Is Precision in Nature Evidence of God or Evolution?

[Alter2Ego]

[font=Verdana]For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"


The reverse of precision is an accident aka a spontaneous event that happen by chance with no one guiding the outcome. Websters New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results"


Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us. This precision renders the evolution theory mere fiction, for precision leaves no room for error or for accidental events. Take, for example, the first discovered 60 elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of these 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms--from which the Earth's elements are made--are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopdia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography


SIDE NOTE: Laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."


QUESTIONS FOR DEBATE:
1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the 60 elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? Or is this evidence for the existence an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome?

3. Evolution relies upon things happening by chance aka at random. If evolution were a fact, how does it account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"? [/font]

[ThatGirlAgain]

[font=Verdana]For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"


The reverse of precision is an accident aka a spontaneous event that happen by chance with no one guiding the outcome. Websters New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results"


Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us. This precision renders the evolution theory mere fiction, for precision leaves no room for error or for accidental events. Take, for example, the first discovered 60 elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of these 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms--from which the Earth's elements are made--are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopdia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography


SIDE NOTE: Laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."


QUESTIONS FOR DEBATE:
1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the 60 elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? Or is this evidence for the existence an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome?

3. Evolution relies upon things happening by chance aka at random. If evolution were a fact, how does it account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"? [/font]

The structure of the Periodic Table of the Elements has a much simpler explanation than it being designed precisely that way. The elements and their characteristics exist because of the nature of the proton and the electron and the rules of quantum mechanics. These in turn appear to arise from yet simpler bases. The laws of physics might be inherently arbitrary and there are certainly a fair number of free parameters in them that might have had other values. It could be argued that these are the result of an intelligent designer. But when one looks at the universe that resulted from these laws and parameters, it is pretty clear that we are nowhere near the main purpose, even if we are more than an accidental byproduct.

God? Maybe. Religion? No way.

[Artie]

[font=Verdana]Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us. This precision renders the evolution theory mere fiction,

I'm sorry to say that the OP is a complete misunderstanding of the Theory of Evolution. The Theory of Evolution has nothing to do with elements or the Periodic Table. The Theory of Evolution states "Evolution is any change across successive generations in the heritable characteristics of biological populations." Wikipedia

3. Evolution relies upon things happening by chance aka at random.

No it doesn't. On the contrary. "There is probably no other statement which is a better indication that the arguer doesn't understand evolution. Chance certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance. Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations. Those variations which give greater reproductive success to their possessors (and chance ensures that such beneficial mutations will be inevitable) are retained, and less successful variations are weeded out. When the environment changes, or when organisms move to a different environment, different variations are selected, leading eventually to different species." http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

If evolution were a fact, how does it account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"? [/font]

Evolution has nothing to do with the Periodic Table or elements. This post shows such a confusion that I strongly suggest that you teach yourself what evolution actually is before you write anymore.

[LiamOS]

Were it not for the precise relationship among the 60 elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

No.
Having said that, if it weren't for such precise relationships, the universe would be a mess of radiation and fundamental particles, and we wouldn't be there to determine its niceties.

Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? Or is this evidence for the existence an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome?

It is not evidence for any such proposed theories. To argue that it is would be akin to a puddle arguing that its hole had been perfectly designed for it(That may well be the case, but the puddle exists in the same state regardless).

Evolution relies upon things happening by chance aka at random. If evolution were a fact, how does it account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"?

There are so many things wrong here...

Firstly, let's consider the term 'Law'. Newton's Laws are all wrong, Hooke's Law is wrong, Lenz's law is wrong, and many others are too. The term Law simply attributes an explanatory relation, usually expressed mathematically as a function of one or more variables. Something being called a Law means very little, essentially.

Secondly, evolution requires randomness in a completely different physical sense to what atomic physics concerns itself with. Essentially, atoms and all their constituent particles behave 'randomly', in accordance with their wavefunctions. Atomic existence is made delightfully precise by the quantization of energy, momentum and such at a fundamental level, despite the random behavior.
Evolution is partially a result of this random phenomenon manifesting at a genetic level, resulting in changes to DNA, RNA, cell structure, etc.


