My faith is hanging by a thread-are there sufficient answers

[sleepthroughthestatic]

This is literally the exact email I sent to my Christian philosophy teacher (I go to a very serious Christian high school). One of my comments about not wanting to discuss this with others has actually kept me from even posting on forums, but this is a debate forum...so I guess it's okay...I really need to start looking outward from myself. Just looking for additional input...thanks. If I get responses, I will probably question them...so be prepared, I'm not looking for a quick answer that gives me some vague hope. I want it to be able to sustain itself against criticisms and still hold water. Also, I'm not really looking for an atheist to come in here and say "this is what it feels like to be logical, it's always interested to see people cope with their shattered faith, etc etc". Please spare me that. And yes I realize the email probably sounds pathetic and idiotic to someone who hasn't been here, and will only use this as evidence to fuel their angst against religion...


"Hey, I decided I wanted to send an email. I find writing to be the more
clear way of communicating, and when dealing with such a profoundly
meaningful subject, I want to ensure both of us are saying what we want to
say--having time to think it through and communicate it in the manner that
we wish.

First, theres a few things I want to say. I dont want you to feel bad or
anything, like you caused me to stumble. Ive been having doubts for
literally years, but I always seem to bounce back based mostly on
emotion, vague answers, or practicality. I dont usually discuss these
doubts with anyone, because Im very afraid that I will ask questions,
people will not have the answers, and then I will cause them to stumble
and ultimately lose their faith. And, from a human standpoint, I think
Christianity is a very good thing that allows people to live with a
feeling of purpose and happiness (even if I dont necessarily believe it
to be divinely true). Even if it wasnt true, I wouldnt want to take that
away from someone. If it is true, I especially dont want to take that
away from them. So its generally a lose-lose situation. However, you have
obviously already thought about these things and I dont feel Im in
danger of messing up your life.

Also, don't be too alarmed. I'm not on the brink of going off the deep
end, I'm not going to start living like a depraved animal if I suddenly
lose my faith. I thoroughly buy into Christianity from a moral and
lifestyle perspective, and regardless of my personal belief in God, I will
continue to live my life the way that I see to be the correct way (moral,
compassionate, empathetic, etc--the way I've been raised, that is,
Christian). Nobody else even has a slight clue that I have any doubt, and
I consider this, obviously, confidential. I don't think, even if I
completely rejected Christianity, that I would ever even tell my
parents--it would be a selfish thing to do that would only serve to worry
and crush them.

I feel like I believe in Christianity with my heart, but less and less do
I believe it with my mind. Which makes for a very weak faith, one based on
works and fueled by self-aware delusion. So I really do need to work out
what I truly believe. But this is not just a small stumbling block, I've
had those. This is a culmination of stumbling blocks, and I've tripped so
many times that I'm starting to wonder why I keep getting back up. How
much should I have to work, rationalize, and conjure up reasons to believe
in God? Should not God have made it obvious, if He were real? I've read
the books. I've read Why I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist, I've
read books by Lee Strobel, I've done my homework. To end this long
introduction, I believe you mentioned in class, when discussing God's
sovereignty versus human free-will, that one must pick the one that best
fits the data (the data being the Bible of course). Well, you left out the
third option. That God is...imaginary. That seems to fit the data with
little contradiction. I cant be a true Christian as long I believe that
in the back of mind.

Now, this leads to current, primary issue.

Here is what is what the Bible states:


1. God knows absolutely everything, that is, was, ever will be.
2. God created literally everything.
3. If one does not meet Gods criteria (ie: accept Christ), you are
literally tortured forever.

When creating the universe, God knew man would fall. He had complete
knowledge that man would rebel, and billions of people would be RUTHLESSLY
TORTURED for ETERNITY as a result--every single nuance of his design for
Creation impacted the eternal destiny of people. But God created us
anyway. And why? Because he wanted to be loved? Worshiped? No one really
has a reason. And I cant think of a reason that would come anywhere near
justifying the ruthless, eternal torture of your own creation. Your own
creation that is in an environment in which they did not choose to be, an
environment where the outcome is already established, an environment in
which God setup the rules. Even if it is their choice to go to Hell
(which is questionable due to the Bible explicitly driving home the point
of Gods sovereignty), I do not see how it is justified. I do not want
rhetoric about how God gives us all a chance. Tell me, if you were about
to have a son, but you knew your son would go on to make bad decisions and
eventually end up burned and tormented for eternity, would you still go
ahead and have your son? No, you would do the loving thing and stop it
from happening. Anyone who didnt would be rightfully called an evil,
egotistical, psychopath. And that is the reality of the situation, there
is no way around it with Christian doctrine. Somewhere along the way, it
cannot be right. It completely contradicts the image of a benevolent,
loving God. And the kicker, all of this can be applied to Satan and his
fallen angels.

