The Bible: Gods Word or Mans?

[Alter2Ego]

[font=Verdana]There are various types of religions in existence with their own sacred books called bibles. As a result, many people believe that all religions are valid and that they are simply different roads to the same place. Along that line, many feel that no type of religion can lay claim to which type of religious bible is really the word of God. For instance, Muslims claim the Koran is the correct bible, while Christians claim the Judeo-Christian Bible is the right one.

The difference between the Judeo-Christian Bible and other religious books is that there is EVIDENCE showing the Judeo-Christian Bible was inspired by Almighty God. No other religious book has been able to prove such. For instance, hundreds of Bible prophesies have been fulfilled, some written centuries before the fulfillment of the prophesied events. Secular history and archeology bears this out. In addition, Bible writers were privy to information that was not discovered by scientists and explorers until centuries later. Below are two such examples.

Example #1: For a period of time in history, humans thought the earth was flat and that if one sailed too far out to sea, one was likely to sail off the earth. By the 15th Century when Christopher Columbus claimed he discovered the new world, most Europeans correctly theorized that the earth is a circle or sphere. However, it was not until after Columbus literally sailed around the globe that this theory was proven as fact. More than 2,000 years before Christopher Columbus sailed around the globe, the prophet Isaiah did not merely theorize but stated that the earth is a circle. Isaiah was inspired by God to write:

"{22} There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gaze, who spread them out like a tent in which to dwell, {28} Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary. There is no searching out of his understanding." (Isaiah 40:22 and 28)

SIDE NOTE: Circles can be 2D (flat) or 3D (an ORB or a SPHERE)


Example #2: Prior to the 17th century, none of the best scientific minds could explain what causes the earth to be positioned in a stable orbit. Then in 1687, Isaac Newton published his theory that gravitational forces are the explanation behind the earth's stability. (Gravity is also the reason why humans can move around without fear of toppling off the earth into space.) More than 3,000 years before Newton's existence, under divine inspiration Moses wrote that the earth hangs upon nothing (indicating gravity), as follows:

"He [God] is stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon nothing;..." (Job 26:7)


DEBATE QUESTIONS:
1. How could Isaiah have known that the earth is circular, considering that the writing of the book of Isaiah was completed in 732 B.C.E. and Christopher Columbus did not make his first journey across the Atlantic until 1492 AD/CE or 2,224 years AFTER Isaiah wrote that the earth is a circle?
http://www.history.com/topics/christopher-columbus


2. How did Job know that the earth hangs upon nothing--indicating gravity--considering that the book of Job was completed in 1473 B.C.E. and it wasn't until 1687 AD/CE that Isaac Newton published his theory about gravitational forces--3,160 years AFTER Moses wrote that the earth hangs upon nothing?
http://inventors.about.com/library/i...s/blnewton.htm


3. Where did Isaiah and Moses get this info?[/font]

[Alter2Ego]

[font=Verdana]THATGUY:

The authors, whoever they were, were very much the products of their times. The Biblical structure of the Universe was borrowed from the other cultures in the region. The Babylonians viewed the universe as a circle in the sense of a disk with waters under the earth and fixed domes over it, firmaments, in which stars were set and through which rain poured.

Here's a discussion, for instance: http://www.religioustolerance.org/cosmo_bibl1.htm

ALTER2EGO:
For centuries humans thought the earth was flat and that if one sailed too far, one would fall off. You are simply repeating what I already said in my opening post. I did not say Columbus and his contemporaries thought this. I said the people of Isaiah's time thought it and other people felt the same way for centuries after Isaiah.