Essentially, the theory of evolution does not account for the order we observe in the quantum world. However, both the order and disorder we observe in the quantum world account for evolution.

[Alter2Ego]

[font=Verdana]Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us. This precision renders the evolution theory mere fiction,

I'm sorry to say that the OP is a complete misunderstanding of the Theory of Evolution. The Theory of Evolution has nothing to do with elements or the Periodic Table. The Theory of Evolution states "Evolution is any change across successive generations in the heritable characteristics of biological populations." Wikipedia

ALTER2EGO QUOTE: 3. Evolution relies upon things happening by chance aka at random.

No it doesn't. On the contrary. "There is probably no other statement which is a better indication that the arguer doesn't understand evolution. Chance certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance. Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations. Those variations which give greater reproductive success to their possessors (and chance ensures that such beneficial mutations will be inevitable) are retained, and less successful variations are weeded out. When the environment changes, or when organisms move to a different environment, different variations are selected, leading eventually to different species." http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

ALTER2EGO QUOTE: If evolution were a fact, how does it account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"?[/font]

Evolution has nothing to do with the Periodic Table or elements. This post shows such a confusion that I strongly suggest that you teach yourself what evolution actually is before you write anymore.

[font=Verdana]ARTIE:
I'm sorry to say that the OP is a complete misunderstanding of the Theory of Evolution. The Theory of Evolution has nothing to do with elements or the Periodic Table. The Theory of Evolution states "Evolution is any change across successive generations in the heritable characteristics of biological populations." Wikipedia

ALTER2EGO:
I did not assert that the Periodic Table of the Elements resulted from evolution. The Periodic Table was introduced into this debate to alert readers to the following issue: How could random, accidental events--where nobody is directing the outcome (which is what evolution boils down to)--result in 60 PRECISE elements that are all INTERRELATED? So much so, that the Periodic Table of the Elements is considered a LAW?

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ARTIE:
Chance certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance. Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations. Those variations which give greater reproductive success to their possessors (and chance ensures that such beneficial mutations will be inevitable) are retained, and less successful variations are weeded out. When the environment changes, or when organisms move to a different environment, different variations are selected, leading eventually to different species."

ALTER2EGO:
So your position is that mutations are beneficial and that mutations are the driving force behind "the raw material that natural selection has to work with"?[/font]

[Alter2Ego]

Were it not for the precise relationship among the 60 elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

No.
Having said that, if it weren't for such precise relationships, the universe would be a mess of radiation and fundamental particles, and we wouldn't be there to determine its niceties.

Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? Or is this evidence for the existence an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome?

It is not evidence for any such proposed theories. To argue that it is would be akin to a puddle arguing that its hole had been perfectly designed for it(That may well be the case, but the puddle exists in the same state regardless).

Evolution relies upon things happening by chance aka at random. If evolution were a fact, how does it account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"?

There are so many things wrong here...

Firstly, let's consider the term 'Law'. Newton's Laws are all wrong, Hooke's Law is wrong, Lenz's law is wrong, and many others are too. The term Law simply attributes an explanatory relation, usually expressed mathematically as a function of one or more variables. Something being called a Law means very little, essentially.

Secondly, evolution requires randomness in a completely different physical sense to what atomic physics concerns itself with. Essentially, atoms and all their constituent particles behave 'randomly', in accordance with their wavefunctions. Atomic existence is made delightfully precise by the quantization of energy, momentum and such at a fundamental level, despite the random behavior.
Evolution is partially a result of this random phenomenon manifesting at a genetic level, resulting in changes to DNA, RNA, cell structure, etc.


Essentially, the theory of evolution does not account for the order we observe in the quantum world. However, both the order and disorder we observe in the quantum world account for evolution.

[font=Verdana]AKI THE PIRATE:
It is not evidence for any such proposed theories. To argue that it is would be akin to a puddle arguing that its hole had been perfectly designed for it(That may well be the case, but the puddle exists in the same state regardless).

ALTER2EGO:
You said in your quotation above that the precision in the first 60 elements of the Periodic Table of Elements is not evidence of an intelligent Designer/God. In that case, tell us, what is that precision evidence of?

