I am seriously questioning my atheism

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Haven

I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Disclaimer: This post may be out of place on the Christianity and Apologetics forum (even though it does have some relation to Christianity), if it is, I apologize and ask that it be moved to a more appropriate place on the forum. However, I do intend this thread to be a discussion, if not a debate, so I felt this was the best place for it.

As many of you know, I am an ex-evangelical Christian and a current atheist. By "atheist," I mean I lack belief in god(s) of any kind, although I do not assert that there are definitely no gods. Since departing from Christianity, everything has made so much more sense: an eternal Universe (defined as the totality of natural existence) explained existence, evolution explained the diversity of life on earth, the absence of god(s) explained the problems of evil, inconsistent revelation, and so on.

However, there is one thing that I have been unable to account for under atheism: morality. Atheists almost invariably state that moral values and duties are not objective facts, but are simply subjective statements of preference and have no ontological value. That is, of course, until we are presented with cases of true evil, such as the Holocaust, the atrocities of Pol Pot, or the horrible psychopathic serial killings of individuals like Jeffery Dahmer. Then we as atheists tacitly appeal to objective moral values and duties, saying that individuals who commit should be severely punished (even executed) for doing "evil," saying that they "knew right from wrong." But if right and wrong are simply statements of subjective opinion, then how can we say that others knew "right from wrong" and are accountable for their actions? If relativism is true, they simply had differing opinions from the majority of human beings. However, it seems obvious to me (and to the vast majority of others, theist and atheist alike) that this is absurd -- the monsters who carried out the aforementioned acts really, objectively did evil.

Given this, the only reasonable conclusion is that moral facts and imperatives exist.

However, atheism appears to offer no framework for moral facts. Because of this, a few weeks ago, I started up a discussion on Wielenbergian moral realism, which states that objective moral values are simply "brute facts" that exist without any explanation. However, others rightly pointed out that the existence of "brute facts" is ontologically problematic and that the best explanation (on atheism) is that morality is simply subjective. Additionally, even if atheistic moral facts existed, the Humeian problem of deriving an "ought" from an "is" would preclude them from acting as moral imperatives; commands which human beings are obligated to follow.

In light of these airtight logical objections to atheistic moral realism, I was forced to abandon my position on moral facts and tentatively adopt moral relativism. However, relativism still seems problematic. After all, if morality is subjective, no one person can accuse another of failing to recognize the difference between "right and wrong," however, it is obvious to me (and, I would suspect, to other atheists as well) that right or wrong really objectively (not subjectively) exist.

The only rational conclusion I can seem to come up with is that there is a (are) transcendent moral lawgiver(s) who both grounds moral facts and issues binding moral commands on all humanity; i.e., God(s). This echoes evangelical Christian philosopher William Lane Craig's moral argument, which syllogism reads:
WLC wrote:Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists
Premises 1 and 2 seem bulletproof -- (1) was demonstrated earlier in this post, leaving (2) as the only premise to attack. However, (2) seems to be as obvious as a hand in front of my face. The conclusion necessarily follows from (1) and (2), so is there any rational reason for me to reject the conclusion of the argument?

Remember, I am no believer of any kind. I am a staunch, educated, informed atheist, and I am well aware of the philosophical arguments against God(s), such as the problem of evil, the dysteleological argument, the problem of omniscience, etc. I'm also well aware of the plentiful empirical evidence against the existence of God(s), for instance, evolution, mind-body physicalism, etc. These are the reasons I reconverted from Christianity in the first place. However, I don't see way around this problem other than to accept either that our apparently obvious sense of moral facts is somehow mistaken, or that (a) theistic being(s) exist.

Debate question: Are my issues with atheism legitimate? Can atheism provide a coherent moral framework other than nihilism, relativism, or subjectivism? Do these problems really present evidence for theism? Is William Lane Craig right? Is this a real problem for atheism, or are my (our) emotions simply overriding my (our) rationality?

Feel free to present evidence for or against atheism, Christianity, or any religious or nonreligious perspective in this thread.