Your claim that the Babylonians and other cultures had the same ideas about the earth, during the time of Isaiah's writing, is erroneous. At the time of the writing of Isaiah in 732 B.C.E, the Babylonians were ignorant of the shape of the earth. It wasn't until 500 B.C.E.--or 232 years AFTER Isaiah's writings--that the Greeks finally figured out that the earth is circular, as stated by the following U.S. Government website:

"It has actually been known that the Earth was round since the time of the ancient Greeks. I believe that it was Pythagoras who first proposed that the Earth was round sometime around 500 B.C. As I recall, he based his idea on the fact that he showed the Moon must be round by observing the shape of the terminator (the line between the part of the Moon in light and the part of the Moon in the dark) as it moved through its orbital cycle. Pythagoras reasoned that if the Moon was round, then the Earth must be round as well. After that, sometime between 500 B.C. and 430 B.C., a fellow called Anaxagoras determined the true cause of solar and lunar eclipses - and then the shape of the Earth's shadow on the Moon during a lunar eclipse was also used as evidence that the Earth was round." http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/Sta ... ion54.html


In case you didn't realize it, 732 B.C.E. is further back in time than 500 B.C.E. Furthermore, your assertion that Bible writers copied from pagans is erroneous for the following reasons:

1. The Bible writers were monotheistic (they served only one God, Jehovah), while the surrounding nations were polytheistic (meaning they served many gods). Therefore, the monotheistic writers of the Bible would not have copied the writings of polytheistic pagans. By what logic are you making such a ludicrous claim?

2. Not only are there are no similarities in Biblical text to the writings of other ancient peoples, the Mosaic Law (found in the Bible) contained instructions that protected the ancient Israelites from diseases that were wiping out people in the surrounding nations.

3. The Bible contains hundreds of accurately fulfilled Bible prophesies which are not to be found in any religious text of pagans.

THATGUY:

As to Columbus, the story is quite different. He didn't, for instance, circumnavigate. All educated people knew the Earth was round at the time. The consensus was that the Earth was a particular size. Columbus bucked conventional wisdom. He had the Secret of the Earth's Size that the Educated Elite Don't Want You to Know. He argued that the Earth was smaller than the egghead professors said. Therefore, India wasn't nearly as far away and could be reached by sailing around the world in the other direction. It turns out the conventional wisdom was right, Columbus was wrong. He grossly underestimated the circumference of the globe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

ALTER2EGO:
You are again repeating what I said in my opening post: that by the time Columbus sailed around the globe, most educated people "theorized" that the earth was circular. Theory is not proof. Columbus' voyages confirmed the theory to be fact. You telling me all that other stuff about his mistakes along the way isn't relevant. It does not affect or change the fact that it was his journey around the globe--literally--that proved what Isaiah had written more than 2,200 years prior: that the earth is circular.[/font]

[Goat]

[font=Verdana]THATGUY:

The authors, whoever they were, were very much the products of their times. The Biblical structure of the Universe was borrowed from the other cultures in the region. The Babylonians viewed the universe as a circle in the sense of a disk with waters under the earth and fixed domes over it, firmaments, in which stars were set and through which rain poured.

Here's a discussion, for instance: http://www.religioustolerance.org/cosmo_bibl1.htm

ALTER2EGO:
For centuries humans thought the earth was flat and that if one sailed too far, one would fall off. You are simply repeating what I already said in my opening post. I did not say Columbus and his contemporaries thought this. I said the people of Isaiah's time thought it and other people felt the same way for centuries after Isaiah.

Your claim that the Babylonians and other cultures had the same ideas about the earth, during the time of Isaiah's writing, is erroneous. At the time of the writing of Isaiah in 732 B.C.E, the Babylonians were ignorant of the shape of the earth. It wasn't until 500 B.C.E.--or 232 years AFTER Isaiah's writings--that the Greeks finally figured out that the earth is circular, as stated by the following U.S. Government website:

"It has actually been known that the Earth was round since the time of the ancient Greeks. I believe that it was Pythagoras who first proposed that the Earth was round sometime around 500 B.C. As I recall, he based his idea on the fact that he showed the Moon must be round by observing the shape of the terminator (the line between the part of the Moon in light and the part of the Moon in the dark) as it moved through its orbital cycle. Pythagoras reasoned that if the Moon was round, then the Earth must be round as well. After that, sometime between 500 B.C. and 430 B.C., a fellow called Anaxagoras determined the true cause of solar and lunar eclipses - and then the shape of the Earth's shadow on the Moon during a lunar eclipse was also used as evidence that the Earth was round." http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/Sta ... ion54.html


