I am seriously questioning my atheism

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Haven

I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Disclaimer: This post may be out of place on the Christianity and Apologetics forum (even though it does have some relation to Christianity), if it is, I apologize and ask that it be moved to a more appropriate place on the forum. However, I do intend this thread to be a discussion, if not a debate, so I felt this was the best place for it.

As many of you know, I am an ex-evangelical Christian and a current atheist. By "atheist," I mean I lack belief in god(s) of any kind, although I do not assert that there are definitely no gods. Since departing from Christianity, everything has made so much more sense: an eternal Universe (defined as the totality of natural existence) explained existence, evolution explained the diversity of life on earth, the absence of god(s) explained the problems of evil, inconsistent revelation, and so on.

However, there is one thing that I have been unable to account for under atheism: morality. Atheists almost invariably state that moral values and duties are not objective facts, but are simply subjective statements of preference and have no ontological value. That is, of course, until we are presented with cases of true evil, such as the Holocaust, the atrocities of Pol Pot, or the horrible psychopathic serial killings of individuals like Jeffery Dahmer. Then we as atheists tacitly appeal to objective moral values and duties, saying that individuals who commit should be severely punished (even executed) for doing "evil," saying that they "knew right from wrong." But if right and wrong are simply statements of subjective opinion, then how can we say that others knew "right from wrong" and are accountable for their actions? If relativism is true, they simply had differing opinions from the majority of human beings. However, it seems obvious to me (and to the vast majority of others, theist and atheist alike) that this is absurd -- the monsters who carried out the aforementioned acts really, objectively did evil.

Given this, the only reasonable conclusion is that moral facts and imperatives exist.

However, atheism appears to offer no framework for moral facts. Because of this, a few weeks ago, I started up a discussion on Wielenbergian moral realism, which states that objective moral values are simply "brute facts" that exist without any explanation. However, others rightly pointed out that the existence of "brute facts" is ontologically problematic and that the best explanation (on atheism) is that morality is simply subjective. Additionally, even if atheistic moral facts existed, the Humeian problem of deriving an "ought" from an "is" would preclude them from acting as moral imperatives; commands which human beings are obligated to follow.

In light of these airtight logical objections to atheistic moral realism, I was forced to abandon my position on moral facts and tentatively adopt moral relativism. However, relativism still seems problematic. After all, if morality is subjective, no one person can accuse another of failing to recognize the difference between "right and wrong," however, it is obvious to me (and, I would suspect, to other atheists as well) that right or wrong really objectively (not subjectively) exist.

The only rational conclusion I can seem to come up with is that there is a (are) transcendent moral lawgiver(s) who both grounds moral facts and issues binding moral commands on all humanity; i.e., God(s). This echoes evangelical Christian philosopher William Lane Craig's moral argument, which syllogism reads:
WLC wrote:Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists
Premises 1 and 2 seem bulletproof -- (1) was demonstrated earlier in this post, leaving (2) as the only premise to attack. However, (2) seems to be as obvious as a hand in front of my face. The conclusion necessarily follows from (1) and (2), so is there any rational reason for me to reject the conclusion of the argument?

Remember, I am no believer of any kind. I am a staunch, educated, informed atheist, and I am well aware of the philosophical arguments against God(s), such as the problem of evil, the dysteleological argument, the problem of omniscience, etc. I'm also well aware of the plentiful empirical evidence against the existence of God(s), for instance, evolution, mind-body physicalism, etc. These are the reasons I reconverted from Christianity in the first place. However, I don't see way around this problem other than to accept either that our apparently obvious sense of moral facts is somehow mistaken, or that (a) theistic being(s) exist.

Debate question: Are my issues with atheism legitimate? Can atheism provide a coherent moral framework other than nihilism, relativism, or subjectivism? Do these problems really present evidence for theism? Is William Lane Craig right? Is this a real problem for atheism, or are my (our) emotions simply overriding my (our) rationality?

Feel free to present evidence for or against atheism, Christianity, or any religious or nonreligious perspective in this thread.

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Post #441

Post by PGA »

Hi Artie,
I have read through your posts several times. I was thinking about answering them point by point but there are so many points and questions and illogical statements it's practically impossible.