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Post #151

Post by Artie »

Knight wrote:
Mithrae wrote:Why ought we seek out some kind of theistic moral system?
"Ought to" doesn't imply "ability to." As to why we ought to eliminate our corrupt natures or seek out a theistic moral system, I've already answered that. We're responsible to God because God created us to be responsible. It's a part of our identity. Responsibility presupposes a sovereign to whom one is responsible, not a free will.
You don't need a deity to whom you are responsible. If you use logic, reason and common sense to guide your morals you would understand that you're responsible to yourself, your family, your friends up to the whole human race.
Mithrae wrote:There's differences between the two views, certainly, though in general terms I believe that central element of empathy as expressed in the Golden Rule is common to all moral systems.
How would you want to be treated if you were a criminal?
Treat others like you want others to treat you. A criminal doesn't do that and just has to deal with the consequences of his actions. He is immoral.
Mithrae wrote:Doing what it's in our nature to do - to have and express empathy for others - would seem to be the simpler, more obvious and potentially more beneficial choice regardless of 'oughts.'
Is that in our nature? I would contest that. Why do we have so many criminals in our society if you're right?
There are 78.4% Christians in the US and the US also has the highest crime rate in the world. Speaks volumes. Even some monkeys have more empathy than some humans supposedly created by a god. http://peacefulparadox.hubpages.com/hub ... assion-too

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Post #152

Post by arian »

Mithrae wrote:Imagine an experiment where you have some monkeys in a cage. There are two chains. Chain A will provide a large quantity of food for the monkeys. Chain B will provide a small quantity of food. Next the experimenters set it up so that pulling chain A will also give an electric shock to another monkey in another cage. The monkeys can see each other. And in particular the monkeys sees the pain of the shocked monkey. It is easy formulate the conclusion, even for a monkey, that pulling on the chain that gives the large food reward will result in pain for another monkey.

Now the question is whether the monkeys will continue to pull on the chain A to get the large food reward or will the monkeys be sensitive to the other monkey's pain. What is your guess?
I believe the monkey will continue to pull chain A and get the big-reward, as I see humans who have little value for absolute-morals do even if it causes pain and suffering for their fellow man.

Now if you switched monkeys with dogs, ... ?? :-k

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Post #153

Post by Artie »

arian wrote:
Mithrae wrote:Imagine an experiment where you have some monkeys in a cage. There are two chains. Chain A will provide a large quantity of food for the monkeys. Chain B will provide a small quantity of food. Next the experimenters set it up so that pulling chain A will also give an electric shock to another monkey in another cage. The monkeys can see each other. And in particular the monkeys sees the pain of the shocked monkey. It is easy formulate the conclusion, even for a monkey, that pulling on the chain that gives the large food reward will result in pain for another monkey.

Now the question is whether the monkeys will continue to pull on the chain A to get the large food reward or will the monkeys be sensitive to the other monkey's pain. What is your guess?
I believe the monkey will continue to pull chain A and get the big-reward, as I see humans who have little value for absolute-morals do even if it causes pain and suffering for their fellow man.

Now if you switched monkeys with dogs, ... ?? :-k
You didn't actually read the link did you? Go back and do that.

spayne

Post #154

Post by spayne »

Haven wrote:I guess I am no longer questioning my atheism . . . the answers presented in this thread and in other conversations have restored my "non-faith." There could be several secular explanations for objective morality (as mentioned earlier), or morality may be entirely subjective. Either way, I will continue to live a moral life and I won't concern myself with this question anymore, as it appears that we simply do not have an answer. Theism, however, is not an answer.
Theism in general may not have an answer but Christianity and the Bible definitely do. Rather than leave this as a philosophical discussion that will go likely nowhere (as evidenced by the fifteen pages of commentary and your conclusion that "we simply don't have an answer") - Jesus Christ brings this issue into the realm of personal accountability, reminding every person that it is their own evil thoughts and actions that need to be accounted for.

“Are you still so dull?� Jesus asked them. “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person..." (Matthew 15:16-20)

The crux of the matter is that every person must confront the immorality that resides within them. People don't like to acknowledge that because everyone seems to believe that they are "deep down a good person". But the reality is that, in addition to having good qualities and characteristics, every person is filled with immoral thoughts that often find some kind of fulfillment in their lives. And this in turn helps form the landscape of evil that we observe in life. It all starts with individual people enacting the murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony and slander that is in their hearts.

If that is the problem, in Christianity we also have the solution:

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Jesus Christ is the gate that leads to life.(John 10:9) Through his message of repenting from one's own immoral acts, and encouraging people to follow him, he leads us to life, which is an existence that is distinguished and characterized by love. And love is always the antidote to evil.