And then further problems pile on. God decides to literally wipe out the
Earth in an act of mass genocide, literally killing every person and
animal and living thing on the Earth barring one family and a collection
of animals. This could perhaps make sense if God simply didnt know what
was going to happen, but He did. And it is completely illogical. When God
was making the world, he knew if he set it up this way, that this would
happen, and he would have to do this. That makes no sense. And then, to
fix it all (which, was actually by design because he knew it would
happen), he decides to send his Son to be crucified and redeem us of our
sins. But if for some reason we decide we dont believe in it (and being
completely honest, there are a LOT of reasons to reject it), we are BURNED
ALIVE FOREVER. And thats not even taking into account that you dont even
believe we really have a choice to be saved, but rather all of us would
burn if God didnt arbitrarily decide which ones to save from the
deathtrap that he designed and put us in. The Bible says it is our very
nature to sin, we cannot help it, we are born into it--we have no chance
from the beginning unless youre one of the lucky few who wins the
salvation lottery when God drew numbers before he created humanity. Can
you honestly tell me where Im wrong here? Can you truthfully admit all of
this and still hold the belief that God is just and loving? Your analogy
that God is still just, like a police officer stopping only certain people
for speeding tickets does not hold up. For one, in this situation, the
police officer is the one who designed them to speed and are born with an
innate, unavoidable nature to speed. And yes, it is unjust if you only
punish some and not others for no reason. If both your children misbehave
and make the same mistake (that is, being a sinner), and you mercilessly
beat and torture one and give the other one a hug, yes, that is most
assuredly injustice. Youd probably have your children taken away from
you.

Its like, once I remove God from the equation, everything falls into
line. I realize the following can be rationalized, but if they dont have
to be, if the core of Christianity doesnt make sense then everything
becomes easy. Why is there evil? God isnt real. Why is there suffering?
God isnt real. Why doesnt God make his existence obvious? God isnt
real. Why does God appoint all authority, even authority that ends up
brutally murdering millions for no reason? God isnt real. Why are there
passages in the Old Testament that make God seem really bad? God is not
real.

I do not want rhetoric about us being the clay or a fool says in his
heart God there is no God and not having the right to question Gods
ways. It doesnt hold up. God apparently gave us a brain, I cannot be
faulted for using it. Im trying to determine if the Bible is actually
true, and going back to the Bible is circular logic. Surely God would not
expect me to delude myself in order to believe divine, life-saving truth.
My reasons to believe in God are hanging by a thread. My best evidence is
the experience of others. My parents, and others I genuinely trust, have
told me about experiences they swear actually happened, and if they did,
either had to have been God or extreme self-delusion. My parents claim to
have seen a fog in their bedroom while intense prayer, Ive heard
countless stories of extreme coincidences. But can I really base my faith
on the subjective, biased experiences of others? Im inclined to say no.
Ive never experienced God, despite all my efforts and sincere prayer to
do His will (I assure you it was not at all done with a selfish or
doubtful attitude). There are a few other interesting reasons, like
prophecies, but I havent researched it much and Id imagine most are
disputed, its worth looking into but it doesnt erase the bigger problems
Ive talked about above.

So thats my problem. I apologize if I wrote that a little bit heated, Im
just pretty frustrated. Its not like Ive never believed in God. I pretty
much always have, and Ive been, at points, absolutely devout, dedicating
my life and having a genuine love and desire to serve Him. These are not
doubts out of some ulterior motive, I dont want to go drink and
fornicate. It is genuine intellectual inquiry. The weird thing is, I still
want to go to church and youth group, and marry a nice Christian girl and
live a good Christian life, helping others. Maybe Ill just end up living
like one regardless, trying not to think about the utter hypocrisy and
absurdity that would be. If you see me praying or something, I hope you
dont think Im necessarily think Im a huge fake idiot, even if I am...my
opinions are subject to change (whether through logic or not)...I have
never come close to opening up like this about these kind of things to
anyone so Im a bit apprehensive..."