In case you didn't realize it, 732 B.C.E. is further back in time than 500 B.C.E. Furthermore, your assertion that Bible writers copied from pagans is erroneous for the following reasons:

1. The Bible writers were monotheistic (they served only one God, Jehovah), while the surrounding nations were polytheistic (meaning they served many gods). Therefore, the monotheistic writers of the Bible would not have copied the writings of polytheistic pagans. By what logic are you making such a ludicrous claim?

2. Not only are there are no similarities in Biblical text to the writings of other ancient peoples, the Mosaic Law (found in the Bible) contained instructions that protected the ancient Israelites from diseases that were wiping out people in the surrounding nations.

3. The Bible contains hundreds of accurately fulfilled Bible prophesies which are not to be found in any religious text of pagans.

THATGUY:

As to Columbus, the story is quite different. He didn't, for instance, circumnavigate. All educated people knew the Earth was round at the time. The consensus was that the Earth was a particular size. Columbus bucked conventional wisdom. He had the Secret of the Earth's Size that the Educated Elite Don't Want You to Know. He argued that the Earth was smaller than the egghead professors said. Therefore, India wasn't nearly as far away and could be reached by sailing around the world in the other direction. It turns out the conventional wisdom was right, Columbus was wrong. He grossly underestimated the circumference of the globe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

ALTER2EGO:
You are again repeating what I said in my opening post: that by the time Columbus sailed around the globe, most educated people "theorized" that the earth was circular. Theory is not proof. Columbus' voyages confirmed the theory to be fact. You telling me all that other stuff about his mistakes along the way isn't relevant. It does not affect or change the fact that it was his journey around the globe--literally--that proved what Isaiah had written more than 2,200 years prior: that the earth is circular.[/font]

Yet, you did not respond to the concept the Hebrew (remember, Isaiah wrote in Hebrew), that the term Chugh , which was 'Circle of the earth' meant a two dimensional circle. .. if he meant 'ball' and 'globe', he would have used the term 'Dur'.

If you have any questions on this, go ask your local Rabbi, and he will explain the Hebrew.

[Alter2Ego]

[font=Verdana]MCCULLOCH

For instance, hundreds of Bible prophesies have been fulfilled, some written centuries before the fulfillment of the prophesied events.

A few really good examples would help your case here. One of the problems with this claim is illustrated with the born in Bethlehem prophesy. The writers of the Gospels, knew from their Hebrew scriptures that the messiah should be born in Bethlehem. They wrote their books with the express purpose of convincing late first century people that the early first century preacher, Jesus was that messiah. So, where do you think that they put his birth in their narratives? Even if Jesus had been born in Allentown, they would have claimed that he was born in Bethlehem!

ALTER2EGO:
I intend to present a few examples of Bible prophesies that were fulfilled for the benefit of all interested parties. As for your objection about the fulfillment of prophecy in which Jesus was born in Bethlehem, I gather that you are saying the New Testament writers lied about where Jesus was born in order to fulfill what was written in the Old Testament. In effect, your problem is skepticism and a deliberate decision on your part to not believe what's in the Bible.

So what do you want me to do about your decision to not believe? I'm supposed to cry about it and beg you to believe? If you don't feel like believing what's written in the Bible--now that you've convinced yourself that everything written therein is valueless--be my guest and not believe. You're not the first atheist and non-believer I've met online or off-line, and I'm positive you won't be the last. I kid you not.[/font]

[Alter2Ego]

[font=Verdana]MCCULLOCH

In addition, Bible writers were privy to information that was not discovered by scientists and explorers until centuries later.

For a period of time in history, humans thought the earth was flat and that if one sailed too far out to sea, one was likely to sail off the earth. By the 15th Century when Christopher Columbus claimed he discovered the new world, most Europeans correctly theorized that the earth is a circle or sphere. However, it was not until after Columbus literally sailed around the globe that this theory was proven as fact. More than 2,000 years before Christopher Columbus sailed around the globe, the prophet Isaiah did not merely theorize but stated that the earth is a circle.