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Post #155

Post by Goat »

Haven wrote:I guess I am no longer questioning my atheism . . . the answers presented in this thread and in other conversations have restored my "non-faith." There could be several secular explanations for objective morality (as mentioned earlier), or morality may be entirely subjective. Either way, I will continue to live a moral life and I won't concern myself with this question anymore, as it appears that we simply do not have an answer. Theism, however, is not an answer.
Continuing to live a moral life is just about the best you can do.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #156

Post by Artie »

spayne wrote:Jesus Christ is the gate that leads to life.(John 10:9) Through his message of repenting from one's own immoral acts, and encouraging people to follow him, he leads us to life, which is an existence that is distinguished and characterized by love. And love is always the antidote to evil.
In other words, the monkeys in this link http://peacefulparadox.hubpages.com/hub ... assion-too show compassion and empathy because they have read the Bible and believe in God?

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Post #157

Post by TheJackelantern »

Image

This is basically spayne's argument.. Also, his argument is to suggest that love, compassion, and morality is owned by his religion ect.. This to which is nonsense. Lastly it's the ultimate play on trying to make you feel guilty and to try to make you feel like you owe your love ect to some imaginary being, and thus should bow before it worship it, and submit your entire lives to it... And that to is utter nonsense.. Anyone that understands how brainwashing works will know this..

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Post #158

Post by I Wear White Socks »

Haven wrote:I guess I am no longer questioning my atheism . . . the answers presented in this thread and in other conversations have restored my "non-faith." There could be several secular explanations for objective morality (as mentioned earlier), or morality may be entirely subjective. Either way, I will continue to live a moral life and I won't concern myself with this question anymore, as it appears that we simply do not have an answer. Theism, however, is not an answer.
Haven,

I have been reading about mirror neurons, agency detection and recursion in language, and how theory of mind, language and religion arose simultaneously (probably the Pleistocene era). Studying these topics has gotten me the farthest in understanding how/why humans feel a need to believe in a disembodied mind with moral concerns. It also is the best explanation I can find regarding why at one time I personally believed so strongly in a third party called god.

May I make some reading suggestions and a few more comments at the end?

Are You There God? It's Me, Brain. How our innate theory of mind gives rise to the divine creator. By Jesse Bering (Slate Magazine)
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... brain.html

The Belief Instinct: The Psychology of Souls, Destiny, and the Meaning of Life By Jesse Bering


The Recursive Mind: The origins of Human Language, Thought, and Civilization


The Personal God: How Morality, Intentionality and Religion Evolved by Dr. Michael D. Magee (Note the pertinent sections titled "A Theory of Mind and Intentionality", "Is God a Person?" and "Which Person is He?"
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/truth/c30epley.php

Religion: a Spandrel of the Social Mind and Human Sociality by M. D. Magee
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/truth/c70pascalboyer.php

Genealogy of Religion Exploring the Origins, History and Future of Religion Does Autism Preclude Beliefs in God(s)?
http://genealogyreligion.net/does-autis ... fs-in-gods

Mental time travel and the shaping of the human mind Thomas Suddendorf1,*, Donna Rose Addis2 and Michael C. Corballis2 Mental time travel and grammatical language probably evolved during the Pleistocene (Suddendorf & Corballis 1997, 2007; Corballis 2003).
http://www.memorylab.org/Files/Suddendo ... s_2009.pdf

In conclusion, I think Jesse Bering’s argument supports Nietzsche’s notion that our belief in God stems from our reliance on the grammatical convention that every sentence has a subject; we cannot look at the world without thinking, “Who did this?� Nietzsche said, “I fear that we will not lose God because we still believe in grammar."

Jacques Derrida doesn't reduce the concept of god to language like Nietzsche, but does underline the close interconnection of divinity and semantic sign when he maintains they have the same birthplace and birthday. Derrida maintains that the era of the sign is essentially theological. Language and divinity originate simultaneously.

Studying the philosophy of atheist Max Stirner also helps to inoculate against being a slave to ideological abstractions, including morality as a sacred fixed idea. He exposes ideological “mirroring� and “signs�. You don’t have to be defined by the images and symbols which culture tries to impose upon the unique individual in the name of an imagined absolute. Below is a quote from the book, "Power and Politics in Poststructuralist Thought" by Saul Newman:

