Is Hellfire A Bible Teaching

[Alter2Ego]

[font=Verdana]The teaching of hellfire is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity"as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (Jeremiah 7:31)


"{58} And they kept offending him with their high places, and with their graven images they kept inciting him to jealousy. {59} God heard and got to be furious, and he condemned Israel very much. {60} And he finally forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent in which he resided among earthling men." (Psalms 78:58-60)


The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankinds common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. Im referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


NOTE #1: The Bible uses the word "fire" symbolically to indicate permanent death or permanent destruction.

NOTE #2: the words "Hell" and "Hades" and "Pit" are synonyms that mean THE GRAVE.

NOTE #3: "High Places" as used in the scriptures that I quote in this thread refer to the worship of the false gods.


DEBATE QUESTIONS:
1. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?

2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?

3. According to Jeremiah 7:31 and Psalms 78:58-59, did the ancient Israelites offend God by getting involved with false worship in their "HIGH PLACES", which included burning people to death?

4. According to those who teach hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked and sinful. If Hellfire is for wicked people, why did Jesus spend three days in hell--considering that it says at 1 Peter 2:22 that he did not commit any sin?

5. Jesus obeyed Jehovah and died a slow and torturous death for mankind. Hadn't he suffered enough? He'd suffered terribly--because of being obedient to his Heavenly Father. So why was he being punished again with burning hellfire? What's the logic for punishing him all over again?

6. Recall that after Jesus' resurrection, he appeared and spoke to several of his faithful apostles on different occasions before he returned to heaven. Why is it that Jesus made no mention to any of his apostles--after his resurrection--that he went to hell where he burned for three days?

7. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?

8. Those who believe in eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Is it something separate from the person's body? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?[/font]

[Alter2Ego]

[font=Verdana]JOEY KNOTHEAD

3. According to Jeremiah 7:31 and Psalms 78:58-59, did the ancient Israelites offend God by getting involved with false worship in their "HIGH PLACES", which included burning people to death?

58 For they provoked him to anger with their high places; they moved him to jealousy with their idols.
59 When God heard, he was full of wrath, and he utterly rejected Israel.

If the tale be believed, this would seem the case.

ALTER2EGO:
Whether or not you choose to believe what the Bible says is irrelevant. The point of this exercise is about what the Bible says. And according to the Bible, the ancient Israelites offended God when they embark on this behavior.

JOEY KNOTHEAD

7. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?

It would seem that being aware of it'd be part of the deal.

ALTER2EGO:
Yes, as you conceded, people would have to be aware that they are burning in hellfire in order for the punishment to make sense. According to the Bible, the dead are not conscious of anything. So there goes the fallacy of literal hellfire--showing that the teaching is not Bible-based.

"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for THE DEAD, they are CONSCIOUS OF NOTHING AT ALL, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)


"All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:10)



JOEY KNOTHEAD

8. Those who believe in eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul?

The part of the body that gets all that tormenting done to it. Other'n that, I have no clue.

Is it something separate from the person's body?

ALTER2EGO:
I will explain the "soul" to you in a future post. Remind me in case I forget. [/font]

[Alter2Ego]

DEBATE QUESTIONS:
1. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?

2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?

Le 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
Le 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.


Le 20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

Le 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Yah burned people with fire Himself and ordered it done for those that violated certain laws! Lets not forget the destruction of the city of Sodom.

[font=Verdana]ALTER2EGO -to- YAHU:
If you go back and read paragraph 2 of my opening post, you will notice that I made a distinction about people being burned to dead for rituals of worship. I made that point not just by directing attention to Jeremiah 7:31, but by saying the following:

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

True, on a few occasions God destroyed people with fire. But this was only done in extreme circumstances when the behavior was wickedly deplorable. When God used fire at Sodom and Gomorrah and in the few other instances mentioned in the Bible, this was not something that was done on an ongoing basis. Furthermore, the instant the person burned to death, the pain of the fire ended. How do you compare that with Christendom's hellfire doctrine which says people burn for all eternity?

