Make a purely secular argument for 1 woman & 1 man.

[jmvizanko]

The only arguments I have ever seen for forcing the definition of marriage to be only one woman and one man fall into 2 categories. One is an argument that is derived from somebody's religion, say for example, Christianity suggesting 1 woman and 1 man. The other is an argument from majority/tradition, say for example, most or many cultures throughout history defined marriage this way, so that's what it should be.

In America, we have a bill of rights that clearly states we should not have a state religion. Therefore the first argument does not suffice for a justification for making gay marriage, or polygamy, illegal in the US. The second argument seems to be used when the first argument fails, namely because of the above reason I just gave. But it also fails because we have a bill of rights that clearly states we have a right to practice religion freely. If your religion allows polygamy, the American government in no way has a right to deny your practice of it. And both fail in basic principle that they are based on ethnocentricity and are anti personal freedom, and I have no clue how anyone could put either argument forward and still spout that they love America because it stands for freedom.

The only convincing argument that wouldn't violate the first amendment or the respect of personal freedom would be one based solely on logic. I challenge anyone to present such an argument, that is not derived from their religion, their personal preferences, or the basis that their religion/culture should rule all others.

[dianaiad]

The optimal situation is for kids to have a mother and father, not two of each.

This statement is false. Why do you keep repeating this false statement?

While my own faith tells me that his statement is 'true' if all other things are the same (loving parents, no abuse, stuff like that) I don't know that studies have shown that ANY heterosexual set of parents is better than EVERY homosexual set, so his statement is most definitely--not proven.

...........but then, neither is yours.

Let's accept for the sake of argument that a children growing up with their own biological parents is best. I think the data supports that.

No, it doesn't. What is best for children is two parents of the same sex. Next best is two parents, whether adoptive or not, of the opposite sex.

Hmmn. I do think I"m missing something here...like a Monty Python sketch?

I will even entertain the possibilty, although I do not think the data unambiguously supports this, that two parents of opposite genders are better than one, even if one or both of the parents is not the biological parent.

there is no data that supports this. In fact, the data shows that the opposite is true. Why would you accept this, when it is not true?

At some point, we can then get back to the actual data of "two is best." From the data I have seen, "two opposite gender parents is best" is only true if they are both the biological parents.

It's not true at all. Children growing up with two parents of the same sex do AT LEAST AS WELL, IF NOT BETTER, than children with two parents of the opposite sex.

Care to show the studies?

..........................................with a multiple regression showing the influence of all other factors, like, oh, education, income, interest in the children, whether you are talking about adopted children or 'biological' children, and the surrounding culture of acceptance/rejection?

Not that I automatically reject the idea; there ARE all those other factors that would tend to support the 'adopted children of homosexual parents do at least as well as' children with two parents of the opposite sex, but for me, that's a reasoned hypothesis, not something I've done any research on.

[dianaiad]

So, if the research showed that children thrive better where there are two biological parents, the father's other wife, a spinster aunt (but no uncles), one or more grandparents and at least three siblings or step-siblings, should the government pass regulations favoring adoption into those family configurations?

Perhaps I had missed it, was the data presented that purports to show that two opposite gendered parents are the optimal configuration?

I don't know how you'd test for that, frankly. There are so many other factors to take into account. How would you do a study for that?

Given how HARD it is for same sex couples to adopt (at least traditionally), those same sex couples who eventually DO get to adopt would have exceptional people doing the adopting. High income, REALLY high interest in the kids. Now, I haven't done the studies, nor have I read any. I'm simply thinking--

People who go through hell to get something (as homosexual couples would have to in order to adopt) generally take better care of that thing than those who have it 'simply happen.' As well, there are FAR more heterosexual couples than homosexual couples with kids--with the accompanying greater chance to screw things up.

Besides. how on earth do you measure "do as well as...' in terms of kids, anyway?

Is it a happiness quotient, education, income...number of marriages that succeed, volunteerism, HOW DO YOU MEASURE SUCCESS when you are bringing up a child?

Now me, I have five kids; three of them were raised until they were 19,18 and 16 in a two parent, heterosexual, household. The two youngest, 10 and 12 at the moment the family turned into a single parent household, were raised by a single mother. How do you measure which kids are "OK," and which are somehow...not?