The chief advantage of Stirner’s notion of subjectivity is that the
subject, while constituted by ideology, is never fully determined by it, as it
is in structuralist accounts. For Stirner, there is always the possibility of
the subject resisting his subjectification. The identity of the ideological
subject is never complete. There is always a ‘lack’ in symbolization that
undermines the fullness of this identity. In other words, ideological interpellation
never fully accounts for the individual: ‘No concept expresses me,
nothing that is designated my essence exhausts me’ (Stirner 1995: 324).
There is always a left-over, a spectral remainder that escapes ideological
symbolization and provides a point of resistance against it. There is a kind
of flaw in ideological mirroring, a point at which the ideological subject
does not entirely reflect ideological symbols and images but, rather,
exceeds them. It may be seen, in other words, as a distortion of ideology
itself, a distortion of distortion. This excess lies in what Stirner terms ‘the
un-man’, the other of man: ‘But the un-man (Unmensch) who is somewhere
in every individual, how is he blocked? . . . by the side of man stands
always the un-man . . . State, society, humanity do not master this devil’
(1995: 125). The un-man is a force that cannot be contained, both a creation
of man and a threat to it. It is an excess produced by ideological interpellation, which refuses to conform to human essence, to the ideal of man. The ‘un-man’ is ‘a man who does not correspond to the concept man, as the inhuman is something human which is not conformed to the concept of the human’ (Stirner 1995: 159). Perhaps it may be considered in the Lacanian psychoanalytic sense as the ‘real’: an excess of meaning produced by its inability to be inscribed within meaning, by its inability to be signified. For Lacan, the subject is faced with a series of signifiers that are supposed to represent him. However, there is always an excess of
meaning that escapes this signification (Lacan 1977: 306).


Lastly, some atheists appeal to Kant’s Categorical Imperative for a source of morality. Somewhere on-line, I found and stored a document showing why Kant’s Imperative is just as oppressive and self-alienating as Christian moralism, but can’t find it right now. Will look for it if you wish.
Last edited by I Wear White Socks on Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:55 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #159

Post by Janx »

Haven wrote:Hi Janx! :)
Janx wrote: Hi Haven,

I'd like to offer that I've never seen a sound argument for moral objectivity as a result of a God. A deity provides us with an ultimate opinion on arbitrary moral values. A theist cannot answer why we aught to do as God says. Theism is just passing the buck.
See my earlier comments on God as a maximally fundamental, necessary being. If such a being existed, it could serve as a truly objective basis for morality:
Haven wrote:I see your point . . . from an epistemic standpoint, your "goodium" hypothetical really doesn't differ from positing an unprovable supernatural being as the basis of all morality. We wouldn't be able to know of either.

Ontologically, however, there are some key advantages to a god serving as the basis of all morality. For instance, God is said to be the most fundamental element of all reality, as well as a necessary being (existing in all possible worlds). The nature (and any commands that flow from that nature) of a fundamental, necessary being can serve as an objective basis for morality.

The Euthyphro dilemma fails at this because it doesn't assume that God is a fundamental, necessary being, only that he/she/it is a powerful being that interacts with the universe.
Haven wrote:A fundamental necessary being is the objective basis of everything that exists, including morality. (Assuming theism) everything that exists is contingent upon and supervenes on God. Such a being is categorically different than a powerful being that interacts with the universe.
However, there is absolutely no evidence that such a being exists, so yes, I agree that theism and religion is simply passing the buck on arbitrary morality.
Hi Haven,

I've been mulling over your response for a while and sadly can't make sense of it. Maybe you can help me out.
  • Morality is a tool social creatures use to assist in the challenge of co-existential. We aught to be moral because we want to remain in a society. This desire to fulfill our needs is the objective fact upon which morality is founded. If fundamental necessity is responsible for anything, it would be shaping our desires, our environment and our capacity to achieve what we want.

    A moral structure is the result of shared desires. It's a social contract to protect social cohesion. Those who are immoral break this contract and must either be controlled or expelled from society.

    Justice is a tool to assist in preventing us from slipping down the slippery slope of morality - it's controlled immorality for the sake of greater good.
I don't see how we can add objectivity to this system without losing our freedom to be individuals - to pursue what we want and have the capacity to shape our desires.

spayne

Post #160

Post by spayne »

TheJackelantern wrote:Image

This is basically spayne's argument.. Also, his argument is to suggest that love, compassion, and morality is owned by his religion ect.. This to which is nonsense. Lastly it's the ultimate play on trying to make you feel guilty and to try to make you feel like you owe your love ect to some imaginary being, and thus should bow before it worship it, and submit your entire lives to it... And that to is utter nonsense.. Anyone that understands how brainwashing works will know this..
Hey Jackelentern,
I just thought I would point out that your response seems to prove what I am saying here. Your modus operandi on this board has been continually to judge Christians for their beliefs in ways that are often harsh, disrespectful, rude, stereotypical, and mean. But yet, all the while, you preach a philosophy of tolerance and peace. Where is the morality in that if you are such a good atheist?

I never stated that atheists don't know what morality is or that Christianity somehow has ownership of some kind of moral order. I simply said that Christianity, as opposed to making this a philosophical issue, makes it personal. Blessings to you today.

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