Why worship a "god" that threatens you?

[OpiatefortheMasses]

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

[OpiatefortheMasses]

I think God doesn't threaten anyone and neither does he need anything from us.
Wow, you should read the Christian bible someday then….. http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide2.htm
1127 acts of evil and 110 mentions of love…some of the false reference of loves.

Actually, I have read the bible and hell will always be a threat. It's simply extortion. The "god" of the bible created the scenario and manipulated every aspect of it. Hell, sin, salvation, the "forbidden fruit", all of it was created by "god". Think of it as a doctor holding a vaccine for a disease he created and only administering to people that allow themselves to be subjugated by him. I don't think I'd be out of line by calling that doctor manipulative and malicious.

Now, you say he doesn't need anything from us. If that's true then why does he want us to praise him constantly? Why does he care if people don't and if he does care why would he send people to hell simply for not praising him? This behavior seems rather petty for an omniscient being. It also paints him him as a tad insecure which is entirely too human of an emotion for a "god" in my opinion.

The purest form of love in my opinion is unconditional love "god's love" cannot be described as that since he's willing to send people to hell for not loving him. Personally, I don't think the "god" of the bible cares much about love but rather control. Control makes more sense when you look at all the variables where as love just leaves people with more questions.

[Chase200mph]

I think God doesn't threaten anyone and neither does he need anything from us.
Wow, you should read the Christian bible someday then….. http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide2.htm
1127 acts of evil and 110 mentions of love…some of the false reference of loves.

Actually, I have read the bible and hell will always be a threat. It's simply extortion. The "god" of the bible created the scenario and manipulated every aspect of it. Hell, sin, salvation, the "forbidden fruit", all of it was created by "god". Think of it as a doctor holding a vaccine for a disease he created and only administering to people that allow themselves to be subjugated by him. I don't think I'd be out of line by calling that doctor manipulative and malicious.

Now, you say he doesn't need anything from us. If that's true then why does he want us to praise him constantly? Why does he care if people don't and if he does care why would he send people to hell simply for not praising him? This behavior seems rather petty for an omniscient being. It also paints him him as a tad insecure which is entirely too human of an emotion for a "god" in my opinion.

The purest form of love in my opinion is unconditional love "god's love" cannot be described as that since he's willing to send people to hell for not loving him. Personally, I don't think the "god" of the bible cares much about love but rather control. Control makes more sense when you look at all the variables where as love just leaves people with more questions.

Sorry, my sarcasm was meant for the bible because god hates/threatens everyone….so let me add to the doctor scenario, not only does the doctor extort the cure, he infects you a deadly illness because he is pissed off at somebody you never met. He’s decided that since these other person/s used their freewill (extended as an offer from the doctor in the first place), that freewill now condemns all. The doctors’ irrational behavior is that of a scorn lover, the doctor is therefore gay or insane….or the writers of this tale are. Except we know this story is fiction and we are not trying to pass it of as a religion professing its apparently missing wisdom.

[I Wear White Socks]

Actually, I have read the bible and hell will always be a threat. It's simply extortion. The "god" of the bible created the scenario and manipulated every aspect of it. Hell, sin, salvation, the "forbidden fruit", all of it was created by "god".

I created a thread on this very topic titled, "Free Will as a Set-Up to Blame the Victims". It went on for 12 pages. Here are some highlights:

1. I pointed out that if bible-god is going to fix it so people won't sin in eternity without violating their free will, he could just as easily have created them incapable of sinning without violating their free will in the beginning, thus sparing anyone hell at the end. I still haven't gotten a straightforward answer as to why freedom necessitates hell in this context.

2. Someone claimed omniscience does not include all foreknowledge. ... So why call it omniscience?

3. They blurred the distinction between accountability and responsibility. This allows bible-god to put the rope of free will around your neck and call it a gift, just so he can stand back to watch you hang yourself with it and call that love.

4. They failed to realize that if bible-god formed any "plan" involving the so-called fall, then human will is bound and subordinate to this preplanned "planning" and therefore is not free in any real sense of the word, regardless of how mysterious it is said to be.

5. I pointed out that a choice between two beneficial outcomes is no less a choice and no less free than a choice including negative consequences. The answer I got to this philosophical observation was, “…it is only not necessary UNTIL it is necessary.� Is it just me, or is this just a meaningless assertion that avoids the question?

6. They jumbled up the concepts of love, will, choice and consequences until none has any meaning in itself. Love means choice means accountability means obedience means consequence means laws means freedom means will means love. It's a conceptual shell game.

7. I got called rhetorical and talked down to in a paternalistic manner to invoke an abstract sense of moral naughtiness and shame, because I quote, "don't like to be told that anything I want to do might just cause me, or someone else, harm." When I pointed out the difference between victimless behaviors and crimes of violence and abuse, it was suggested that simply doing what I want to with my own body and life is a threat to Christian beliefs and therefore should be suppressed by the government. Notice how Christians define free will for themselves as a "choice to choose behavior" while defining free will for the unbeliever as a "choice to change behavior".

Christian apologists usually resort to a type of voluntarism which pretends to turn an "is" into an "ought" with the proposition that the ability to do as one wills "ought" to be the ability to "will one's self to will". Willing one's self to will (like bible-god can) is a human impossibility. This fact is hijacked & disguised as presupposed evidence that the human will must be fallen, broken, flawed. This imaginary "is/ought" trap won't work on those who know the difference between willing to do as one wills & willing to will what one wills.