For that matter, how do you compare that with burning innocent children to death--routinely--as part of a frequent ritual? This was an ongoing thing, and these were innocent children being burned to death, not outrageously wicked people like those God executed with fire. Furthermore, these children were being sacrificed to pagan gods. So it was offensive to Jehovah on every front.

Similarly, Christendom's hellfire doctrine defames God by depicting him as a sadist who burns people in hellfire--on a ongoing basis for all eternity. What is it about that don't you get?[/font]

[Moses Yoder]

Below are references to a lake of fire found in the book of Revelation. Note especially the last reference. If you a re curios, I would suggest looking up the context to learn more about them. Copied and pasted from biblegateway.com

1.Revelation 19:20
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 19:19-21 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter)
2.Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:9-11 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
3.Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:13-15 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
4.Revelation 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:14-15 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)

Funny thing is, although God is upset when we sacrifice children to other gods by burning them alive, it does not negate the fact that He might use that method Himself to punish those who refuse to believe in Him.

And to clarify, please post the scripture you have found that clearly states Jesus spent three days in hell while waiting to be resurrected.

[myth-one.com]

There are numerous Bible verses indicating that hell is a real place:

And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (Matthew 5:30)

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. (Luke 12:5)

Hell exists presently. The only "inmates" currently are the angels which sinned:

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (II Peter 2:4)

Four words were translated from the original scriptures as hell in the King James Version of the Bible. They are:

Hades and Sheol - The Hebrew word sheol in the Old Testament corresponds to the Greek word Hades in the New Testament.

Gehenna - This Greek word referred to the garbage dump in the valley of Hinnon outside of Jerusalem. Fires were maintained constantly in the dump to burn garbage and prevent disease. Thus the association of Gehenna hell with everlasting fire.

Tartaroo - This Greek word is found only once in the Bible in 2 Peter 2:4. It means to throw into or imprison in Tartarus. Tartarus was thought of by the Greeks as a subterranean place lower than Hades where divine punishment was administered upon fallen angels:

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Tartaroo), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (II Peter 2:4)

If these four words refer to hell, one might assume that in all occurrences they would be translated as hell. But that is not the case. Sheol for example, is translated thirty-one times as "hell," thirty-one times as "grave," and three times as "pit" in the King James Version of the Bible. Therefore, it is obvious that the translators allowed their understanding of the context in which the original words were used to sway their word selection in the translated version.

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But the problem with most Christian organizations is not their belief in hell or hellfire. It is what they mistakenly believe occurs there. Most Christians condemn nonbelievers to eternal torment in the lake of fire.

They are forced to do so because of their belief in the immortal soul.

If man's "soul" lives forever, it must live somewhere, and the Bible does indeed state that nonbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire.

Being immortal, they will consequently suffer their eternally.

What a wonderful "Christian" concept.

And what an ingenious way to destroy the Church. The reason Christianity has failed and will continue to fail is this false belief in the immortality of all mankind.

But who is the genius credited with initiating this false belief?

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Smart snake!

[Tor]

[font=Verdana]The teaching of hellfire is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity"as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

That is a blasphemy and a heresy! Let those who have the authority, knowledge and understanding to interpret the Bible do so, otherwise the number of Protestants and Protestant denomination and their heresies and blasphemies will just keep increasing.
It was a good thing that the Church didn't allow translation of the Bible in the vernacular language; look what happened since it was translated. They knew what would happen. These self proclaimed semi-gods created some 30000 different Christian denominations and still growing.

Jesus explains Hell
http://poemmangod.forumotion.com/t1820- ... light=hell

Jesus gives proper explanation and interpretation of Divine justice.

[myth-one.com]

Here's a quote from:

Oh, you cannot imagine what Hell is! Take everything that is man's torment on earth--fire, flame, ice, submerging waters, hunger, sleeplessness, thirst, wounds, illnesses, sores, and death---sum it up into a single amount and multiply it millions of times. You will have only a shadow of that tremendous truth.

Was that Jesus of Cancun or Cozumel?

Or the Jesus Christ of Florida?

It certainly was not spoken by Jesus Christ of Nazareth in 1944.

