Judaism is based on racism

[biomystic]

I cannot help but reject the faith of my mother's Jewish ancestors because nothing I've read in Jewish scriptures and in Jewish actions following those scriptures in modern Israel leads me to believe otherwise.

The racism is blanket racism, like white supremacy is blanket racism against all non-white people Judaism is blanket racism against all non-Jews.
There has been a concerted attempt in our times to cover over this racism by pointing to Falasha Jews for example and token Gentile converts but the actions of Israeli Jews towards Arab Palestinians shows the inherent racist ideology of Judaism. This is the major reason I refuse to identify with the Jewish religion as I will only work for the God of all people, not a special god for Jews only.

What do other Jews think of Israel's ethnic cleansing program to rid as many Palestinians from Palestine as possible and to make the lives of those who remain as miserable as possible?

[cnorman18]

Thanks, Otseng. And, Biomystic -- here's a more detailed reply to your last; I was rushed earlier, just getting off work.

Do you read Hebrew? I don't.

A little -- enough to know if a translation is near the mark or totally off-the-wall.

I'm pretty sure Acharya does...

You're PRETTY sure? You don't KNOW?

Look here. This is her attempt to answer the question, "What are Acharya's credentials?" She BEGINS, in the first paragraph, with remarks that include this:

...it is not always necessary to have perfect and proper credentials to become an expert or authority in a subject...

...and goes on at some length about how amateurs can become experts without formal training. Then she gives a long, convoluted explanation of how she became an "expert" in Greek, among other things.

The word "Hebrew" is not mentioned. In a self-serving autobiographical essay, she does not even mention Hebrew, much less Aramaic, as something she has ever studied or paid attention to. I think that settles the question. "Acharya S" does not read Hebrew, and therefore depended entirely on secondary sources for her "knowledge" of the Talmud.

We have already established the nature of of those sources.

though as her credentials for her works are always being challenged by religious apologists like you.

It would appear that that is because she has virtually NO credentials, and none at all in Judaic studies, even by her own account.

In the reviews and remarks to which I posted links, you will see that skeptics and atheists also challenge her credentials and her work. Acharya is a proponent of an astonishingly huge conspiracy theory that is more about Christianity than Judaism, and you don't have to be a "religious apologist" or even a theist to be skeptical about it, as I have already shown. She has more in common with Helela Blavatsky and the Theosophists of the 19th century than with anyone -- ANYONE -- in the academic world of peer-reviewed scholarship and actual, coherent, well-founded and well-documented research and argument.

To do her extensive research she's had to learn Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, and that Egyptian written language whose name I can't remember, not Coptic which came later.

She doesn't even make those claims herself. What is your source for those claims? Do you have one? Since you can't even remember the name of all the languages you claim that she knows, I think the answer to that is obvious enough.

Acharya S is D.M. Murdock's pen name, the one she goes by and you others can read about her in Wikipedia to see that she is actually fairly well known and getting more known because of the popularity of the Zeigeist films.

I would concede that she is well-known and well-regarded among conspiracy nuts and other pseudo-academic cultists. Among actual scholars, she is not regarded at all; she is dismissed.

You know, that list of anti-Gentile statements in the Talmud is the short list. There are more and you really need to stop and think how and why right-wing bigots learn to fake so many Hebrew Talmudic verses whose structure is as obliquely bizarre as those in the Quran, no easy feat for anyone except dedicated Hebrew scholars and right-wingers have never been known as such.

As I indicated above, that is arrant nonsense.
(1) These fake quotes are not based on original research; they have been around, in identical forms and with identical nonexistent notation and references, for more than a century.
(2) They ARE an "easy feat"; they are clumsy, crude, ludicrously far from credible, and obviously false -- unless one is an extremely bigoted Jew-hater who is prepared to believe that Judaism is at bottom a religion of stunning depravity and evil.
(3) Slanders and lies about the Jewish people have been around for more than a thousand years, notably the Blood Libel which has been thrown at Jews from the 11th century until the present day, and which one of her "sources" was prepared to defend in a courtroom under oath.

That might be a good question for YOU: Do you believe that Jews murder Christian or Muslim children as a sacred religious rite, in order to use their blood in our Passover matzahs? If not, why not?