God drowned practically every man, woman and child on the planet and also a lot of the animals. And you find this perfectly moral simply because it's God doing it and He has the right to kill anyone he chooses. He also commands:

"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. -- Leviticus 20:10"

"Six days shall work bedone, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. -- Exodus 35:2"

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:13"

and on and on

You actually said: "Would you rather come up against an unjust judge who winked at wrongful acts or against a just judge who addressed the issues fairly?" Surely if you were gay, or an adulterer or has ever worked on a Sunday you wouldn't want God as your judge would you? Would you even get out of the courtroom alive? –Artie
Again you fail to realize who sets the rules, rules that are good so that when God punishes it is for something that is evil. Artie, if you made something do you not have the right to determine how it acts or what its function/purpose will be? If you rule then do you not have the right to determine/decree what is to be obeyed? There is nothing illogical about that. It is common sense. Since God is sovereign over His creation and since He is good and just He judges that which is neither by those who break His commands or in the action of His Son – the Sacrifice and Scapegoat. The whole Bible points to this fact.

The point is that none of us in our own merit can stand before God guiltless. It requires the action of God, in Christ, to supply that just merit and sacrifice for our sins.

Why do you as an individual get to determine for mankind what is just and what is unjust, what actions are good and what is evil? What authority do you have to say that God is evil? Our knowledge as human’s is limited and flawed. We need to see things from an objective, omniscient, omnipotent, unchanging standpoint in order to truly know and see.

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Post #442

Post by Slopeshoulder »

PGA wrote:Hi Artie,
I have read through your posts several times. I was thinking about answering them point by point but there are so many points and questions and illogical statements it's practically impossible.

God drowned practically every man, woman and child on the planet and also a lot of the animals. And you find this perfectly moral simply because it's God doing it and He has the right to kill anyone he chooses. He also commands:

"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. -- Leviticus 20:10"

"Six days shall work bedone, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. -- Exodus 35:2"

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:13"

and on and on

You actually said: "Would you rather come up against an unjust judge who winked at wrongful acts or against a just judge who addressed the issues fairly?" Surely if you were gay, or an adulterer or has ever worked on a Sunday you wouldn't want God as your judge would you? Would you even get out of the courtroom alive? –Artie
Again you fail to realize who sets the rules, rules that are good so that when God punishes it is for something that is evil. Artie, if you made something do you not have the right to determine how it acts or what its function/purpose will be? If you rule then do you not have the right to determine/decree what is to be obeyed? There is nothing illogical about that. It is common sense. Since God is sovereign over His creation and since He is good and just He judges that which is neither by those who break His commands or in the action of His Son – the Sacrifice and Scapegoat. The whole Bible points to this fact.

The point is that none of us in our own merit can stand before God guiltless. It requires the action of God, in Christ, to supply that just merit and sacrifice for our sins.

Why do you as an individual get to determine for mankind what is just and what is unjust, what actions are good and what is evil? What authority do you have to say that God is evil? Our knowledge as human’s is limited and flawed. We need to see things from an objective, omniscient, omnipotent, unchanging standpoint in order to truly know and see.
An interesting expression of calvinist christianity and its dependence on the (interpretive) notion of total depravity. If there is logic in there, it is presuppositional in nature only, hardly "common sense." FWIW, and in full disclosure, I consider this version of christianity to be on the short list of worst ideas ever, up there with the "great leap forward", the "cultural revolution", anti-semitism, and the beatles breakup.

But what of catholic christianity? Different. In that version, the content of conscience is imprinted in our hearts by God, reason is a blessing and a duty, and the ongoing life of the community, from highest theologian to lowliest kneeler, is a not-depraved and therefore a reliable guide, especially when mediated in community and the church (exceptin' when they were genocidal too against cathars for instance).

So if something, oh say genocide, even by God, offends conscience, deviates from current community standards, and seems irrational (as genocide is by definition), then it is is good and proper to call it wrong, and it is our sacred right, duty, and freedom to do so. If we call it wrong, then we have a few choices. Either God is an immoral monster because he goes against his own moral law, or God is an immoral monster because there is a God higher than him who knows better and is the real god (as ancient Gnostics taught), or the ancient Hebrews were wrong to credit/blame god for their slauthering ways, or it was just exaggeration after the fact that was uspposed to show God's favor and a version fo righteousness to an unstable nation that couldn't live up to it's own laws (collected in leviticus, a horror story if there ever was one).

