Why do Atheists have a significantly higher rate of Suicide?

[Shermana]

http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article ... urnalID=13

According to the American Journal of Psychiatry, those who are religiously affiliated have a "significantly lower" rate of taking their own life.

Why do Atheists and those not religiously affiliated thus have a significantly higher rate? Is Society so overwhelmingly oppressive and religious that it causes the non-believers to want the fast way out? Do Atheists in general have a weaker will to live? Are religious people bullying them so they can't take it anymore? If so, why do countries like South Korea which are nearly 50% Atheist have one of the worst suicide rates? Is it just "part of their culture"?

Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members.

Now I know from personal experience at least, that Atheists having less contact with family members is not always (or usually) the result of being "shunned" by the religious members, but the result of the Atheist not wanting to be around the religious members. As for being "younger", it's the older folks have by far the highest suicide rate, so there's an anomaly in this variable. Does marriage prevent suicide? (You'd think from the anti-marriage rhetoric it's the opposite). If so, is there a corrolation with the tendency for Atheists to not get married?

[Shermana]

http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article ... urnalID=13

According to the American Journal of Psychiatry, those who are religiously affiliated have a "significantly lower" rate of taking their own life.

Why do Atheists and those not religiously affiliated thus have a significantly higher rate? Is Society so overwhelmingly oppressive and religious that it causes the non-believers to want the fast way out? Do Atheists in general have a weaker will to live? Are religious people bullying them so they can't take it anymore? If so, why do countries like South Korea which are nearly 50% Atheist have one of the worst suicide rates? Is it just "part of their culture"?

Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members.

Now I know from personal experience at least, that Atheists having less contact with family members is not always (or usually) the result of being "shunned" by the religious members, but the result of the Atheist not wanting to be around the religious members. As for being "younger", it's the older folks have by far the highest suicide rate, so there's an anomaly in this variable. Does marriage prevent suicide? (You'd think from the anti-marriage rhetoric it's the opposite). If so, is there a corrolation with the tendency for Atheists to not get married?

From reading the articles, it appears it is in the main showing suicide stats across the board and that includes physician-assisted suicides. (euthanasia). Many secular countries allow it. That would probably have a lot to do with the stats showing that the majority of suicides are those of over the age of 65 and the majority of those over 65 are over the age of 85.

SO, unless you are assuming that there are no religious people whatsoever living in secular countries, the whole "atheists" bit in your topic title, is more than a tad misleading, Shermana.

Catalyst.

I thought it was mainly about suicide attempts. The part about assisted suicide is a separate part of it....but it could prove that in more secular places, there is less social mores about assisted suicide so it goes both ways. I don't see why you'd assume I was saying there's no religious people whatsoever in secular countries, that's a bit 'misleading" I'd say.

[catalyst]

http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article ... urnalID=13

According to the American Journal of Psychiatry, those who are religiously affiliated have a "significantly lower" rate of taking their own life.

Why do Atheists and those not religiously affiliated thus have a significantly higher rate? Is Society so overwhelmingly oppressive and religious that it causes the non-believers to want the fast way out? Do Atheists in general have a weaker will to live? Are religious people bullying them so they can't take it anymore? If so, why do countries like South Korea which are nearly 50% Atheist have one of the worst suicide rates? Is it just "part of their culture"?

Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members.

Now I know from personal experience at least, that Atheists having less contact with family members is not always (or usually) the result of being "shunned" by the religious members, but the result of the Atheist not wanting to be around the religious members. As for being "younger", it's the older folks have by far the highest suicide rate, so there's an anomaly in this variable. Does marriage prevent suicide? (You'd think from the anti-marriage rhetoric it's the opposite). If so, is there a corrolation with the tendency for Atheists to not get married?

From reading the articles, it appears it is in the main showing suicide stats across the board and that includes physician-assisted suicides. (euthanasia). Many secular countries allow it. That would probably have a lot to do with the stats showing that the majority of suicides are those of over the age of 65 and the majority of those over 65 are over the age of 85.

SO, unless you are assuming that there are no religious people whatsoever living in secular countries, the whole "atheists" bit in your topic title, is more than a tad misleading, Shermana.

Catalyst.

I thought it was mainly about suicide attempts. The part about assisted suicide is a separate part of it....but it could prove that in more secular places, there is less social mores about assisted suicide so it goes both ways. I don't see why you'd assume I was saying there's no religious people whatsoever in secular countries, that's a bit 'misleading" I'd say.

Please cite specifically on both those cited links where it states that atheists have a significantly higher rate of suicide.

Having read them both a couple of times now, I see nothing to support your misleading subject title.