This voluntarism also means the only safe way of exercising your will is by restraining yourself from freely doing as you will. The only choices are to obey or be damned. There is no choice to disobey and not be damned. Eliminating that choice defeats the whole purpose of free will, unless, of course, it was all a set-up to criminalize the victims to begin with.

[ttruscott]

God threatens people?

I don't think so...

God just tells us the truth about whether we are damned or part of HIS sinful church which needs to become holy so that HE can fulfill the sentence of damnation against our eternal enemies...

that's all.

If you chose to be HIS eternal enemy then too bad for you. No threat - just the truth of your damnation.

If you are one of HIS sinful elect who rebelled against this justified damnation of our eternal enemies, then get with the program ! to be free of them!

Peace to all,

Ted

[OpiatefortheMasses]

Sorry, my sarcasm was meant for the bible because god hates/threatens everyone….so let me add to the doctor scenario, not only does the doctor extort the cure, he infects you a deadly illness because he is pissed off at somebody you never met. He’s decided that since these other person/s used their freewill (extended as an offer from the doctor in the first place), that freewill now condemns all. The doctors’ irrational behavior is that of a scorn lover, the doctor is therefore gay or insane….or the writers of this tale are. Except we know this story is fiction and we are not trying to pass it of as a religion professing its apparently missing wisdom.

Sorry, I kinda jumped the gun a tad. Sometimes it's hard to tell when someone's being sarcastic on here. Actually, I thought I included the fact that the doctor is also the one who created the virus or infection in the first place but I guess I forgot that part. I don't know about the doctor being gay per say but I'd definitely agree with insane or at least unbelievably insecure. Also, the person that would actually call the doctor scenario "love" would be comparable to a battered spouse claiming something along the lines of "he only beats me because he loves me" which is why I believe people who believe in the biblical "god" and say they love are either alright with being the victim or too afraid to of punishment. That's just my opinion though.

[OpiatefortheMasses]

God threatens people?

I don't think so...

God just tells us the truth about whether we are damned or part of HIS sinful church which needs to become holy so that HE can fulfill the sentence of damnation against our eternal enemies...

that's all.

If you chose to be HIS eternal enemy then too bad for you. No threat - just the truth of your damnation.

If you are one of HIS sinful elect who rebelled against this justified damnation of our eternal enemies, then get with the program ! to be free of them!

Peace to all,

Ted

So if I held a gun to your head and told you "worship me or else I shoot" I'm not in any way threatening you but rather just telling you the "truth"?

[Autodidact]

Just as a side note, do atheists realize how much bullying and threatening they do? For example, in this thread. We who believe are told our God is an extortioner. (This appears to be bullying to me). That can only be true if God does not deserve our worship. If He ahsn't earned it. For instance, if God created us, then He would deserve our recognition and worship. If God is powerful enough to breathe stars out of His mouth, He deserves our worship. If He deserves our worship and we don't worship Him, He would have the Right to punish us for that wrong. How would this then be extortion?

Bully #2. We are told God is demanding us to love Him in the same way a person would hold a gun to our head and demand we love him. This is only true if God is a person. If He is our creator, it would be a whole different story.

Bully #3. We are told there is no God by atheists constantly. My whole life revolves around God. If it weren't for my belief in Him, I would be dead. Just by listing the Atheist group under their avatar, they are threatening my way of life. I understand I am doing the same by being a Christian. But why not lay off calling each other bullys?

So to you, debate is seen as bullying? And merely by disagreeing with you, people threaten your way of life? No, you don't threaten my way of life just be disagreeing with me; I'm comfortable with that. It's only when you round us up and burn us at the stake that we really feel threatened. It sounds to me like participating in this forum is a problem for you.

I gather you don't have any actual response to the OP?

[wonderer]

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?1. I pointed out that if bible-god is going to fix it so people won't sin in eternity without violating their free will, he could just as easily have created them incapable of sinning without violating their free will in the beginning, thus sparing anyone hell at the end. I still haven't gotten a straightforward answer as to why freedom necessitates hell in this context.

[/quote]

I like this point. I've never received an answer to it, either.
Another option is God could have forseen which humans would 'choose' him and which wouldn't, and only allow the 'good' ones to be conceived and born. Thus they would still have 'free will', if that's so important to God, and there's nothing in the Bible to say that that was his reason for allowing sin, yet it would avoid the 'necessity' of hell and of punishments in this life. All the people he selected to be conceived and born could end up in heaven, a win win situation.

[bluethread]

I haven't read all of the posts, so this may have been mentioned. However, a couple of analogous questions would be why honor a government or parent that threatens you? One must of course be clear on what constitutes a threat. However, isn't it the role governements and parents to set limits on one's behavior and prosecute violators of, or at least warn of the consequences of violating, those limits?

[bluethread]

Another option is God could have forseen which humans would 'choose' him and which wouldn't, and only allow the 'good' ones to be conceived and born. Thus they would still have 'free will', if that's so important to God, and there's nothing in the Bible to say that that was his reason for allowing sin, yet it would avoid the 'necessity' of hell and of punishments in this life. All the people he selected to be conceived and born could end up in heaven, a win win situation.

That appears to be Paul's hypothetical, in answer to the question. (Rom. 9:22) "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known , endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"