The Greeks knew that the earth was spherical beginning with Pythagoras (6th century BC). The misconception that educated Europeans at the time of Columbus believed in a flat Earth, and that his voyages refuted that belief, has been referred to as "The Myth of the Flat Earth". In 1945, it was listed by the Historical Association (of Britain) as the second of 20 in a pamphlet on common errors in history. Christopher Columbus never did sail around the globe. Columbus mistakenly calculated the radius of the Earth as being much smaller than it actually is. His voyage east to find China, was reckoned to be a recipe for disaster according to the knowledge of the time. He would run out of supplies before arriving. Lucky for him, there was two large but unknown (to Europeans) continents in between. He mistakenly thought that he had reached the Indies and therefore called the aboriginal peoples Indians.

Isaiah's statement is at best somewhat ambiguous, circle or sphere, and is thus not conclusive evidence. If you are going to make a case for divine inspiration, you really should find one that is a bit stronger and based on accurate history. Why would you lead with such a weak example?

ALTER2EGO:
Isaiah wrote about the shape of the earth more than 200 years before the Greeks figured it out.

BTW: What makes you think my Opening Post is for the benefit of atheists, agnostics, and skeptics who will disagree with anything simply for the sake of disagreeing? If Isaiah had spelled out the word S-P-H-E-R-E in the Bible, some people would have come up with the objection that it was added in after the fact by modern translators or some such nonsense. In other words, non-belief is a premeditated choice. That's why I don't waste time trying to convince people who are determined to not be convinced of whatever argument I'm presenting. I would be naïve if I were to think everybody reading what I post will agree with the info in my posts.

In any event, see my responses to THATGUY directly above on page 3 of this thread. In my response to him, I provided evidence of that the Greeks came out with the info about the shape of the earth more than 200 years after Isaiah. My response to THATGUY covers just about everything you're saying here--including your arguments about Christopher Columbus.[/font]

[Abraxas]

[font=Verdana]MCCULLOCH

For instance, hundreds of Bible prophesies have been fulfilled, some written centuries before the fulfillment of the prophesied events.

A few really good examples would help your case here. One of the problems with this claim is illustrated with the born in Bethlehem prophesy. The writers of the Gospels, knew from their Hebrew scriptures that the messiah should be born in Bethlehem. They wrote their books with the express purpose of convincing late first century people that the early first century preacher, Jesus was that messiah. So, where do you think that they put his birth in their narratives? Even if Jesus had been born in Allentown, they would have claimed that he was born in Bethlehem!

ALTER2EGO:
I intend to present a few examples of Bible prophesies that were fulfilled for the benefit of all interested parties.

Please do. I'll bet for every prophecy you claim was fulfilled, I can find two that weren't and probably find a reason yours either wasn't a prophecy or wasn't fulfilled either.

As for your objection about the fulfillment of prophecy in which Jesus was born in Bethlehem, I gather that you are saying the New Testament writers lied about where Jesus was born in order to fulfill what was written in the Old Testament. In effect, your problem is skepticism and a deliberate decision on your part to not believe what's in the Bible.

So what do you want me to do about your decision to not believe? I'm supposed to cry about it and beg you to believe? If you don't feel like believing what's written in the Bible--now that you've convinced yourself that everything written therein is valueless--be my guest and not believe. You're not the first atheist and non-believer I've met online or off-line, and I'm positive you won't be the last. I kid you not.[/font]

You might try, I don't know, examining the reasons he doesn't believe and see if they have merit. For example, you might check and see if the flimsy pretext for why Mary would have been in Bethlehem at the time ever happened, namely a census the Romans took no records of but kept for countless others, and went way outside their normal methods for conducting one, or for that matter if any of the other events surrounding his birth happened, such as the mass extermination of infants by Herod that nobody seemed to notice were plausible from the same source. Yes, that sounds like a reasonable idea, an impartial and objective analysis of what we know and why we know it. Sound good to you?

