatic physical demonstrations of its validity, like most of the computer I am using at this moment. The intricacies of QM can reasonably be taken on faith exactly because the demonstrable consequences are so unexpected.
All scientific theories are underdetermined by the data. For every hypothesis given, there are always an infinite number of other hypotheses which explain the same set of data.
So there are an infinite number of possibilities that explain the apparent contingency of the world other than God? In the case of QM, exotic predictions were made that turned out to be dead on accurate and demonstrable in the real world. Can theology make such a claim?
Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

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EduChris
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Re: Minimum Attributes of God

Post #62

Post by EduChris »

ThatGirlAgain wrote:
EduChris wrote:...What I cannot do is supply everyone on the Internet with the requisite smarts and/or inclination to follow even a simple argument...
So it is acceptable for those not of the highest intelligence or deepest education to be atheists because the arguments for the existence of God are too hard to follow? Paul claimed it was obvious...
I agree with Paul; "God" is the obvious conclusion for any reasonably thoughtful person. But this in way no entails that everyone on the Internet is reasonably thoughtful, or that they will be be able (or willing) to follow even simple arguments.

ThatGirlAgain wrote:...Been there, done that. Remember?...
I was referring to Fuzzy Dunlop, who seems to think a good argument consists of, "I can't possibly understand what is meant by the terms contingent, or causal, or arbitrary, or efficacious."

ThatGirlAgain wrote:...So there are an infinite number of possibilities that explain the apparent contingency of the world other than God?...
Well, you certainly have availed yourself of an infinite number of possibilities with the invocation of your omniverse. Logically, however, that rules out volition and therefore anyone who accepts his or her direct, unmediated sense of volition will reject your infinitude of "everything that is possible, is--except that volition is impossible."

ThatGirlAgain wrote:...In the case of QM, exotic predictions were made that turned out to be dead on accurate and demonstrable in the real world. Can theology make such a claim?
Per theism, God is that which ultimately accounts for our ability to formulate hypothesis, to test them, and to determine the success or failure of such tests.

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Re: Minimum Attributes of God

Post #63

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EduChris wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote:
EduChris wrote:...What I cannot do is supply everyone on the Internet with the requisite smarts and/or inclination to follow even a simple argument...
So it is acceptable for those not of the highest intelligence or deepest education to be atheists because the arguments for the existence of God are too hard to follow? Paul claimed it was obvious...
I agree with Paul; "God" is the obvious conclusion for any reasonably thoughtful person. But this in way no entails that everyone on the Internet is reasonably thoughtful, or that they will be able (or willing) to follow even simple arguments.
I have still boxed up (small apartment!) a text printed in the 1950s and used in Catholic seminaries as an introduction to Catholic theology. It is an analysis of Summa Theologica: Prima Pars. It was a gift from a priest for getting perfect scores in all Religion tests. :lol: The contents were immediately familiar because it was simply a more elaborate form of exactly what we had been taught in school. The essence of the complex can be made simple(r).
EduChris wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote:...Been there, done that. Remember?...
I was referring to Fuzzy Dunlop, who seems to think a good argument consists of, "I can't possibly understand what is meant by the terms contingent, or causal, or arbitrary, or efficacious."
Everything we see is because of something else. God is the ultimate Something Else. Does that work?
EduChris wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote:...So there are an infinite number of possibilities that explain the apparent contingency of the world other than God?...
Well, you certainly have availed yourself of an infinite number of possibilities with the invocation of your omniverse. Logically, however, that rules out volition and therefore anyone who accepts his or her direct, unmediated sense of volition will reject your infinitude of "everything that is possible, is--except that volition is impossible."
Volition is not impossible any more than music is impossible. But it is a complex event in the real world we sick a convenient label on. It is not a Cosmic Thing in its own right.
EduChris wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote:...In the case of QM, exotic predictions were made that turned out to be dead on accurate and demonstrable in the real world. Can theology make such a claim?
Per theism, God is that which ultimately accounts for our ability to formulate hypothesis, to test them, and to determine the success or failure of such tests.
God being the name being given to the non-contingent thing on which all contingent things depend. It is what comes next that we disagree on. And to return to the subject of this thread, it is what usually comes next that atheists do not believe in.
Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Minimum Attributes of God

Post #64

Post by EduChris »

ThatGirlAgain wrote:...God being the name being given to the non-contingent thing on which all contingent things depend. It is what comes next that we disagree on. And to return to the subject of this thread, it is what usually comes next that atheists do not believe in.
See here.

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Re: Minimum Attributes of God

Post #65

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EduChris wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote:...God being the name being given to the non-contingent thing on which all contingent things depend. It is what comes next that we disagree on. And to return to the subject of this thread, it is what usually comes next that atheists do not believe in.
See here.
Already answered that one.
Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

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Post #66

Post by TheJackelantern »

I agree with Paul; "God" is the obvious conclusion for any reasonably thoughtful person. But this in way no entails that everyone on the Internet is reasonably thoughtful, or that they will be be able (or willing) to follow even simple arguments.


This is a delusional argument.. It's like trying to say people that reject that are magically not reasonably "thoughtful" people. Dogmatic games of manipulation are not worth anything, and nor do they have any real value in an honest debate.