[jgh7]

Oh my goodness. I can't believe that you're in high school. That was a very well put together email. I would have believed some Christian scholar wrote that.

I'm not interested in trying to sway your faith one way or the other. In any case, I agree with your arguments and they're the same ones I could never reconcile with Christianity either.

What I'm worried about is how you said you would not tell your parents if you rejected Christianity. I mean this in no offensive way, but your struggles with regard to religion seem very similar to a gay person who is trying to keep their struggles away from their parents and society.

It's not good when you fear your own parents and society's judgments/reactions to your religious beliefs. You should not be ashamed of the questions you have and the doubt you experience. Your parents should be there for you, AND THEY SHOULD ACCEPT YOU AND LOVE YOU JUST THE SAME WHETHER YOU"RE CHRISTIAN OR NOT! If you've grown up in a completely strict Christian environment, then perhaps you think everyone will be very let down and disappointed in you for not being Christian. They will think less of you as a human being, etc. It is possible, but at the same time it is possible that people will be there to support you. Either way, I don't think it's healthy to continue trying to keep your doubts bottled up. If you don't feel comfortable opening up to anyone, I strongly suggest you see a psychologist and open up to them. They are only there to listen and help you deal with your problems.

I truly hope that you don't get overwhelmed by the judgment of others should they be hostile. Good luck. I admire your bravery in confronting your doubts in the pursuit of truth.

[Darias]

I want to share with you my personal "testimony" but I want you to know that I will be honest with you. Lying is a sin after all. But I'm not responsible for "leading you astray" or questioning your faith. Your faith is your choice and responsibility and here's my story take it or leave it. I just felt the need to reply because of how similar I once felt.

I was pretty much in the same boat for a while. The important thing is that you are indeed thinking about it rationally, the hard part, the frustrating part is trying to have a consistent world view that won't damn yourself or others to hell. I know the feeling. I lived it. I went through the pain of not only contemplating that but searching after God for peace and fulfillment -- but more-so for His love. My own search didn't produce the results I expected and it gave me a lot of emotional grief and mental anguish.

Here's the thing. I still consider myself a Christian. I have maintained the morals I was raised on my entire life. I like you plan on living the same way I always have -- following the greatest teachings of Christ (loving others, not judging others, giving, etc.)

If I hadn't been taught that God is a God of peace, patience, kindness, goodness, and self-control, I wouldn't have asked questions about the Old Testament. I won't go on about it because we both know the problem.

I'm not gonna give you simple answers here but there are varying degrees of belief between Christian fundamentalism and Atheism.

I don't consider myself an Atheist whatsoever, because it is just as logically indefensible as Theism is.

Up until a few months ago I was an Agnostic-Theist Christian. They believe that God may or may not exist based upon evidence and what they don't know -- yet they believe in God.

Today I'm an Agnostic Ignostic Apatheist Christian. I'm Agnostic because I do not know if there is a God or not. I cannot know based on evidence. I'm Ignostic because "God" means different things to different people, especially among Christians; until a proper definition of who he is and what he has done is laid out, it makes no sense to declare faith in or to deny the existence of said being. I've recently learned that I am an Apatheist because regardless of God's existence, the lack of evidence of his divine intervention makes the question of God irrelevant for my day to day life.

But I am not an Atheist and I never will be. I have no logical reason to.

Many of America's Founding Fathers were Deists. They didn't believe in divine intervention but they found meaning in the idea of a creator God. Many people do; I once did. Others were Christian Universalists who believed that Gods grace would overcome eternal punishment in the end.

My journey from fundamentalism and from questioning and trying to rationalize and understand things that did not add up was a transitional process that lasted for a few years.

I am not advocating that process, nor am I attempting to just say "stick with it."

What kept me believing and not questioning things for so long was the very occasional emotional experience which I deemed was from God, though not understanding how emotion comes from the brain.

It was only after several years of yearning, searching, pleading, begging, and groveling in private -- for God's love mercy, and even peace -- and after not getting any, did I really start to take the logical questions to heart.

I agree with you, a God who is supposedly omni-benevolent and all knowing would not have created the universe we have today.