[Alter2Ego]

You are again repeating what I said in my opening post: that by the time Columbus sailed around the globe, most educated people "theorized" that the earth was circular. Theory is not proof. Columbus' voyages confirmed the theory to be fact. You telling me all that other stuff about his mistakes along the way isn't relevant. It does not affect or change the fact that it was his journey around the globe--literally--that proved what Isaiah had written more than 2,200 years prior: that the earth is circular.

Yet, you did not respond to the concept the Hebrew (remember, Isaiah wrote in Hebrew), that the term Chugh , which was 'Circle of the earth' meant a two dimensional circle. .. if he meant 'ball' and 'globe', he would have used the term 'Dur'.

If you have any questions on this, go ask your local Rabbi, and he will explain the Hebrew.

[font=Verdana]ALTER2EGO -to- GOAT:

The Bible was written under Divine inspiration of Almighty God who knows more than any Rabbi that the earth is a sphere. So when Isaiah wrote the word "circle" under divine inspiration, he was referring to a 3D circle aka a sphere or an orb. Isaiah and Job knew the earth was circular and that it "hung upon nothing" centuries ahead of people in surrounding cultures.

I have no need to make inquiries to a Jewish Rabbi about the word Circle being 2D or 3D in the Bible. You're the one who has issues with it, not me. I've been to different websites--including Jewish websites--where every Tom, Dick, and Harry is arguing back and forth as to whether Isaiah was talking about a 2D (flat) circle or a 3D (spherical) circle. Do you think I'm going to wear myself out playing semantics and trying to convince people who are determined NOT TO BELIEVE?


Nah! I'll pass.[/font]

[Alter2Ego]

I intend to present a few examples of Bible prophesies that were fulfilled for the benefit of all interested parties.

Please do. I'll bet for every prophecy you claim was fulfilled, I can find two that weren't and probably find a reason yours either wasn't a prophecy or wasn't fulfilled either.

[font=Verdana]ALTER2EGO -to- ABRAXAS:
Since my future presentation of fulfilled Bible prophecies is for the benefit of those that are interested--and you obviously are not--it matters not to me that you (or other non-believers) reject the evidence. I really don't care one way or the other. The info is being posted in this thread for those who want it. This is after all a democracy where people are free to make choices. [/font]

[Alter2Ego]

A few really good examples would help your case here. One of the problems with this claim is illustrated with the born in Bethlehem prophesy. The writers of the Gospels, knew from their Hebrew scriptures that the messiah should be born in Bethlehem. They wrote their books with the express purpose of convincing late first century people that the early first century preacher, Jesus was that messiah. So, where do you think that they put his birth in their narratives? Even if Jesus had been born in Allentown, they would have claimed that he was born in Bethlehem!

So what do you want me to do about your decision to not believe? I'm supposed to cry about it and beg you to believe? If you don't feel like believing what's written in the Bible--now that you've convinced yourself that everything written therein is valueless--be my guest and not believe. You're not the first atheist and non-believer I've met online or off-line, and I'm positive you won't be the last. I kid you not.

You might try, I don't know, examining the reasons he doesn't believe and see if they have merit. For example, you might check and see if the flimsy pretext for why Mary would have been in Bethlehem at the time ever happened, namely a census the Romans took no records of but kept for countless others, and went way outside their normal methods for conducting one, or for that matter if any of the other events surrounding his birth happened, such as the mass extermination of infants by Herod that nobody seemed to notice were plausible from the same source. Yes, that sounds like a reasonable idea, an impartial and objective analysis of what we know and why we know it. Sound good to you?

[font=Verdana]ALTER2EGO -to- ABRAXAS:
Why don't YOU go ahead and try convincing people who are determined not to believe something. MCCULLOCH is already trying to explain away the birthplace of Jesus Christ as not being Bethlehem--although he provides no evidence to support his OPINION that the disciples lied about Jesus' birthplace.