Perhaps it is you who are the victim of religious propaganda since you are taking your beliefs from Jewish pro-Zionist sources that have a vested interest in keeping you in the dark about Jewish racism being practiced by Jews in Israel where the core Jewish beliefs are allowed to manifest.

Since I have read over 300 books on Judaism, written by Jews, Christians, atheists and agnostics, and their writings have appeared in peer-reviewed academic journals and books published by both mainstream commercial and university presses -- as opposed to vanity publishers who publish ANYTHING, including weird UFO cultism and bizarre historical conspiracy theories on anything at all -- and since I am one course short of a Master of Theology degree from a well-respected liberal seminary, i.e. Perkins School of Theology at Southern Methodist University, and since I have studied with a dozen or so rabbis in different branches of Judaism, from Orthodox to Reconstructionist -- well, I doubt that very much.

Unless you believe that ALL rabbis and ALL academics and ALL universities and ALL publishers are in on the evil Jewish conspiracy, your claims here are about as credible as "The world was once ruled by an advanced Pygmy civilization that was influenced by space aliens."

Of course, Acharya teaches that too.

----

Back to basics; The moderators have told you to provide links to proper primary sources or to retract your claims. What's it going to be?

[biomystic]

More apologetics for bad religion. Do you know Hebrew, moderator? If not, neither do we as none of us are not Hebrew scholars. Without knowing Hebrew all of us can only reflect whatever translator of whatever Talmud edition used and I know that Talmud's have been edited. So I don't use Talmud as my primary source of racism in Judaism's theology. What I use is real live people's experiences and that's enough to base my opinions on besides Jewish scriptures. But for that matter, even the Torah/Tanakh contains racist remarks by the god of Israel who loves Jacob more than Esau and orders the genocide of non-Jews.

But I do know what pressure there is to keep people from looking morally at Judaism, or any of the Abrahamic religions on talkboards like this where free expression of one's beliefs are subject to anothers approval..

[bluethread]

But for that matter, even the Torah/Tanakh contains racist remarks by the god of Israel who loves Jacob more than Esau and orders the genocide of non-Jews.

I'm not sure how the Tanakh saying that Adonai loved Jacob more than Esau could be racist. It could be that some use that phrase to justify racism, but that is in the nature of the term race. It is my understanding that the term race was invented so that evoution could be used as a justification for persecuting certain individuals. The term itself biases one toward seeing things as justification for persecution. Regarding your second point, the Scriptures do not call for the genecide of all nonjews. There are a few cases of particular populations at speciific times, in a time of war. Again, some may use these incidents as a justification for racism. However, that is not the fault of the Scriptures, but the nature of racism in general.

[cnorman18]

More apologetics for bad religion. Do you know Hebrew, moderator? If not, neither do we as none of us are not Hebrew scholars. Without knowing Hebrew all of us can only reflect whatever translator of whatever Talmud edition used and I know that Talmud's have been edited.

HOW do you know this? What is your source? Do you even know how many different translations and editions of the Talmud actually exist in English?

And, once again; the bulk of the Talmud is written in Aramaic, not in Hebrew.

Once again, your claims depend on an enormous, centuries-long Jewish conspiracy to conceal the (alleged) horrifying depravity and evil nature of the Jewish religion. I'm afraid we need a bit more than your obviously prejudiced OPINION on that issue -- and a LOT more than a collection of Jew-baiting hate sites.

So I don't use Talmud as my primary source of racism in Judaism's theology.

Fine. WITHDRAW YOUR CLAIMS ABOUT THE TALMUD, then, and admit that you HAVE no credible sources whatever for that information.

What I use is real live people's experiences and that's enough to base my opinions on besides Jewish scriptures.

Old saying around here: The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence."

But for that matter, even the Torah/Tanakh contains racist remarks by the god of Israel who loves Jacob more than Esau and orders the genocide of non-Jews.

If you want to debate Scripture, I'm ready; as I recall, Esau and Jacob were BROTHERS, which sort of rules out "racism." But start another thread.

And you might do well to search around on the forum before you go there. Most of the nonsense that you're talking about has been discussed and debunked elsewhere. For starters, some of the "massacres" reported in the Torah never happened, and that can be proven from the text itself. Further, you can't find the teachings of the Jewish religion in the Hebrew Bible; but it seems you don't even know that rather basic fact about Judaism.