But I understand that Evolution works on its own and that the Universe itself owes its existence to gravity. As to what came before idk. Does that mean a God doesn't exist? No. No reason to just claim what cannot be confirmed.

But yes, if I can offer you one reassurance. If God can't handle your questioning and honest concerns, idk who can.

I wish I could offer you some mental relief. Something to calm your "soul" - mind would be more accurate, but I digress.

But, yeah I told my mother as recently as a year ago that I had some questions about the doctrine of the Trinity and it made her cry. That hurt me, but I told her I had to be honest. Honesty is more important than fake lies and pretends. I wasn't going to continue to go to church and listen to what I didn't agree with (especially the bashing of gays etc). I had my standards and I felt it was immoral on my part.

I told her a few days ago about my Agnosticism and she didn't get emotionally distraught but both my mother and sister were irritated; they questioned the sincerity of my former beliefs and they claimed that I was thinking about it too much. Heck my sister said her ex-boyfriend struggled with the same moral questions about God and the Universe; her verdict "he knows too much for his own good." He also went to seminary and was well versed in Greek.

Now, seriously, if the truth has to be protected by fear of leading others astray and by ignoring the atrocities in the bible, then whats the substance in that truth?

That is why I have retired those questions, and my former fundamentalist beliefs.

My values have not dissipated. For all my relatives know I'm the same good ole' Christian young man.

When I first joined this forum, I did so out of anguish, just like you. I was afraid that I would loose my faith and I was overly defensive. I claimed that if I lost God, I would kill myself.

Of course, I later realized how offensive that was to others. I also came to find that I had more mental relief and less fear of doom and abandonment by God without my fundamentalist views.

I am much more sane and content than I was before.

It is important to understand that many believers do not have the same experiences as you or I. Their dogma is reaffirmed because of their emotional well-being and their contentedness in not asking questions.

For us, that's just not possible. We know too much.


However, what you do with that knowledge is up to you. Understand that there is no need for this either or: Atheist or Christian.

Also understand that you are not alone at all. I mean, I could have written your letter myself a few years ago.

My best advise is to stick around the forum. Hear people out. Explore the different view points and don't be afraid to question your beliefs no matter what they are. Don't be afraid to tell the truth about how you feel to your parents. If you don't want to that's fine. But at least you have an outlet here in the forums.

I'd say God bless you but I don't believe in divine intervention so...

*hugs*

You'll be ok.

[MyReality]

I will just reiterate with the above posters and say that hiding your true feelings on this topic is not a good idea. Bottled up emotions have a tendency to build negatively.

Now i was a Lutheran until my sophomore year in high school where i then started to ask many questions a lot similar to the ones you mentioned (now atheist), and kept it to myself for about a year, now i will say that it was full of anxiety, fear, and lonesome to go to church and watch everyone around you joyously praising something you genuinely have no belief in. Especially since my mother and both my uncles were very devout christians, it was not until i finally told them that the weight lifted and i could finally walk around without anxiety. Of course they talked, cried, got angry but it all got better and we even have long debates on certain topics. (Hate that what if your wrong and what if i'm right at the end of most debates. Such a copout )

Anyway do not force yourself, as you well know, you cannot force yourself to actually believe whole heartidly in something. Try to talk to family members or if your email went well ask for advice on steps to bring your thoughts out into the open. Also let us know the response, i would be really interested to read it.

[Abraxas]

I am an atheist, so take this for what you will, however, two points I think relevant to your situation. Firstly, why do you feel you must take the Bible literally to have faith? If you start from the standpoint that the Bible is an evolved document, a series of articles, stories, and directives being projected onto a huge universe, and an idealized form within that universe.

You can trace the evolution of thought from a more angry society, where war and and destruction of rival tribes, the treatment of slaves and criminals and philosophically divergent groups. It told of their struggles from servitude and their codes of laws they used to build their society and their relationships to the other empires of the time. By the New Testament, it told of a more tolerant ideal around a narrative more about healing, creating, giving, and benevolence towards their fellow man through Jesus Christ. Now, it was still filled with their hopes, their angers, their fears, but we see a transformation in the ideals. It also shows an interesting insight into the history and life of the people in the region, even if not literal fact.