And Just so people can get a better understanding of omniscience, you can reference this simple demonstration:

The Omniscient Creating Knowledge Problem

There are arguments suggesting that the true cause of all causation can not be that which is slave to require a cause for it's own existence, or even to know of it's own existence. Thus it is said that one can not know how to create knowledge into existence because it is slave to require it as a base of inquiry to itself. This would then violate the premise of such an entity being omniscient since it can not know how to create knowledge. This is especially true when we understand that Knowledge is a body of information to which is the base of inquiry. It comes down to the principle of all principles that are seen to govern the base of all knowledge, and those that which require knowledge to be all that which they are. It's a question of where and how does something as complex as consciousness arise and exist. Here it is said that consciousness is a product to which can not exist without the base principles of causation, or to where consciousness is too complex and can not exist without cause. This comes from those exploring the idea that things to which are not conscious would require less cause to exist than those things to which are conscious. These principles have been argued in regards to information theory by those who see information itself as the cause and substance to everything. As referenced here: Information: The Material Physical Cause of Causation But lets further explore Omniscience below and give a prime example of why it's a delusional concept.:

Omniscience:
(pronounced /ɒmˈnɪsiəns/)[1] (or omniscient point-of-view in writing) is the capacity to know everything infinitely, or at least everything that can be known about a character including thoughts, feelings, life and the universe, etc. In monotheism, this ability is attributed to God. The God of the Bible is often referred to as "The Great I Am," among other similar names, which also incorporates his omnipresence and omnipotence. This concept is included in the Qur'an, where God is called "Al-'aleem". This is the infinite form of the verb "alema" which means to know. In Hinduism, 'omniscient' or 'all-knowing' (IAST: sarva-gya; Sanskrit: सर�वज�ञ )[2] 'omnipotent' or 'all-able' (IAST: sarva-samartha; Sanskrit: सर�व समर�थ) and 'omnipresent' or 'all-pervading' (IAST: sarva-vy�pi; Sanskrit: सर�व व�यापि) are attributes of divinity or spiritual 'perfections' (Sanskrit: siddhi). In latin, omnis means "all" and sciens means "knowing"
Omniscient Solipsism from a Designers Perspective:
(This as if you are the Omniscient Entity about to design and create something into existence. Such as a human being)
1. I'm Omniscient
2. I have an idea of something I want to build, construct, or make existent.
3. I know infinitely everything about this thing, person, or place infinitely before, and infinitely after I have constructed it, or even thought of it.
4. I would know in my design everything it will infinitely ever do.
5. I would know everything about my design's essence or being to the point of actually, and literally being that of my design (object, entity, thing, or place) in every infinitely literal way. (and we must pay close attention to the term infinite)
6. I would know all the above infinitely in the past, present, and future.
7. This thing I designed would only be able to do what it's was designed to do, and what I already infinitely know it will do, even to the point of it actually being literally me, and literally me doing all those things myself in every infinite way imaginable.
8. Even if I wanted to state that I am only omniscient to which is knowable, 5, 6 (past, and present), and 7 would all be knowable. Omniscience would translate to I, the said entity being existence itself in the best case possible, or everything that is existent in every infinite way.
Thus we can conclude such a concept of an Omniscient entity to be likely nothing more than a logical fallacy.. Especially if we want to retain our individualism :)

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Post #67

Post by TheJackelantern »

So I ask again, what attributes that are actually possible would people consider applicable to a GOD? Ones that don't self-refute?

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Re: Minimum Attributes of God

Post #68

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ThatGirlAgain wrote:
Filthy Tugboat wrote:I don't understand your distinction between "god(s)" and "God(s)". In an attempt to define the term "God" or "god" it seems you have arbitrarily added a definition, "creator of the universe". Why? This seems to defeat the very purpose of this thread.

I have absolutely no idea what constitutes a "God" or a "god", I think the term's inherent vagueness is one of religion's greatest strengths and certainly one of its greatest defenses.
By “god� I meant mythological characters such as in my example Apollo. Denying the existence of Apollo is not very helpful in a discussion of atheism since one would be hard pressed to find someone who actually believes in Apollo these days.
I actually disagree, those that do not believe in the Greek God Apollo make a great example of atheism, it is a demonstration that is understandable for almost every single person that exists.
ThatGirlAgain wrote:I was not adding “creator of the universe� to the definition. It was intended as an example of an attribute someone might suggest. EduChris took this idea to a more sophisticated level.
He may have taken the idea to a "sophisticated level" but only so far as Christian or monotheistic thought can go. I find taking the debate this far defeats the purpose of the discussion at hand and focuses too much on monotheism and even Christianity. The definition of God(s) or god(s) should not be reduced to monotheistic views with monotheistic assumptions. The definition that is being focused on here is faulty for many religious perspectives.
ThatGirlAgain wrote:I see your point about not defining God. That underscores the “other than intellectual� aspects of religion, namely the emotional and psychological ones that enable ‘belief’ without necessarily ‘knowing’.
I don't see why views that do not follow the definition given by Educhris should be considered, "other than intellectual aspects of religion". Perhaps you could elaborate why you consider them as such and why others should consider them the same way.
Religion feels to me a little like a Nigerian Prince scam. The "offer" is illegitimate, the "request" is unreasonable and the source is dubious, in fact, Nigeria doesn't even have a royal family.

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Post #69

Post by EduChris »

TheJackelantern wrote:...we can conclude such a concept of an Omniscient entity to be likely nothing more than a logical fallacy...
Which is why I deliberately omitted "omniscience" from my definition, even in the face of certain non-theist's insisting that I include it.

Non-theists here seem to want to define God for theists; then they want to dictate how theists should defend the non-theist's God; and then non-theists want to imagine that they have accomplished something by defeating the God which theists did not define, did not argue for, and do not accept in the first place.

Strawman, anyone?

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Post #70

Post by TheJackelantern »

Which is why I deliberately omitted "omniscience" from my definition, even in the face of certain non-theist's insisting that I include it.
Exactly what attributes are you including.. Please make a list and I will respond.

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