But I do know what pressure there is to keep people from looking morally at Judaism, or any of the Abrahamic religions on talkboards like this where free expression of one's beliefs are subject to anothers approval..

So, once again, the bottom line of your "argument" boils down to "Jews lie" and a massive Jewish/Christian conspiracy, and now THIS FORUM is alleged to be in on the plot.

I think we're done here. You have nothing but screwball conspiracy theories, nut sites and hate sites to back up your claims, and you also claim that you're the victim of an ancient worldwide plot cooked up by Christians and Jews in collaboration. Considering the history of persecution of Jews by Christians for two thousand years or so, that peculiar notion has some problems of its own; but then actual historical credibility and scholarship doesn't seem to be on your radar screen any more than "Acharya's."

Thanks for playing. Have a nice day.

[biomystic]

Cnorman, You've said nothing real. Your comments could have come from ADL as they use the standard Jewish defamation of critics that reflect their efforts to stifle honest inquiry into the Jewish religion and practices stemming from Judaism. I base my opinions of Judaism not on their religious texts but on the way those texts are carried out in reality, i.e., I've had real experience with Jewish racism, seen it for myself as it is practiced on my Palestinians friends. I also have, since I wasn't raised Jewish myself, real experience of my Jewish girlfriend's grandparents who would have disinherited any of their children had they married goyim and this wasn't unusual in Jewish families from the start until about the '50's when Jews became acceptable in Gentile society. From then on, there's been a great laxity in Jewish racial selection in marriages but it's still mandated in Jewish scriptures. Btw, I would have no problem with Judaism except for the Jewish religious enterprise of Israel that is costing America billions of dollars and wiping out America's reputation as an ethical democracy as it continues to support the racist state of Israel which is practicing Apartheid, blatant racism, as even a former U.S. President told you. That's all you really need to know to take a moral stance against any theology or ideology that pits ethnic groups against each other.

[otseng]

More apologetics for bad religion. Do you know Hebrew, moderator? If not, neither do we as none of us are not Hebrew scholars.

I don't know Greek either, but that doesn't mean that I can just attribute things to the Bible without providing a reference.

It is a simple matter to provide a link to your source. If you cannot do so, you will need to retract your statements. If that is not done, then posts can get deleted.

[cnorman18]

Cnorman, You've said nothing real.

?

Care to define "real" in this context? I've posted facts and links since we started here; you've ignored all of them entirely, and spouted provable and proven falsehoods in supposed "response."

Your comments could have come from ADL as they use the standard Jewish defamation of critics that reflect their efforts to stifle honest inquiry into the Jewish religion and practices stemming from Judaism.

So the ADL is base and dishonest and part of the conspiracy, too, huh? What you've posted isn't within a light-year of "honesty inquiry." It's been Jew-baiting, falsification of the Jewish heritage, and unsupported, contemptible falsehood from the get-go.

I haven't used any "standard" anything. I've posted FACTS, including statements from YOUR OWN "EXPERT," which demonstrate beyond doubt that your claims about her and about the scandalous, scurrilous lies that you posted are FALSE. Pretending that my posts were part of some nonsensical program of "defamation" is just another lie and another phony argument, and I think that's abundantly clear to EVERYONE who has read these posts.

Tell me; Do you think there even IS such a thing as antisemitism?

I base my opinions of Judaism not on their religious texts but on the way those texts are carried out in reality, i.e., I've had real experience with Jewish racism, seen it for myself as it is practiced on my Palestinians friends. I also have, since I wasn't raised Jewish myself, real experience of my Jewish girlfriend's grandparents who would have disinherited any of their children had they married goyim and this wasn't unusual in Jewish families from the start until about the '50's when Jews became acceptable in Gentile society. From then on, there's been a great laxity in Jewish racial selection in marriages but it's still mandated in Jewish scriptures. Btw, I would have no problem with Judaism except for the Jewish religious enterprise of Israel that is costing America billions of dollars and wiping out America's reputation as an ethical democracy as it continues to support the racist state of Israel which is practicing Apartheid, blatant racism, as even a former U.S. President told you. That's all you really need to know to take a moral stance against any theology or ideology that pits ethnic groups against each other.