Also, I assumed nothing. I wrote "so unless YOU are assuming"......

Thanks

Catalyst.

[Shermana]

Subjects with no religious affiliation were more often lifetime suicide attempters, reported more suicidal ideation, and were more likely to have first-degree relatives who had committed suicide than religiously affiliated subjects.

From the results section. The study was looking at attempted suicide, which I suppose you could say is not the same as the suicide rate per se, but is highly corrolated, the group that is more often to attempt is most likely the one that more often succeeds.

[catalyst]

Subjects with no religious affiliation were more often lifetime suicide attempters, reported more suicidal ideation, and were more likely to have first-degree relatives who had committed suicide than religiously affiliated subjects.

From the results section. The study was looking at attempted suicide, which I suppose you could say is not the same as the suicide rate per se, but is highly corrolated, the group that is more often to attempt is most likely the one that more often succeeds.

So to you "no religious affiliation" automatically means ATHEIST?

The same article goes further to state:

This study has some limitations. For example, it did not assess religious upbringing, religious practice, or the level of personal devotion. Therefore, it is possible that depressed patients who stated that they were atheists or had no religion had abandoned religion as a consequence of depression or hopelessness.

AND

It is notable that hopelessness and depression scores were similar in the religious and nonreligious group

Considering with suicide attempt, in many cases it is the feeling of hopelessness and depression bringing such thoughts on, then if the above second point is true, then it shows in cases OF depression and hopelessness, that the scores are SIMILAR, rather than significantly higher, IF higher at all in the non religious group.

Sometimes it is worth reading the entire thing rather than just the abstract, Shermana.

So again, I will say you using the word ATHEIST in your title, is VERY misleading.

Catalyst.

[TheJackelantern]

And what is meant exactly by the term "tolerance?" One thousand people polled...resulting in...one thousand different definitions. How is anyone, religious or not, supposed to extract any meaning out of such an overused, abstract, and morally ambiguous term? Perhaps you don't see the glaring irony in glossing over the moral standard that is developed in the Bible (as expressed in so many passages you don't mention, not to mention the ones you misrepresent or take out of context), and then tell everyone that we just need to "tolerant."

Practical tolerance means I don't need to seek to ban your religion and install an atheist state. It also means you don't need to ban Atheism and install a Religious theocracy. It means I don't go out and kill theists, kick them in the balls, or even need do anything other than co-exist under common law that protects everyone from each others extremist nut cases. Practical tolerance doesn't mean we need agree on beliefs, or be afraid to have these challenging debates. Something the bible definitely doesn't teach, or many religions and cults around the world for that matter. And I clearly outlined that in the bible for you.. Many Christians have no idea what is actually in the bible, or how disgusting it is.. But ok, whatever I suppose :/

Perhaps you don't see the glaring irony in glossing over the moral standard that is developed in the Bible

If you think the bible ought to be a moral standard, this world will turn to complete and utter sh_t.. There's no irony in me outlining the immorality in the bible, or the proper context of the bible.

[spayne]

And what is meant exactly by the term "tolerance?" One thousand people polled...resulting in...one thousand different definitions. How is anyone, religious or not, supposed to extract any meaning out of such an overused, abstract, and morally ambiguous term? Perhaps you don't see the glaring irony in glossing over the moral standard that is developed in the Bible (as expressed in so many passages you don't mention, not to mention the ones you misrepresent or take out of context), and then tell everyone that we just need to "tolerant."

Practical tolerance means I don't need to seek to ban your religion and install an atheist state. It also means you don't need to ban Atheism and install a Religious theocracy. It means I don't go out and kill theists, kick them in the balls, or even need do anything other than co-exist under common law that protects everyone from each others extremist nut cases. Practical tolerance doesn't mean we need agree on beliefs, or be afraid to have these challenging debates. Something the bible definitely doesn't teach, or many religions and cults around the world for that matter. And I clearly outlined that in the bible for you.. Many Christians have no idea what is actually in the bible, or how disgusting it is.. But ok, whatever I suppose :/

Perhaps you don't see the glaring irony in glossing over the moral standard that is developed in the Bible

If you think the bible ought to be a moral standard, this world will turn to complete and utter sh_t.. There's no irony in me outlining the immorality in the bible, or the proper context of the bible.

Your own definition of tolerance if just that, yours. Other people might have a completely different definition of what it connotes. Also, you have no basis for determining what other Christians know about the Bible. You only can draw on your own personal experience, which apparently isn't so positive based on all of the negative comments you have made.

Has it occurred to you that your own pejorative statements about the Bible, Christians and Christianity actually negate your beliefs about tolerance? Ie. with all due respect, you dont' actually present yourself as being a very tolerant person.