[center]********************[/center]
AKI THE PIRATE:
Firstly, let's consider the term 'Law'. Newton's Laws are all wrong, Hooke's Law is wrong, Lenz's law is wrong, and many others are too. The term Law simply attributes an explanatory relation, usually expressed mathematically as a function of one or more variables. Something being called a Law means very little, essentially.

ALTER2EGO:
My Opening post is not in reference to Newton's, Hooke's, or Lenz's law. You are referring to flawed definitions of "law." Let me repeat my earlier definition of "law as found in nature," as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary.

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."

The definition quoted above is what applies to the Periodic Table of the Elements. We know this is an accurate definition as concerns the Periodic Table, because as stated in my Opening Post, scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr RELIED upon "unvarying uniformity" to correctly theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted.[/font]

[Haven]

You said in your quotation above that the precision in the first 60 elements of the Periodic Table of Elements is not evidence of an intelligent Designer/God. In that case, tell us, what is that precision evidence of?

Uniformity does not equal design. There is nothing problematic about a uniform standard of elements that arose through purely naturalistic, unintelligent processes.

If things were different, we'd never know the difference.

[Artie]

ALTER2EGO said:
So your position is that mutations are beneficial and that mutations are the driving force behind "the raw material that natural selection has to work with"?

No, my position is that some mutations are weakly beneficial. "Studies in the fly Drosophila melanogaster suggest that if a mutation changes a protein produced by a gene, this will probably be harmful, with about 70 percent of these mutations having damaging effects, and the remainder being either neutral or weakly beneficial." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation

[Artie]

Alter2Ego said: "how does it account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"?"

Every puddle of water on the planet, from a drop to an ocean fits precisely into the hole it occupies. But people usually don't believe that someone created every hole and every puddle to fit perfectly with each other. The water simply adapts it's shape to fit the hole according to physical laws. Your 60 discovered elements are simply the equivalent to holes and water. Nothing supernatural about that.

[gnuman05]

[font=Verdana]1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the 60 elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?[/font]

A: That's an easy one, no. If so, then your comparison of precise elements to biological evolution would be a valid argument and to us, hydrogen wouldn't be the most abundant element in the universe, a "Honda Element" would.

[font=Verdana]
2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? Or is this evidence for the existence an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome?[/font]

A: The theory of the "Big bang" is a more accurate concept and could be used as clear evidence for this question, rather than the postulation of a God/ID. I suggest you read a book on physics and particle theory.

[font=Verdana]
3. Evolution relies upon things happening by chance aka at random. If evolution were a fact, how does it account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"?[/font]

A: No, not all of evolution relies on arbitrary events. There are different forms in which evolution occurs, namely: natural selection through adaptation, genetic drift and mutation. Other than genetic drift & mutation, natural selection is not just random, however, it's not necessarily precise.

There is an intrinsic benefit of evolution, and I guarantee that with out it, we wouldn't be having a semi-intellectual conversation over the INTERNET.

Now, why would the theory of evolution have to account for a separate form of science, other than biology? Which is what it was intended for.

Once you start to learn about the world of probabilities you'll discover that there are many things in this world that are precise and not precise. It is this balance that keeps our world from collapsing on itself. Observing the atomically, small world reveals the most precession, for if it was not, pieces of matter would just be floating randomly around us. Evolution, although a biological necessity, on the other hand does not always favor precision, for if it did, there would be no room to evolve and the concept of evolution would be dead. Although things have evolved due to specific events, areas and climate, if all of evolution favored precision, then the cornucopia of species presiding here on earth would not still be evolving, and we most certainly are.

If evolution, in its entirety, were to favor precision, what would be our precise purpose on this earth? To consume and populate more than we do now? To argue even more over who's fictitious entity is truth? Could you even identify our precise purpose in your world of no evolution, other than, (through a Christian world view) to just acknowledge God and please him by praise and indubitable reasoning? How does that world account for my purpose? Given that I don't even believe this God exists and question the nature of my world. I'm sorry but the precision of God/ID, certainly has not graced this world. Balance is the very essence of our physical world and with that being said, there is no room for a superlative, supernatural being.