I opt for option three: they were wrong. They were people of their time, genociding their way like every other tribe-cum-nation to some land, and what is interesting is how and why they interpreted all of life as with-God-in-covenant, thematically and overall.

This seems so much more of a reasonable interpretation than the circular, extraordinarily anti-human, ghoulish and tortured logic of : God's perfect, God makes the rules, humans are utterly depraved, the bible is literally true even in its magic bits, don't question God he's right, and if it offends your conscience, then ignore it, and if it doesn't offend your conscience don't feel guilty, it's OK to hate and kill God's alleged enemies if he tells you to. IMO that is the living breathing soul of nonsense in every sense.

If I believed in satan I'd say it's satan at work, but IMO it is at least satanic in the literary sense insofar as it is sophistry and about self-aggrandizement and violence. I can only wish God had ordered Calvin eliminated. But he doesn't do that; people only imagine he does in their fantastical projections that serve their will-to-power. And all this rather than simply 1. raise one's theological anthropology just a scootch t somewhat deoraved rather than utterly depraved, trusting conscience, reason, and the evolving community, or 2. stop being a literalist/historicist. I doubt even Mr. Divine Sovereignty himself, the iconic orthodox reformed (calvinist) theologian Karl Barth, was calling ixnay on criticizing OT genocide.

Give me Catholicism, at its best, any day. So much more reason, conscience, living tradition outside a fetishistic and idolatrous biblicism, and, um, common sense too.

Funny though, mainstream and merged Presbyterians (reformed/calvinist tradition) have been some of the most thoughtful and progressive thinkers out there about the bible and the modern church (they led the anti-fundamentalist defense when fundamentalists invented themselves in the 1920's and imagined they were the only real Christians, for what I can only presume was for martial or humorous purposes). I wonder how many presbyterians are condoning even one ancient genocide from the pulpit? Answer: None, because they're not literalists. But extremistst are literalists and their fruits make them known. This forum brings 'em out and is a good place to fight them.

In a strange way, I take delight in these detailed and dogged public proclamations in favor of genocide allegedly ordered by an allegedly perfect sovereign God, and the full expression of the tortured (no pun intended) arguments brought to bear. It's useful information, no? One might even say a revelation.

PSA: I'm currently accepting tokens. :lol: :lol:

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Post #443

Post by 1robin »

Artie wrote:
1robin wrote:
Artie wrote:
1robin wrote:This idea is satisfactorily explained by idea that we are made in God's image and in fact have a intrensic moral compass. (which can be ignored or followed)
Well, let us all then follow God's moral compass that shows us we are supposed to kill adulterers, homosexuals and people working on Sunday. How wonderful it is to have such a moral compass.

"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbors wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. -- Leviticus 20:10"

"Six days shall work bedone, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. -- Exodus 35:2"

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:13"
All these laws applied to a distinct society and time frame.
Are you actually saying that once upon a time it was moral to kill adulterers, gays and people working on Sunday?
This is the kind of an argument that isn't an argument. It is just someone hostile to Christianity fixating on anything that they think is damaging or shocking without actually making case of anykind. Since virtually every society that has existed has had harsh penalties for various things that others don't agree with this isn't all that shocking. I will answer your question this way if my interpretation of the part of the bible mentioned by you is correct and there is a God that gave this revelation then yes it was moral. In a Godless society such as the Aztec they continuously cut the hearts out of their neibors at times 20,000 a day. In a Godless world by what right could anyone have stopped them. If you actually include the context of the bible in mind instead of drive by cherrypicking things you think are damning you would realise that God at the time the Levitical laws were given was trying to establish a group of people that would be somewhat righteous as compared to everyone around them. This was needed to attract attention to the fact that they were more moral than their neiboors and thus result in their message having more impact. They were surrounded by immoral nations and God knew that it was going to hard for the Jews to resist their influence. So he imposed these penalties on them to fight this tendency. I believe that the Torah records methods similar to modern appeal concepts and the bible lists sanctuary cities for those guilty of murder. While the old testament contains strict moral obligations it is not quite North Korea. The caracter of God is rendered imperfectly in these systems of laws and sacrifice. For the most clear and concise view of God then Christ's life is the more relevant and accurate.