Jesus Christ stated that humans cast into hellfire quickly lose life and consciousness for all eternity:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Alter2Ego]

Below are references to a lake of fire found in the book of Revelation. Note especially the last reference. If you a re curios, I would suggest looking up the context to learn more about them. Copied and pasted from biblegateway.com

1.Revelation 19:20
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 19:19-21 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter)
2.Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:9-11 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
3.Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:13-15 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
4.Revelation 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:14-15 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)

Funny thing is, although God is upset when we sacrifice children to other gods by burning them alive, it does not negate the fact that He might use that method Himself to punish those who refuse to believe in Him.

And to clarify, please post the scripture you have found that clearly states Jesus spent three days in hell while waiting to be resurrected.

[font=Verdana]MOSES YODER
3.Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

ALTER2EGO:
Look at the scripture at Revelation 20:14 that you quoted. Notice the portion that I printed in bold where it says: "This is the second death."

The "lake of fire" and "hell" are two entirely different things. Let me break it down for you.

1. The Bible uses "the lake of fire" and "Gehenna" as synonyms--both of which mean permanent destruction or permanent death ("the second death") from where there is no hope of resurrection.

2. Hell and Hades are synonyms that both mean "the grave".


Remember that the book of Revelation uses a great deal of symbolic language. A symbol is a representation of something else. (For instance, the Yield sign is symbolized by a triangle.) Not only is the book of Revelation mostly symbolic language, that fact was stated in the very first verse and very first chapter of the book of Revelation, as follows:

"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and PRESENTED IT IN SIGNS through him to his slave John," (Revelation 1:1)


Now, explain to this forum how literal death and Hades/hell (the grave) could possibly be cast into a lake of fire. Remember, the Bible uses fire to SYMBOLIZE permanent destruction. In other words, Revelation 20:14 is telling us that death and Hades/hell (the grave) will be permanently destroyed. This is made even clearer one chapter later in the same book of Revelation, as follows:

"And he [God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away." (Revelation 21:4)

[center]********************[/center]

MOSES YODER:
Funny thing is, although God is upset when we sacrifice children to other gods by burning them alive, it does not negate the fact that He might use that method Himself to punish those who refuse to believe in Him.

ALTER2EGO:
I gave a detailed answer to this issue to YAHU on page 2 of this thread. In fact, my response to him is directly above your initial post. I hope you will go back and read it.

[center]********************[/center]

MOSES YODER:
And to clarify, please post the scripture you have found that clearly states Jesus spent three days in hell while waiting to be resurrected.

ALTER2EGO:
I posted it in my Opening Post. But here it is again.

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)[/font]

[Mr.Badham]

So, in the Bible the word fire is translated to mean, "Permanent Death" or "Permanent Destruction", except when the word fire is used to describe what the Isrealites did to their children.

I don't think you can tell me that the Bible was mistranslated, and then tell me what it said was proof that it is correct.

I agree with you... the bible is a terrible piece of literature. And I also disagree with you... the bible is a terrible piece of literature.

[Yahu]

DEBATE QUESTIONS:
1. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?

2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?

Le 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
Le 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.


Le 20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

Le 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Yah burned people with fire Himself and ordered it done for those that violated certain laws! Lets not forget the destruction of the city of Sodom.

[font=Verdana]ALTER2EGO -to- YAHU:
If you go back and read paragraph 2 of my opening post, you will notice that I made a distinction about people being burned to dead for rituals of worship. I made that point not just by directing attention to Jeremiah 7:31, but by saying the following:

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

True, on a few occasions God destroyed people with fire. But this was only done in extreme circumstances when the behavior was wickedly deplorable. When God used fire at Sodom and Gomorrah and in the few other instances mentioned in the Bible, this was not something that was done on an ongoing basis. Furthermore, the instant the person burned to death, the pain of the fire ended. How do you compare that with Christendom's hellfire doctrine which says people burn for all eternity?

For that matter, how do you compare that with burning innocent children to death--routinely--as part of a frequent ritual? This was an ongoing thing, and these were innocent children being burned to death, not outrageously wicked people like those God executed with fire. Furthermore, these children were being sacrificed to pagan gods. So it was offensive to Jehovah on every front.