By college education?
Yeah, some of 'em have college degrees.

The two who don't drive trucks and make twice as much money as the college graduate who makes the most among those graduates.

They all seem to be relatively happy--at least, none of 'em have committed suicide because of depression, and as far as I know, none of them feel the need for therapy.

So.

How does one measure "how well?"

[Thatguy]

Wow, I don't know who mankind survived without this novel approach. I guess God or evolution got it wrong when the current system was set up. Perhaps we should remove children from mothers and fathers and give them to gays. As George Orwell said, we have educated ourselves into imbecility.

Only one side is calling for a categorical prohibition against child rearing based on the gender of the parents. Nobody is calling for banning straight couples from raising children, but people here and elsewhere are calling for laws to prevent gay couples from being parents. When asked to come up with secular reasons to support this ban, the evidence presented is, at best, sketchy and inconsistent.

Those opposed to gay parenting based upon either inconclusive research or tradition or common sense could just as easily be, and often are, opposed to adoption by interracial couples or atheists. Where do we draw the line at banning whole classes of prospective parents?

Somehow when homosexuality is involved, we are to look only to a mythical ideal in allowing adoption. Who will make good parents should be determined on a case by case basis, not by arbitrary denial by category. If you encourage the government to ban adoption or child custody court decisions based upon a category of people you don't like, the next government might come in and ban it based upon categories you don't want to see excluded.

We are not plagued by a glut of "ideal" adoptive parents. Custody decisions aren't usually a matter of one ideal household vs. sub-par ones. We shouldn't hobble the case by case evaluation of prospective parents by preventing whole classes of people from raising kids.

As for traditional treatment of gays, sure for centuries we would imprison or kill them, ostracize them and abuse them. In some countries we still do. Some traditions are not worth honoring.

[Autodidact]

By "opinion" you mean the best data available from scientific research

Not the scientific research I posted.

I'm sorry, I missed the research you posted that compared same-sex parents to heterosexual parents, and found that the latter did better. Would you mind posting it again? Thanks.

[Autodidact]

Perhaps I had missed it, was the data presented that purports to show that two opposite gendered parents are the optimal configuration?

No, because they don't. What the data shows is that children in intact, two parent households, do better than children with single or divorced parents. (not a shocker.) The gender of the parents makes no difference. If anything, the children with same-sex parents do slightly better in some areas.

I am happy to provide cites to the ample, lengthy and consistent research results.

[dianaiad]

Perhaps I had missed it, was the data presented that purports to show that two opposite gendered parents are the optimal configuration?

No, because they don't. What the data shows is that children in intact, two parent households, do better than children with single or divorced parents. (not a shocker.) The gender of the parents makes no difference. If anything, the children with same-sex parents do slightly better in some areas.

I am happy to provide cites to the ample, lengthy and consistent research results.

I did ask for them, so....I would be quite happy to see them. I'm really interested in the studies and what they tested for.

This--would be a VERY hard study to design, it seems to me.

[Autodidact]

The optimal situation is for kids to have a mother and father, not two of each.

This statement is false. Why do you keep repeating this false statement?

While my own faith tells me that his statement is 'true' if all other things are the same (loving parents, no abuse, stuff like that) I don't know that studies have shown that ANY heterosexual set of parents is better than EVERY homosexual set, so his statement is most definitely--not proven.

...........but then, neither is yours.

Nothing in science is ever proven. The question is, what does the evidence say? The evidence, all of it that we have, says that this statement is false.

I wouldn't worry about what your faith tells you. It tells you all sorts of things that have nothing to do with the facts.

Actually, I have presented, and will be happy to present again, the reams of studies that support my statement. East of Eden has presented a total of zero to support his. That's because there aren't any.

Let's accept for the sake of argument that a children growing up with their own biological parents is best. I think the data supports that.

No, it doesn't. What is best for children is two parents of the same sex. Next best is two parents, whether adoptive or not, of the opposite sex.

Hmmn. I do think I"m missing something here...like a Monty Python sketch?

I fail to see the humor.

I will even entertain the possibilty, although I do not think the data unambiguously supports this, that two parents of opposite genders are better than one, even if one or both of the parents is not the biological parent.

there is no data that supports this. In fact, the data shows that the opposite is true. Why would you accept this, when it is not true?