Well, President Carter has since apologized; but that's another issue entirely. You're entitled to your opinions on all those matters, and I have no interest in arguing with an ideologue where they are concerned; on this thread, they amount to nothing more than an attempt at distraction and a change of subject. In any case, opinions are not facts, and your opinions, no matter HOW strongly you hold them, do not justify what you have attempted to do here.

You have posted blatantly antisemitic falsehoods that you purport to be facts about the documents and teachings of the Jewish faith. THEY WERE AND ARE OFFENSIVE, INFLAMMATORY, AND TOTALLY AND PROVABLY UNTRUE. That's the only issue on the table here, and YOU brought it up.

I haven't seen a retraction of these blatant lies. Where is it?

[biomystic]

You haven't given it yet. Please feel free to confess your sin of bearing false witness against me, against all Palestinians, against truth, against God.

You should be mature enough to know by now that it isn't words in books that make the difference but the ACTIONS of real people following those words and that's what I base my opinion about Judaism upon. The ACTS of Jewish people following their Scriptures and all the world except for the tiny percentage of Zionists agree Zionists are doing evil acts in Palestine taking away the land and life from Palestinians to give it to imported Jews for Jews. You don't get a Jewish settlement with real democracy, that Apartheid policy can only happen in a racist regime.

But enough of this nonsense with you. You have let scriptures and political propaganda create your view of reality while I base my opinions on seeing for myself on the ground in the place where the issue of Jewish racism I raise here stands out for all the world to see except those with moral blinders on.

[cnorman18]

You haven't given it yet. Please feel free to confess your sin of bearing false witness against me, against all Palestinians, against truth, against God.

The only one here who has borne false witness is you. I have proven that fact beyond all doubt.

You should be mature enough to know by now that it isn't words in books that make the difference but the ACTIONS of real people following those words and that's what I base my opinion about Judaism upon. The ACTS of Jewish people following their Scriptures and all the world except for the tiny percentage of Zionists agree Zionists are doing evil acts in Palestine taking away the land and life from Palestinians to give it to imported Jews for Jews. You don't get a Jewish settlement with real democracy, that Apartheid policy can only happen in a racist regime.

Besides the personal insults here, you are still trying to sell the false idea that the policies of the nation of Israel are based on the tenets of the Jewish religion.

They arent.

(1) Israel was not founded by religious Jews, but by secular socialists.

(2) Israel is a secular democratic state, not a theocracy; the policies of Israel are not determined by Jewish teachings nor by Jewish religious authorities.

(3) Many Jews in the Diaspora, and in Israel itself, are OPPOSED to those policies (see below).

(4) The majority of Israeli citizens are secular Jews (and 20% of them are Arabs).

(5) The religious authorities that DO exist in Israel, even with their limited power and authority, are entirely Orthodox.

(6) Modern liberal Judaism, for and from which perspective I speak, barely exists in Israel. There are more "Messianic" synagogues in Israel than either Conservative or Reform.

(7) If you want to read columns and articles critical of Israel and Israeli policy, you need look no further than any -- repeat, ANY -- Jewish magazine or newspaper. Start with Haaretz and The Jerusalem Post, then go to Forward, Tikkun, Moment, or any other Jewish periodical you can find.

Need more evidence? Okay.

Here is a partial list of Israeli and/or Jewish organizations dedicated to peace, an end to the occupation, justice for Palestinians, and related goals:

Ameinu: http://www.ameinu.net/
America-Mideast Educational and Training Services, Inc.: http://www.amideast.org/
American Task Force on Palestine: http://www.americantaskforce.org/
Americans for Peace Now: http://www.peacenow.org/
Churches for Middle East Peace: http://www.cmep.org/
Courage to Refuse: http://seruv.org.il/Hebrew/default.asp
The Israeli Council for Israeli-Palestinian Peace: http://members.tripod.com/~other_Israel/ICIPP.html
Israeli Occupation Archive: http://www.israeli-occupation.org/
Jewish Friends of Palestine: http://www.jewishfriendspalestine.org/
Jewish Voice for Peace: http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
J Street: http://www.jstreet.org/
Middle East Endgame: http://www.crisisgroup.org/
Palestinian American Research Center: http://parc-us-pal.org/
Peace Now (Shalom Achshav): http://www.peacenow.org.il/site/he/homepage.asp

Here are some more:

Rabbis for Human Rights: http://www.rhr.israel.net
Gush Shalom: http://www.gush-shalom.org/english
Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions: http://www.icahd.org
Yesh Gvul: http://www.yesh-gvul.org/english.html
New Profile: http://www.newprofile.org/english
Ta'ayush: http://www.taayush.org
Bat Shalom: http://www.batshalom.org
The Alternative Information Center: http://www.alternativenews.org

And more:

BTselem: http://www.btselem.org/
Refuser Solidarity Network (RSN): http://www.refusersolidarity.net
Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI: http://www.stoptorture.org.il/
Oznik.com: http://oznik.com
Hithabrut - Tarabut: http://www.tarabut.info/he/home/
Union of Progressive Women: http://www.tajamoa.org/?mod=arch&ID=38
BOYCOTT (Israeli): http://www.boycottisrael.info/

See, a LOT of Jews are OPPOSED to the very injustices that you are so incensed about -- and they are opposed to them because of the teachings of the Jewish religion.

And, just for the record, here is a list of Arab, Palestinian and Muslim peace organizations dedicated to ending terrorism and the mass murder of civilian noncombatants:

But enough of this nonsense with you. You have let scriptures and political propaganda create your view of reality while I base my opinions on seeing for myself on the ground in the place where the issue of Jewish racism I raise here stands out for all the world to see except those with moral blinders on.

Okay, lets talk about moral blinders now.

Do you really think its morally OK to post long-since-proven lies and fabrications, culled from blatantly antisemitic hate sites and vicious Jew-haters, and then refuse to retract those inflammatory falsehoods and just walk away, saying they don't matter?

It would be PRECISELY analogous if I were to post a bunch of made-up tripe about how Islam teaches the following: that non-Muslims are subhumans, that it is perfectly OK for Muslim men to rape children, that Muslim feasts and holidays are about world conquest and domination, that it is perfectly moral and even praiseworthy for Muslims to lie to, steal from, and even murder non-Muslims -- and then, when called on it and the lies proven false, if I were to claim that all those hateful, inflammatory and insulting lies were perfectly acceptable by pointing to Hamas and Islamic Jihad suicide bombings and mass murders, and pretend that my blatant anti-Islamic lies were therefore justified. Now THAT would take some moral blindness, not to mention some pretty frenzied self-righteous rationalization.

That is, as I say, PRECISELY analogous to what you have done here.

The issue here, and the ONLY issue here, remains the FACT that you have posted blatant and contemptible antisemitic hate propaganda about the Jewish religion from some horrific sources -- AND NOW REFUSE TO RETRACT THOSE VILE FALSEHOODS.

We have some differences of opinion on Israel, though I too oppose the settlements and other Israeli policies concerning the Palestinians and other issues; but that disagreement doesnt make either of us dishonest, and nobody gets to claim that even that matter is settled. That is, as I said quite some time ago, quite another matter for debate.

But all that has nothing whatever to do with the teachings of Judaism; and the only one here who has posted verifiable, proven untruths and vicious slanders about the Jewish religion is YOU.

I don't expect a substantive reply to this post, just for the record. I expect that the facts which it contains will be entirely ignored, just as you have ignored all the other facts I have already posted on this thread; and I expect to see your attacks grow more and more personal as you try ever harder to distract everyone's attention from the slimy, contemptible lies that you have posted and now tacitly stand by.

[otseng]

You haven't given it yet. Please feel free to confess your sin of bearing false witness against me, against all Palestinians, against truth, against God.

You should be mature enough to know by now that it isn't words in books that make the difference but the ACTIONS of real people following those words and that's what I base my opinion about Judaism upon. The ACTS of Jewish people following their Scriptures and all the world except for the tiny percentage of Zionists agree Zionists are doing evil acts in Palestine taking away the land and life from Palestinians to give it to imported Jews for Jews. You don't get a Jewish settlement with real democracy, that Apartheid policy can only happen in a racist regime.

But enough of this nonsense with you. You have let scriptures and political propaganda create your view of reality while I base my opinions on seeing for myself on the ground in the place where the issue of Jewish racism I raise here stands out for all the world to see except those with moral blinders on.

Moderator Final Warning

This is not providing evidence, but simply an ad hominem argument.

Please review the Rules.


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