That they projected some of their hopes, their angers, their ideals, their dreams onto a greatness they did not fully understand in a bid to explain the world around them, in particular the nature of their own hardship might be sufficient grounds to cut them some slack in terms of literalism. The truth it holds might not be the literal word but of the struggle to reach enlightenment and to bring our world in line with that which is good.

My second point is why do you feel you need faith at all? If you can get valuable lessons and insights into your life, the code of conduct by which you wish to live, understand history and philosophy better, why do you need the belief to accompany it if it no longer serves you? If you cannot make sense of what is written, you need not believe what is written. Do what makes sense for you, in particular if it makes sense to you that living life as best you can will not be held against you if doing so means not taking at face value one specific belief. After all, who is the more moral, the man who chooses to live the good life only because it is what he feels is right or he who chooses to live the good life only out of a desire to appease another being or for fear of failing to do otherwise?

This is a personal issue, and one that you are going to have to work through for yourself, but I do hope I have provided something to think on that might help you in working out where your heart and where your head lie.

[I AM ALL I AM]

G'day Sleepingthroughthestatic.

I have a mate that I have written a lot of music with. He used to belong to a New Apolstolic church. From his personal experience and questioning, he came to the conclusion that the religion that he had been a part of for around 25 years was mythological.

When he left the church, the other followers turned their back on him, including his family. Even though I'd only known him for around 7 years and the church followers/friends/family had known him a lot longer, I was still his friend and they chose not to be ... all because he declared a change of beliefs.

Having a look around on 'ex-religious' sites, there's a common thread of the one changing their beliefs being shunned by friends and family that are still in the church.

Anyway, you already know the answers that you are seeking. You have your personal experiences as a guide, and a mind to think with. Everyone else has the same, so no individual has some 'superior' answer for you.

I've read the bible from cover to cover. This was my personal experience. I also had my own thoughts about it. When people attempt to tell me about the bible/'Jesus'/'God', there is always an attempt to invalidate my personal experience and the thoughts that I had about the experience.

For instance, there are those that state that the bible is internally consistent ... it isn't, and anyone reading it can see that for themselves. I had actually started to highlight parts of the text and cross reference it with another bible because it was painfully obvious when reading it.

So why are these individuals attempting to re-present the facts with such claims/declarations ?

Who are they trying to convince ? Me ? Or themselves ?

A claim/declaration is a statement of Who You Are choosing to Be.

Claiming/declaring that there are no contradictions with the text of the bible is a choice that an individual makes to show that they are being untruthful.

I was brought up in a 'christian family/household'. My parents were older than those of my friends parents, so it was more 'old school' than any of my friends. The standard 'christian values' were taught. These are the same values that you can find in other religions, communities, indigenous cultures, etc, so they aren't solely 'christian values'.

The truth was a MAJOR value that was hammered home ... though over the years I recognised that it wasn't always followed by the ones doing the hammering.

Now, if you don't know if something is true, are you stating truthfully when you declare that it is true ?

Personally, that's a yes for me.

So when an individual declares that they KNOW 'Jesus'/'God', are they really telling the truth ?

When I have questioned individuals about KNOWING 'Jesus'/'God', they are unable to actually show that they do.

Oh, they can recite bible passages, platitudes, etc, yet none have ever shown that they actually KNOW 'Jesus'/'God'. They might know bible passages, or know what is taught about the bible passages, but that isn't 'Jesus'/'God' ... it's the writing of men, it's mythology.

Your personal experience and your own thoughts are what will decide for you as to what the truth is and whether you are going to choose to Be truthful or not.

The difficulty faced by being truthful comes about because so many are not. Those not being truthful do not enjoy having such pointed out to them, especially as they often claim the 'higher moral ground'.

The difficulty with being untruthful is that you have to live with yourself 24/7 for the rest of your life.

No one can give you an answer that will make the choice for you, you have to make the choice, no matter whether you have received answers to you questions or not.

The mate that I mentioned in the beginning of the post made his choice. I made mine. You have to make yours.

Personally, I prefer the truth as it allows me to recognise reality. By recognising reality, I can interact with it in a manner that is beneficial for my functionality, sustainability and enjoyment. Plus, I have to live with me 24/7.


Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

9. The group/leader is always right.

10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

http://www.rickross.com/warningsigns.html

[Flail]

This is literally the exact email I sent to my Christian philosophy teacher (I go to a very serious Christian high school). One of my comments about not wanting to discuss this with others has actually kept me from even posting on forums, but this is a debate forum...so I guess it's okay...I really need to start looking outward from myself. Just looking for additional input...thanks. If I get responses, I will probably question them...so be prepared, I'm not looking for a quick answer that gives me some vague hope. I want it to be able to sustain itself against criticisms and still hold water. Also, I'm not really looking for an atheist to come in here and say "this is what it feels like to be logical, it's always interested to see people cope with their shattered faith, etc etc". Please spare me that. And yes I realize the email probably sounds pathetic and idiotic to someone who hasn't been here, and will only use this as evidence to fuel their angst against religion...


"Hey, I decided I wanted to send an email. I find writing to be the more
clear way of communicating, and when dealing with such a profoundly
meaningful subject, I want to ensure both of us are saying what we want to
say--having time to think it through and communicate it in the manner that
we wish.

First, theres a few things I want to say. I dont want you to feel bad or
anything, like you caused me to stumble. Ive been having doubts for
literally years, but I always seem to bounce back based mostly on
emotion, vague answers, or practicality. I dont usually discuss these
doubts with anyone, because Im very afraid that I will ask questions,
people will not have the answers, and then I will cause them to stumble
and ultimately lose their faith. And, from a human standpoint, I think
Christianity is a very good thing that allows people to live with a
feeling of purpose and happiness (even if I dont necessarily believe it
to be divinely true). Even if it wasnt true, I wouldnt want to take that
away from someone. If it is true, I especially dont want to take that
away from them. So its generally a lose-lose situation. However, you have
obviously already thought about these things and I dont feel Im in
danger of messing up your life.

Also, don't be too alarmed. I'm not on the brink of going off the deep
end, I'm not going to start living like a depraved animal if I suddenly
lose my faith. I thoroughly buy into Christianity from a moral and
lifestyle perspective, and regardless of my personal belief in God, I will
continue to live my life the way that I see to be the correct way (moral,
compassionate, empathetic, etc--the way I've been raised, that is,
Christian). Nobody else even has a slight clue that I have any doubt, and
I consider this, obviously, confidential. I don't think, even if I
completely rejected Christianity, that I would ever even tell my
parents--it would be a selfish thing to do that would only serve to worry
and crush them.

I feel like I believe in Christianity with my heart, but less and less do
I believe it with my mind. Which makes for a very weak faith, one based on
works and fueled by self-aware delusion. So I really do need to work out
what I truly believe. But this is not just a small stumbling block, I've
had those. This is a culmination of stumbling blocks, and I've tripped so
many times that I'm starting to wonder why I keep getting back up. How
much should I have to work, rationalize, and conjure up reasons to believe
in God? Should not God have made it obvious, if He were real? I've read
the books. I've read Why I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist, I've
read books by Lee Strobel, I've done my homework. To end this long
introduction, I believe you mentioned in class, when discussing God's
sovereignty versus human free-will, that one must pick the one that best
fits the data (the data being the Bible of course). Well, you left out the
third option. That God is...imaginary. That seems to fit the data with
little contradiction. I cant be a true Christian as long I believe that
in the back of mind.

Now, this leads to current, primary issue.

Here is what is what the Bible states:


1. God knows absolutely everything, that is, was, ever will be.
2. God created literally everything.
3. If one does not meet Gods criteria (ie: accept Christ), you are
literally tortured forever.

When creating the universe, God knew man would fall. He had complete
knowledge that man would rebel, and billions of people would be RUTHLESSLY
TORTURED for ETERNITY as a result--every single nuance of his design for
Creation impacted the eternal destiny of people. But God created us
anyway. And why? Because he wanted to be loved? Worshiped? No one really
has a reason. And I cant think of a reason that would come anywhere near
justifying the ruthless, eternal torture of your own creation. Your own
creation that is in an environment in which they did not choose to be, an
environment where the outcome is already established, an environment in
which God setup the rules. Even if it is their choice to go to Hell
(which is questionable due to the Bible explicitly driving home the point
of Gods sovereignty), I do not see how it is justified. I do not want
rhetoric about how God gives us all a chance. Tell me, if you were about
to have a son, but you knew your son would go on to make bad decisions and
eventually end up burned and tormented for eternity, would you still go
ahead and have your son? No, you would do the loving thing and stop it
from happening. Anyone who didnt would be rightfully called an evil,
egotistical, psychopath. And that is the reality of the situation, there
is no way around it with Christian doctrine. Somewhere along the way, it
cannot be right. It completely contradicts the image of a benevolent,
loving God. And the kicker, all of this can be applied to Satan and his
fallen angels.