[TheJackelantern]

Your own definition of tolerance if just that, yours. Other people might have a completely different definition of what it connotes. Also, you have no basis for determining what other Christians know about the Bible. You only can draw on your own personal experience, which apparently isn't so positive based on all of the negative comments you have made.

yeah, like burning witches for 300 years.. And yes I do have a basis for determining what Christians know about the Bible as I have been one for 20 some years of my life.. And my negative comments about the religion have nothing to do with individual Christians other than many don't know what is actually written in their bibles. And perhaps you can outline exactly what is positive about the scripture I have posted.. Cause I am sure killing non-believers to some Christians might be considered practical tolerance right?

So tell me, what would you teach your children? To tolerate each other in an effort to co-exist peacefully, or to kill each other for a bid at dominance? Makes me wonder if you have ever bothered understanding videos like the Pale blue Dot from Carl Sagan. You might actually grasp what tolerance is vs what human conceit is.

Has it occurred to you that your own pejorative statements about the Bible, Christians and Christianity actually negate your beliefs about tolerance? Ie. with all due respect, you dont' actually present yourself as being a very tolerant person

.

Firstly, I don't generalize Christians as there are many out there to whom I am more than capable of being friends with.. I still retain very close relations with my Christian friends I grew up with. 2ndly, this is a debate forum, and a proper forum to openly debate such issues. 3rdly, damn right I am prejorative against doctrines that teach hate, fear, batter wife syndrome, Narcissism, to worship a genocidal, infanticidal, jealous, and narcissistic volcanic deity. Am I supposed to love that? Perhaps we should all love Hitler for his genocide of the Jews to!.. If you have a problem with my prejorativeness against an immoral doctrine of hate, then too bad.. This is your excuse for not having to deal with reality of what is actually in the bible. And well, that is your problem and not mine.

[spayne]

Your own definition of tolerance if just that, yours. Other people might have a completely different definition of what it connotes. Also, you have no basis for determining what other Christians know about the Bible. You only can draw on your own personal experience, which apparently isn't so positive based on all of the negative comments you have made.

yeah, like burning witches for 300 years.. And yes I do have a basis for determining what Christians know about the Bible as I have been one for 20 some years of my life.. And my negative comments about the religion have nothing to do with individual Christians other than many don't know what is actually written in their bibles. And perhaps you can outline exactly what is positive about the scripture I have posted.. Cause I am sure killing non-believers to some Christians might be considered practical tolerance right?

So tell me, what would you teach your children? To tolerate each other in an effort to co-exist peacefully, or to kill each other for a bid at dominance? Makes me wonder if you have ever bothered understanding videos like the Pale blue Dot from Carl Sagan. You might actually grasp what tolerance is vs what human conceit is.

Has it occurred to you that your own pejorative statements about the Bible, Christians and Christianity actually negate your beliefs about tolerance? Ie. with all due respect, you dont' actually present yourself as being a very tolerant person

.

Firstly, I don't generalize Christians as there are many out there to whom I am more than capable of being friends with.. I still retain very close relations with my Christian friends I grew up with. 2ndly, this is a debate forum, and a proper forum to openly debate such issues. 3rdly, damn right I am prejorative against doctrines that teach hate, fear, batter wife syndrome, Narcissism, to worship a genocidal, infanticidal, jealous, and narcissistic volcanic deity. Am I supposed to love that? Perhaps we should all love Hitler for his genocide of the Jews to!.. If you have a problem with my prejorativeness against an immoral doctrine of hate, then too bad.. This is your excuse for not having to deal with reality of what is actually in the bible. And well, that is your problem and not mine.

The fact is, Christianity is not a doctrine of hate, and the God of the Bible is not a volcanic deity. By reading the WHOLE Bible, if one is willing, you see that God is not hateful, but loving. He is described in the book of Exodus as being merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. We see God's true character in the person of Jesus Christ. The whole message of the Bible is that, through our belief in Jesus, we have an opportunity to know God as a loving father. Also, if God were so narcissistic as you suggest, then why would he have given people free will? If he was narcisstic, he would just demand that people serve him and obey him.

You said that you were a Christian for 20 years, but yet your whole criticism of the Bible is built on some verses that have been taken out of context. Christianity is built on the reality that we can have a relationship with God. A relationship is a two way street in which both parties participate. God is alive and speaks to those who want to hear from him. If you are as judgmental and hateful of the Christian religion as you claim to be, I wonder if it is simply because you never had the opportunity to encounter God in a personal way and know his love. Not all churches teach that you can actually hear from God and that God wants to speak to you and share his love with you, and tell you how much he loves you. This is the foundation of Christianity, and unfortunately there is a large group of Christians that don't understand how a relationship with God works. Therefore, they get disppointed and lose faith rather easily because they haven't learned how to connect with God on an intimate level. Because when you have heard God speak to you about how much he loves you, and you have gotten a glimpse of the love he has for you, you won't want to ever leave or say a bad thing about God again.