Similarly, Christendom's hellfire doctrine defames God by depicting him as a sadist who burns people in hellfire--on a ongoing basis for all eternity. What is it about that don't you get?[/font]

Yah used ritual burning of sacrifices to atone for sin. Yes He opposed the burning of children because the taking of INNOCENT LIFE is an abomination. The torment of the GUILTY is another matter. Jeremiah is often condemning all the practices of the ancient Canaanite paganism. The burning of the children to Molech was a result of the unwanted children conceived in the grove above in the sexual worship of Baal, Ashtoreth and Asherah while Molech was a god of homosexuality. Jeremiah condemns those practices as well.

The sacrificing of the children in the ancient paganism was to bind the spirits of those children as spiritual servants. That religion was heavily based on witchcraft and control of spiritual forces. Ashtoreth and Asherah are the two primary goddesses of witchcraft.

Isa 57 is a good reference that ties it all together. The 'stone' of the divine mother and the 'stock/tree' of the divine father of Jer 2 are referenced there as well. Just be aware that many bible translations mistranslate Isa 57:9 with 'king' as opposed to 'Molech'. Molech and king are spelled the same in Hebrew. Later vowel pointing was added to use the vowel points for 'shame' to be applied when it is a reference to Molech, ie 'shameful king' and used as a proper name. It was actually just one of the descriptive titles of the ancient pagan sun god.

Death is NOT the end. The spirit is eternal. We are made in the image of Eloyhim. Hell is NOT the eternal judgement. The eternal judgement has NOT been given to anyone yet. We don't KNOW who will be cast into the Lake of Fire. It was created for the angels that sinned. They are eternal. Those that follow them into their error will join them.

The scripture if FULL of references to spirits of the dead in the Hebrew. Not all spirits are in hell. For example Job talks about 'shade of the dead' that dance in the sea. The spirits of Legion went from the demoniac and asked not to be returned to the abyss then ran to the sea in the pigs. Demons are 'evil spirits', 'ruach rah' or 'ruach ra-ah', both male and female. They are spirits of the dead, not fallen angels. Hell/Hades/Sheol/Gehenna is just an abode of spirits of the dead. Even hell is divided up into different parts under different primary principalities. Some of those spirits are the spirits of Nephilim, angelic offspring. Tartarus is the deepest hell and the prison of the angels that took wives and had children by them in Gen 6. They will not be let out until the final judgement of Yahuvah. Even the one who you know of as Lucifer is just the spirit of a dead angelic half-breed. He is 'Lucifer son of the Morning', ie 'Heylel ben Shachar'. Shachar was a Canaanite deity that was a 'son of El' who had children AFTER the flood.

People that see Yahuvah as just a loving god forget He is also a JUST god and a RIGHTEOUS god. He punishes the wicked and rewards the righteous. The JW concept of god is a false representation and is closely related to the concepts of Baal worship. I have studied the ancient paganism for many years. I see the pagan doctrinal influences in many doctrines common today. The pagan concept of burning the children is a perverted copy of the ways of Yah. They burn the innocent instead of the guilty.

[Yahu]

Similarly, Christendom's hellfire doctrine defames God by depicting him as a sadist who burns people in hellfire--on a ongoing basis for all eternity. What is it about that don't you get?[/color][/size][/font]

The 'Fear of Yahuvah' is the beginning of wisdom. Calling Yahuvah sadistic for His righteous judgement is a lack of wisdom.

He WILL burn the wicked and He is NOT a sadist. I pity anyone that would call YHVH a sadist and think they are more RIGHTEOUS then He is. I suggest you learn that fear and repent of your denominational self-righteousness.

I am all for the eternal fires for the wicked. I have faced great evil. I have seen His destruction of the wicked when I was in conflict with witchcraft led by a high priestess of Ashtoreth. That is the reason I have studied the ancient paganism. I have seen it person. Eze 16 is a near perfect parallel of that high priestess life. It is a passage about Jerusalem as a woman falling into Ashtoreth worship and the consequences. It gives many of the attributes of a 'Jezebel' and the consequences for that lifestyle. Everything that Yah says will happen to that woman happened to the high priestess I knew, point by point. The ONLY difference between her life and that passage is she was an only child verses having sisters. Her coven members were her sisters. She even repented in prison.