And then further problems pile on. God decides to literally wipe out the
Earth in an act of mass genocide, literally killing every person and
animal and living thing on the Earth barring one family and a collection
of animals. This could perhaps make sense if God simply didnt know what
was going to happen, but He did. And it is completely illogical. When God
was making the world, he knew if he set it up this way, that this would
happen, and he would have to do this. That makes no sense. And then, to
fix it all (which, was actually by design because he knew it would
happen), he decides to send his Son to be crucified and redeem us of our
sins. But if for some reason we decide we dont believe in it (and being
completely honest, there are a LOT of reasons to reject it), we are BURNED
ALIVE FOREVER. And thats not even taking into account that you dont even
believe we really have a choice to be saved, but rather all of us would
burn if God didnt arbitrarily decide which ones to save from the
deathtrap that he designed and put us in. The Bible says it is our very
nature to sin, we cannot help it, we are born into it--we have no chance
from the beginning unless youre one of the lucky few who wins the
salvation lottery when God drew numbers before he created humanity. Can
you honestly tell me where Im wrong here? Can you truthfully admit all of
this and still hold the belief that God is just and loving? Your analogy
that God is still just, like a police officer stopping only certain people
for speeding tickets does not hold up. For one, in this situation, the
police officer is the one who designed them to speed and are born with an
innate, unavoidable nature to speed. And yes, it is unjust if you only
punish some and not others for no reason. If both your children misbehave
and make the same mistake (that is, being a sinner), and you mercilessly
beat and torture one and give the other one a hug, yes, that is most
assuredly injustice. Youd probably have your children taken away from
you.

Its like, once I remove God from the equation, everything falls into
line. I realize the following can be rationalized, but if they dont have
to be, if the core of Christianity doesnt make sense then everything
becomes easy. Why is there evil? God isnt real. Why is there suffering?
God isnt real. Why doesnt God make his existence obvious? God isnt
real. Why does God appoint all authority, even authority that ends up
brutally murdering millions for no reason? God isnt real. Why are there
passages in the Old Testament that make God seem really bad? God is not
real.

I do not want rhetoric about us being the clay or a fool says in his
heart God there is no God and not having the right to question Gods
ways. It doesnt hold up. God apparently gave us a brain, I cannot be
faulted for using it. Im trying to determine if the Bible is actually
true, and going back to the Bible is circular logic. Surely God would not
expect me to delude myself in order to believe divine, life-saving truth.
My reasons to believe in God are hanging by a thread. My best evidence is
the experience of others. My parents, and others I genuinely trust, have
told me about experiences they swear actually happened, and if they did,
either had to have been God or extreme self-delusion. My parents claim to
have seen a fog in their bedroom while intense prayer, Ive heard
countless stories of extreme coincidences. But can I really base my faith
on the subjective, biased experiences of others? Im inclined to say no.
Ive never experienced God, despite all my efforts and sincere prayer to
do His will (I assure you it was not at all done with a selfish or
doubtful attitude). There are a few other interesting reasons, like
prophecies, but I havent researched it much and Id imagine most are
disputed, its worth looking into but it doesnt erase the bigger problems
Ive talked about above.

So thats my problem. I apologize if I wrote that a little bit heated, Im
just pretty frustrated. Its not like Ive never believed in God. I pretty
much always have, and Ive been, at points, absolutely devout, dedicating
my life and having a genuine love and desire to serve Him. These are not
doubts out of some ulterior motive, I dont want to go drink and
fornicate. It is genuine intellectual inquiry. The weird thing is, I still
want to go to church and youth group, and marry a nice Christian girl and
live a good Christian life, helping others. Maybe Ill just end up living
like one regardless, trying not to think about the utter hypocrisy and
absurdity that would be. If you see me praying or something, I hope you
dont think Im necessarily think Im a huge fake idiot, even if I am...my
opinions are subject to change (whether through logic or not)...I have
never come close to opening up like this about these kind of things to
anyone so Im a bit apprehensive..."