[Flail]

spayne wrote:

... Not all churches teach that you can actually hear from God and that God wants to speak to you and share his love with you, and tell you how much he loves you. This is the foundation of Christianity, and unfortunately there is a large group of Christians that don't understand how a relationship with God works. Therefore, they get disppointed and lose faith rather easily because they haven't learned how to connect with God on an intimate level. Because when you have heard God speak to you about how much he loves you, and you have gotten a glimpse of the love he has for you, you won't want to ever leave or say a bad thing about God again.

Obviously, Christianity is a trained belief system and therefore the manner in which one comes to view 'God' is totally dependent upon how one is trained. As one who wasn't trained to a 'God' belief, I read the Gospels differently. To me Jesus' message was that a relationship with 'God' comes only thru relationships with others, particularly those in need and in pain and not with worship or some supposed, self serving relationship directly with 'God'.

If we would all turn away from our trained belief systems and our particular versions God and our concocted relationships with 'Him' and turned instead toward each other we might actually find the love of which you speak.

If there is a God, common sense and the teachings of Jesus would dictate that we find such a being and such an ideal in the suffering of our neighbors regardless of who or what they are, and not in anything churchy or selfishly directed.

Although Christianity pretends to be about others, it is only engrained lip service. Christianity is all about the self...me, me, me. Love me, heal me, save me, comfort me, forgive my sins, grant me eternal life etc etc...it's quite sick actually, when you consider how much the people down the street are suffering alone. Have you ever thought how many needy people you pass in your car on your way to being churchy every Sunday, to get your dose of self serving comfort?

[spayne]

spayne wrote:

... Not all churches teach that you can actually hear from God and that God wants to speak to you and share his love with you, and tell you how much he loves you. This is the foundation of Christianity, and unfortunately there is a large group of Christians that don't understand how a relationship with God works. Therefore, they get disppointed and lose faith rather easily because they haven't learned how to connect with God on an intimate level. Because when you have heard God speak to you about how much he loves you, and you have gotten a glimpse of the love he has for you, you won't want to ever leave or say a bad thing about God again.

Obviously, Christianity is a trained belief system and therefore the manner in which one comes to view 'God' is totally dependent upon how one is trained. As one who wasn't trained to a 'God' belief, I read the Gospels differently. To me Jesus' message was that a relationship with 'God' comes only thru relationships with others, particularly those in need and in pain and not with worship or some supposed, self serving relationship directly with 'God'.

If we would all turn away from our trained belief systems and our particular versions God and our concocted relationships with 'Him' and turned instead toward each other we might actually find the love of which you speak.

If there is a God, common sense and the teachings of Jesus would dictate that we find such a being and such an ideal in the suffering of our neighbors regardless of who or what they are, and not in anything churchy or selfishly directed.

Although Christianity pretends to be about others, it is only engrained lip service. Christianity is all about the self...me, me, me. Love me, heal me, save me, comfort me, forgive my sins, grant me eternal life etc etc...it's quite sick actually, when you consider how much the people down the street are suffering alone. Have you ever thought how many needy people you pass in your car on your way to being churchy every Sunday, to get your dose of self serving comfort?

The message of Jesus was to love God with all of your mind, soul and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. He said that all of the "law and the prophets" (ie. the whole Bible) rested on this principle. He was also very clear that love of God is the foundation for being able to love people selflessly and sacrficially, in the way that God intended. He then modeled this kind of sacrifical love by serving, healing and eventually dying for those that he loved.

I would agree with you that some Christians seem to make their faith about themselves, as you stated. But there are countless Christians who are serving others out of their love for God and people. My church gave $34,000 in December alone to a ministry in Africa that supports farmers. I am involved in a ministry that makes fresh meals every week for people on the streets of Skid Row in Los Angeles. There are churches all over southern California who routinely send groups into Mexico to help poor families, battered women's shelters, and orphanges. And these types of churches are everywhere. In fact, if you were to tell me what community you live in, I guarantee you that, unless you live in Antarctica, I could find churches that are actively serving people in their community through their love of Jesus Christ. The list goes on and on. The fact of the matter is that there are Christians all over the world who are engaged in the process of loving God with all of your mind, soul and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. They are doing this because they have encountered God's love, and are passing that on to others.