At some point, we can then get back to the actual data of "two is best." From the data I have seen, "two opposite gender parents is best" is only true if they are both the biological parents.

It's not true at all. Children growing up with two parents of the same sex do AT LEAST AS WELL, IF NOT BETTER, than children with two parents of the opposite sex.

Care to show the studies?

..........................................with a multiple regression showing the influence of all other factors, like, oh, education, income, interest in the children, whether you are talking about adopted children or 'biological' children, and the surrounding culture of acceptance/rejection?

Not that I automatically reject the idea; there ARE all those other factors that would tend to support the 'adopted children of homosexual parents do at least as well as' children with two parents of the opposite sex, but for me, that's a reasoned hypothesis, not something I've done any research on.[/quote]

Will do.

[Autodidact]

as requested by dianiad:

http:// onlinelibrary.wiley.com/ doi/ 10.1111/ j.1467-8624.2004.00823.x/ abstract; jsessionid=1158DEE8DA1106142F2C39B1FE1E5921.d01t04? systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+be+disrupted+17+March+from+10-14+GMT+ %2806-10+EDT %29+for+essential+maintenance& userIsAuthenticated=false& deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

Normative analyses indicated that, on measures of psychosocial adjustment and school outcomes, adolescents were functioning well, and their adjustment was not generally associated with family type. Assessments of romantic relationships and sexual behavior were not associated with family type. Regardless of family type, adolescents whose parents described closer relationships with them reported better school adjustment.

http:// pediatrics.aappublications.org/ content/ 109/ 2/ 341.full? fulltext=& searchid=QID_NOT_SET

A growing body of scientific literature demonstrates that children who grow up with 1 or 2 gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual. Children’s optimal development seems to be influenced more by the nature of the relationships and interactions within the family unit than by the particular structural form it takes.

Here is an excellent review of the research:
http://www.psychology.org.au/Assets/Fil ... Review.pdf
not only has research indicated that parenting by same-sex parents is not poorer,
but that it appears, in some aspects at least, likely to be somewhat better. Similarly, research has not only indicated that the outcomes of children of same-sex parents are not poorer, but that outcomes
would seem to be likely to be at least as favourable (e.g., see Biblarz & Stacey, 2006; Coontz, 1997; Johnson & O’Connor, 2002; Kershaw, 2000; McNair, 2004; Millbank, 2003; Patterson, 2000; Stacey & Biblarz, 2001; Tasker, 2005; VLRC, 2007). Reviewers have also increasingly taken note of the links between positive parenting practices and children’s experiences and outcomes. For example, summary statements from recent reviews include:
[S]ome new research suggests that lesbian and gay families are in some respects better for children than heterosexual families… Research on the division of parenting and household labour among lesbian co-parents and gay-co-parents has shown a distinct pattern of equality and sharing compared to heterosexual parents, with corresponding positive well-being for the partner’s relationship with each other, and the child’s adjustment. (Millbank, 2003, pp. 546-547)

What differences have emerged, however, suggest that gay and lesbian parents tend to be more responsive to their children, more child oriented, and more egalitarian in their sharing of the workload, characteristics associated with a more positive child outcome. (Johnson & O’Connor,
2002, p. 67)

The research indicates that parenting practices and children’s outcomes in families parented by lesbian and gay parents are likely to be at least as favourable as those in families of heterosexual parents, despite the reality that considerable legal discrimination and inequity remain significant challenges for these families.

[more to come]

[Autodidact]

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[Autodidact]

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2009-08918-000/

In most ways, the accumulated research shows, children of same-sex parents are not markedly different from those of heterosexual parents. They show no increased incidence of psychiatric disorders, are just as popular at school and have just as many friends...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/08/magaz ... wln-t.html

Gay parents "tend to be more motivated, more committed than heterosexual parents on average, because they chose to be parents," said Abbie Goldberg, a psychologist at Clark University in Massachusetts who researches gay and lesbian parenting. Gays and lesbians rarely become parents by accident, compared with an almost 50 percent accidental pregnancy rate among heterosexuals, Goldberg said. "That translates to greater commitment on average and more involvement."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/1 ... 08659.html