Minimum Attributes of God

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ThatGirlAgain
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Minimum Attributes of God

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Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

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Janx
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Re: Minimum Attributes of God

Post #161

Post by Janx »

EduChris wrote:
Janx wrote:...I don't get it. If not for volition then what is the purpose of God in this world? So far volition is the only identifiable characteristic I can find in your God.
God is the logically necessary source and ground of all being and all existence; the "brute fact" on which everything else depends. God is not bound by any arbitrary limitations. God is not arbitrarily limited in factual knowledge. God is not arbitrarily limited by any dimensions of space or time. God is not arbitrarily limited in the abillity to cause intended effects. God is whatever else there may be that is logically necessary--including logic and reason itself, relationality, differentiation, information, and consciousness. A good case can be made that such a being--with full and complete knowledge of facts, along with unhindered reason--would necessarily represent love and goodness, since it would be irrational to ever knowingly act maliciously in the absence of other non-arbitrary considerations. And so on.
You reject an irrational concept such as the necessary existence of our universe yet accept a magical man as the reason for our existence. To each his own I guess.

I don't see a definition here sir. I see an infinitely blank page.

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Post #162

Post by Filthy Tugboat »

EduChris wrote:
Filthy Tugboat wrote:...Why change the definition of a word though?...
Because the OP didn't ask us to present a list of various dictionary definitions.
No, it asked you to define the term "God" or explain the definition of the term "God". You have provided a single definition that is not widely accepted and I personally think it to be more specific than is necessary as it excludes many forms of "Gods". What is the point of defining the term in a general sense if you refuse to do exactly that? Why put forward a definition if you don't plan to follow the guidelines set?
EduChris wrote:
Filthy Tugboat wrote:...the "obsolete theistic discourse" to which you refer happens to be commonly held belief among many, if not most theists.
The majority of theists are not concerned with philosphical nuance and academic rigor. Popular opinion is inadequate for debating issues at a higher level than just "the person on the street."
That's irrelevant, this thread is directed at providing a general definition for a common word that can be taken in many different ways and you referred to something relevant and more popular than other proposed forms of theistic discourse as "obsolete" which seems... well... completely incorrect.
EduChris wrote:What you seem to wish to do is to keep the definition dumbed down, so that the standard atheists arguments can wreak their havoc.
Really? How does making a definition that is inclusive of the definition you supplied but more general (less specific) going to make it more susceptible to argue against. If anything, adding traits would provide this effect, not taking them away.
EduChris wrote:Why should it surprise you that theism has changed over the past, oh, many centuries?
Because I have been on this website for over a year and studied religion outside of my experience with the debate. Something you should be well aware of by now, we have engaged each other on many occasions and at no point have I inferred that religion is the same as it was several centuries ago. I would prefer if you did not take this to a personal level.
Religion feels to me a little like a Nigerian Prince scam. The "offer" is illegitimate, the "request" is unreasonable and the source is dubious, in fact, Nigeria doesn't even have a royal family.

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Re: Minimum Attributes of God

Post #163

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EduChris wrote: A good case can be made that such a being--with full and complete knowledge of facts, along with unhindered reason--would necessarily represent love and goodness, since it would be irrational to ever knowingly act maliciously in the absence of other non-arbitrary considerations. And so on.
Love is a subjective concept beyond words. You couldn't not have picked a more ethereal example. On top of that I have never known love to be rational as it's emotion based.
...since it would be irrational to ever knowingly act maliciously in the absence of other non-arbitrary considerations...
I don't know what this means. What other considerations?

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Re: Minimum Attributes of God

Post #164

Post by EduChris »

ThatGirlAgain wrote:...On what basis would that choice be made as opposed to any other? In volition as we know it choices are made based on pre-existing influences. What pre-exisitng influences lead to a baseball world as opposed to a no baseball world?
The only difference between your "omniverse generating system" and theism is that the latter, being more simple by virtue of fewer arbitrary contraints, has one more set of possibilities available to it--viz, universes that are not predetermined, universes having real freedom and genuine autonomy to participate in creating their own future(s).

A volitional being which is not arbitrarily contrained in terms of knowledge and causal efficacy would be able to envision all possibilities, and select on the basis of value. Predetermined universes would have no greater value in actuality than they have in the envisioning; the only universes which could have greater value in actuality would be those in which the universe had genuine autonomy--the freedom to be something more than a pre-drawn blueprint. God could have actualized one or more such universes, without having to actualize any universes where the actualization would add nothing above and beyond the mere envisioning.

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Re: Minimum Attributes of God

Post #165

Post by EduChris »

Janx wrote:...Love is a subjective concept beyond words...I have never known love to be rational as it's emotion based...
I'm not talking about mushy, romantic, "what's in it for me" types of love; rather, I'm talking about love in the sense of actively seeking the good welfare of the other, regardless of one's personal, momentary feelings.

Janx wrote:...What other considerations?
The idea is that seeking the best welfare of the other might involve tradeoffs between autonomy (which might very well end in suffering) and micromanagement (which eliminates suffering, but only at the cost of greatly diminished autonomy).

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Post #166

Post by EduChris »

Filthy Tugboat wrote:...How does making a definition that is inclusive of the definition you supplied but more general (less specific) going to make it more susceptible to argue against. If anything, adding traits would provide this effect, not taking them away...
Where has anyone on this thread proposed a definition that was inclusive of my definition, while at the same time being more general and less susceptible to the standard atheist talking points? Can you provide an example of such definition?