The overwhelming circumstantial evidence points to the fact that Christian BibleGod notions were 1st century, man-made attempts to answer the unknown and to justify man's place in the world; concocted to provide a moral framework for ancient human understanding.

But just because you may reject the BibleGod and the Christian 'take' on things, is no reason to despair; if there is a 'God' who created your special nature then 'He'd' surely want you to get beyond literal superstitions from the 1st century with which you've been indoctrinated and begin think and adapt on your own.

And as you say, all of the various Christian moral and philosophical ideas are available to consider and apply as you choose despite the fact that you would consider the BibleGod as mythical only; and just because you reject the BibleGod doesn't necessarily imply that a 'God' entity of some sort doesn't exist; it just means that you've given up believing in a divisive 'God' notion that lacks coherence and support.

Be skeptical, while remaining open minded. The universe is a big and complex entity well beyond Paul's thinking and our own.

[Crazee]

This is a difficult thing to go through, and it's good that you realize swinging from devout christian to strict atheist will do you no good. This can happen to people that become disillusioned by religion and forget that it does have some very good parts to it.

First of all, out of curiousity, has your teacher emailed you back yet? I'm interested to know how s/he responds to your well phrased concerns.

You understand everything you need to know to become a tolerant individual that realizes that value in all viewpoints presented by all groups. You've been afraid to ask questions in the past, but you know that asking questions is the only way you can put your mind to rest on the issue.

There is a middle ground, as people have shown you. You can see the value in science as well as theistic culture, both have a strong role that can be played in our life. My best suggestion is to create your own god.

In history, god has always represented the ideal attributes of a group of people. When the mindset of people changes, their god changes too. You speak about how you don't understand how the Christian god can be compassionate and yet damn people to hell. I agree, I would say that a compassionate god doesn't do such a thing, or at least not for eternity, and many christians here argue that the Christian god doesn't actually do that.

Your god can be anything, and it will be real to you. The mind is a powerful thing. I think god is contained in our mind, but that doesn't make his/her/its existence any less real to one who believes in it. I don't refer to my own portrayal of this 'helpful being' as god, only because I don't like the implications, god works well enough for most people. It could be thought of as a personal guardian that watches over us and gives us advice when we sorely need it. Just know that your god wants you to have comfort and peace of mind.

Good luck

[Flail]

This is a difficult thing to go through, and it's good that you realize swinging from devout christian to strict atheist will do you no good. This can happen to people that become disillusioned by religion and forget that it does have some very good parts to it.

First of all, out of curiousity, has your teacher emailed you back yet? I'm interested to know how s/he responds to your well phrased concerns.

You understand everything you need to know to become a tolerant individual that realizes that value in all viewpoints presented by all groups. You've been afraid to ask questions in the past, but you know that asking questions is the only way you can put your mind to rest on the issue.

There is a middle ground, as people have shown you. You can see the value in science as well as theistic culture, both have a strong role that can be played in our life. My best suggestion is to create your own god.

In history, god has always represented the ideal attributes of a group of people. When the mindset of people changes, their god changes too. You speak about how you don't understand how the Christian god can be compassionate and yet damn people to hell. I agree, I would say that a compassionate god doesn't do such a thing, or at least not for eternity, and many christians here argue that the Christian god doesn't actually do that.

Your god can be anything, and it will be real to you. The mind is a powerful thing. I think god is contained in our mind, but that doesn't make his/her/its existence any less real to one who believes in it. I don't refer to my own portrayal of this 'helpful being' as god, only because I don't like the implications, god works well enough for most people. It could be thought of as a personal guardian that watches over us and gives us advice when we sorely need it. Just know that your god wants you to have comfort and peace of mind.

Good luck

I recognize and appreciate that you are trying to help, but is there any evidence to demonstrate that 'God' wants anyone to have comfort and peace of mind? Does beneficial change and progress and redemption emanate from comfort and peace of mind, or is it rather angst, guilt, failure and remorse that are the better motivators?

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

My faith is hanging by a thread-are there sufficient answers?

Only OP can answer this question to OP's satisfaction.

Don't let others tell you they have superior knowledge of a god they can't show exists, much less to have the properties they declare this god to possess.

What does this god - if he's a'doin' it - tell you?