FYI: A person who chooses to believe that a white egg is black will continue to argue to that effect even when he/she realizes it isn't so. So be my guest and try to convince MCCULLOCH or anybody else of something that they are determined not to believe. It doesn't have to involve the Bible. It simply requires that the person choose not to believe whatever. I guarantee you will not succeed.[/font]

[Abraxas]

A few really good examples would help your case here. One of the problems with this claim is illustrated with the born in Bethlehem prophesy. The writers of the Gospels, knew from their Hebrew scriptures that the messiah should be born in Bethlehem. They wrote their books with the express purpose of convincing late first century people that the early first century preacher, Jesus was that messiah. So, where do you think that they put his birth in their narratives? Even if Jesus had been born in Allentown, they would have claimed that he was born in Bethlehem!

So what do you want me to do about your decision to not believe? I'm supposed to cry about it and beg you to believe? If you don't feel like believing what's written in the Bible--now that you've convinced yourself that everything written therein is valueless--be my guest and not believe. You're not the first atheist and non-believer I've met online or off-line, and I'm positive you won't be the last. I kid you not.

You might try, I don't know, examining the reasons he doesn't believe and see if they have merit. For example, you might check and see if the flimsy pretext for why Mary would have been in Bethlehem at the time ever happened, namely a census the Romans took no records of but kept for countless others, and went way outside their normal methods for conducting one, or for that matter if any of the other events surrounding his birth happened, such as the mass extermination of infants by Herod that nobody seemed to notice were plausible from the same source. Yes, that sounds like a reasonable idea, an impartial and objective analysis of what we know and why we know it. Sound good to you?

[font=Verdana]ALTER2EGO -to- ABRAXAS:
Why don't YOU go ahead and try convincing people who are determined not to believe something. MCCULLOCH is already trying to explain away the birthplace of Jesus Christ as not being Bethlehem--although he provides no evidence to support his OPINION that the disciples lied about Jesus' birthplace.

FYI: A person who chooses to believe that a white egg is black will continue to argue to that effect even when he/she realizes it isn't so. So be my guest and try to convince MCCULLOCH or anybody else of something that they are determined not to believe. It doesn't have to involve the Bible. It simply requires that the person choose not to believe whatever. I guarantee you will not succeed.[/font]

You could have saved a lot of space and time by just saying "no, an impartial and objective analysis of the facts does not sound good to me because I would rather preach than weigh evidence and would rather accuse people of deliberately ignoring evidence than providing any"

Note I did provide evidence, three pieces of it, and you still dismissed me out of hand while ignoring the content. Are you going to address that 1. there is no record of the census that supposedly drew Mary to Bethlehem despite other Roman census records, 2. Romans did not require people to return home for a census to begin with, and 3. Other events from the same sources seem to never have happened either. Will you address any of this or just claim again I don't want to believe as a means to avoid having to debate in the debate forum.

This is after all a democracy where people are free to make choices.

History is not subject to democracy. Logic is not subject to democracy. Reality is not subject to democracy.

[TheJackelantern]

Before I bother addressing your things like saying that Adam wasn't being spoken to in the Garden because it's not specifically in the verse (despite them BEING IN THE GARDEN in the context) or what is possible in people's dreams, let's start here: I see you mentioned it, but either totally failed to understand the context of the meaning of the word "light", or you are deliberately ignoring what I said about how it's the same word.

The bible states the moon is one of the lights placed in the sky.. And let's read the actual context:

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.� And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night.

Highlighted section is rather important.. They actually believed the moon was a light placed in the sky.. Well it's not.. And they never even understood what an ellipse was or why it was happening in that era either.

or what is possible in people's dreams

Sorry, but there is no means to imagine or see the entire world from atop of a mountain.. This requires you ignoring what an oblate sphere is.. So feel free to explain how you overcome the curvature of the Earth from within a dream. I can't even imagine the whole world even as a flat map vs dream it since that would require more information than you can even gather with a satellite in orbit around Earth... Perhaps he should have drawn what he saw? Or made a map..