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Post #167

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 161:
Janx wrote:
EduChris wrote: God is the logically necessary source and ground of all being and all existence; the "brute fact" on which everything else depends. God is not bound by any arbitrary limitations. God is not arbitrarily limited in factual knowledge. God is not arbitrarily limited by any dimensions of space or time. God is not arbitrarily limited in the abillity to cause intended effects. God is whatever else there may be that is logically necessary--including logic and reason itself, relationality, differentiation, information, and consciousness. A good case can be made that such a being--with full and complete knowledge of facts, along with unhindered reason--would necessarily represent love and goodness, since it would be irrational to ever knowingly act maliciously in the absence of other non-arbitrary considerations. And so on.
I don't see a definition here sir. I see an infinitely blank page.
And that page will forever be blank, because the god concept is where we store the unconfirmed and unknowable.

The god in the god concept can be defined to suit one's needs - and that is a good thing (barring 'following' beliefs based thereon). It allows us to bypass the vexing and unknown and carry on about our daily lives. The god concept is the sooting salve for a conflicted* mind.
*Conflicted only in terms of a lack of knowledge on a given question or topic.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Post #168

Post by TheJackelantern »

The only difference between your "omniverse generating system" and theism is that the latter, being more simple by virtue of fewer arbitrary contraints, has one more set of possibilities available to it--viz, universes that are not predetermined, universes having real freedom and genuine autonomy to participate in creating their own future(s).
Explain to us how consciousness is more simple by virtue ? I see that you evaded having to answer my questions entirely. And it seems your beliefs is simply resting on what is easier for you to grasp since you are intellectually lazy to the point where you can't deal with reality, or the problems with your argument.

Your claim to a set of more possibilities is irrelevant. You can't have anything come from a conscious being without first the possibilities that even allow for basic reactionary systems much less anything with dynamics that support cognitive functionality.. Your argument is self-collapsing. Consciousness is probably the most un-simple and complex thing you could have brought up in this discussion.
less susceptible to the standard atheist talking points
How about you actually properly address my posts.. It's funny that you choose to ignore everything and chalk it up as "Talking points".. How convenient of you!
A volitional being which is not arbitrarily contrained in terms of knowledge and causal efficacy would be able to envision all possibilities
This is basically saying you are complete clueless and need to appeal to the "Incomprehensible" argument as an escape route from actually having to address peoples arguments to which you obviously can not deal with. Basically you are posting a circular load of incoherent nonsense.

Let's to an experiment here:

Try envisioning anything at all without information.. Try posting a reply here without information. Try responding or conveying a message. Try being conscious without information.. You see, there is a underlining failure in your argument.. And it's best understood by learning your ABC's:
Energy =/= information =/= cause

This is unarguable:

A: There can be no choice, or decision made without information
B: There can be no consciousness or awareness without information
C: One can not have knowledge without information
D: One can not do anything without information
E: One can not exist without informational value
F: One can not think without information
G: One can not even know one's self exists without information
H: One can not reply, respond, or react without information
I: One can not convey, send, or express a message without information
J: There can be no morals, ethics, or laws without information
K: One can not have or express emotions, or feelings without information
L: One can not have experiences, or experience anything at all without information
M: One can not have a place to exist in order to be existent without information
N: One can not Create, or Design anything without information
O: One can not have the ability to process things without information
P: Intelligence can not exist without information to apply
Q: No system, or process can exist without information
R: Cause and effect can not exist without information
S: Logic can not exist without information
T: Reason can not exist or things can not have a reason / purpose without information
U: There can be no meaning without information
V: There can be no value without information
W: There can be no capacity without informational value
Y: There can be no complexity without informational structure
Z: There can be no "I" without the information that gives I an Identity.

There is no determinism, volition, cognitive functionality, or the possibility of a conscious state without information. Without an already existing informational UNIVERSE (existence), a universe with an already existing complex adaptive system with feedback.

You can try to argue as you may about volition, but it's entirely irrelevant. Either answer the questions I presented, or concede.

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Post #169

Post by EduChris »

TheJackelantern wrote:...There is no determinism...without information...
Information is logically necessary; information inheres within the theistic definition of God that I have presented, and it also inheres within TGA's "omniverse generating system." The only difference is that her hypothesis involves more arbitrary constraints than mine.

TheJackelantern wrote:...There is no determinism...Without an already existing informational UNIVERSE (existence), a universe with an already existing complex adaptive system with feedback...
I think TGA would dispute your claim. I'll leave that to her, if she wishes.

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Post #170

Post by TheJackelantern »

Information is logically necessary; information inheres within the theistic definition of God that I have presented, and it also inheres within TGA's "omniverse generating system." The only difference is that her hypothesis involves more arbitrary constraints than mine.
No, it inheres to literally everything. The problem is that consciousness can't exist without cause. Consciousness is an emergent property. Hence, it's funny that Christians think the Universe needs creation, that which is not conscious while begging us to believe something with a conscious mind magically doesn't. As if consciousness requires no causation.. This comes from intentional ignorance of why things that are not conscious would requires less cause to exist than things that are.. Hence, Christians have things entirely backwards.. Thus it is impossible for consciousness to be "eternal" or ever solve infinite regress.

Lesson of the day:
Existence doesn't require any conscious thing, being, entity, or state to exist. It's the other way around!
And Christians really hate this argument because they can't defend themselves against it.. Hence, you can't move the goal post any further back.
I think TGA would dispute your claim. I'll leave that to her, if she wishes.
Then she can try and do some from the position of no information or use of and see where it gets her. That will be a futile effort trying to violate the ABC list to which includes the English alphabet. ;)

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