Wherever Jesus has been proclaimed, lives have been changed for the good, nations have changed for the better, thieves are made honest, alcoholics are cured, hateful individuals become channels of love, unjust persons become just.

William Lecky, one of Great Britain's most noted historians and a dedicated opponent of organized Christianity, writes: "It was reserved for Christianity to present to the world an ideal character which through all the changes of 18 centuries has inspired the hearts of men with an impassioned love; has shown itself capable of acting on all ages, nations, temperaments and conditions; has been not only the highest pattern of virtue, but the strongest incentive to its practice.... The simple record of these 3 short years of active life has done more to regenerate and soften mankind than all the disquisitions of philosophers and all the exhortations of moralists."

The life of Jesus was intended to give an unclouded crystal clear view of God's character and it the most benevolent example of conduct in history. This trumps your cherry picked contextless points.

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Post #444

Post by Artie »

1robin wrote:It is just someone hostile to Christianity fixating on anything that they think is damaging or shocking without actually making case of anykind.
My case is simple: Killing gays for being gay is wrong. And it's not like the word of God is not followed today by Christians.

"Pastor Orders His Flock to Beat Gay Couple Arriving At Church"

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/10/04 ... at-church/
In a Godless society such as the Aztec they continuously cut the hearts out of their neibors at times 20,000 a day. In a Godless world by what right could anyone have stopped them.
What if someone had tried to stop the slaughter of women and children commanded by God in the OT? Would they be immoral because they went against God?
Wherever Jesus has been proclaimed, lives have been changed for the good, nations have changed for the better, thieves are made honest, alcoholics are cured, hateful individuals become channels of love, unjust persons become just.
Right. So you are unaware that the US where almost four out of five are Christians have the highest crime rate in the world and that secular nations are consistently rated as the best countries to live in in the world?

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-te ... rates.html

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Post #445

Post by 1robin »

Artie wrote:
1robin wrote:It is just someone hostile to Christianity fixating on anything that they think is damaging or shocking without actually making case of anykind.
My case is simple: Killing gays for being gay is wrong. And it's not like the word of God is not followed today by Christians.

"Pastor Orders His Flock to Beat Gay Couple Arriving At Church"

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/10/04 ... at-church/
In a Godless society such as the Aztec they continuously cut the hearts out of their neibors at times 20,000 a day. In a Godless world by what right could anyone have stopped them.
What if someone had tried to stop the slaughter of women and children commanded by God in the OT? Would they be immoral because they went against God?
Wherever Jesus has been proclaimed, lives have been changed for the good, nations have changed for the better, thieves are made honest, alcoholics are cured, hateful individuals become channels of love, unjust persons become just.
Right. So you are unaware that the US where almost four out of five are Christians have the highest crime rate in the world and that secular nations are consistently rated as the best countries to live in in the world?

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-te ... rates.html
Finding some extremely rare exception to the overwhelmingly peaceful attitude of modern Christians is meaningless. Actually that act was done against the teachings of the bible so it says nothing whatsoever about Christianity at all. Why didn't you mention the 10,000 other chruches that performed acts of benevolence that same day around the world, or compare that isolated episode to the millions people like Stalin, and Lenin killed in the name of getting rid of religion.

I do not have the ability to carry on a question and answer session with God at my whim so I am not sure. However by judgeing his overall character as related by the bible then I would say if that person had not been instructed to do what the Jews were commanded to do then God would have shown compassion on this person but that is my opinion.


The U.S. is not by any stretch of the imagination actually made up of 4/5ths Christian. When a nonChristian deals with this subject they are at a disadvantage but you can verify what I say by checking it against the bible or a respected pastor. There are many people who have gone to church at some point or like the message of Christ and if asked to choose they would say that they are a Christian, mainly because that is supposed to be good and atheism has a social stigma. However none of these people are true Christians, until you have been born again you are no more a Christian than attila the hun (your moral status is not the determination of whether you are a Christian or not evn though a Christian should have high moral standards). Sitting in a church doesn't make you a Christian any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car. Being born again changes your very nature and produces a different person by the experience. In my opinion there might be 1 out of 5 who meet this condition. The bible makes it very clear that the true believers are always a minority. So what this country does is more of a result of haveing more freedom than most nations.
Once again you cherry picked data, you did not mention we give more money in foreign aid than anyone, as well as have the highest standard of living in the world (or atleast we did until recently). We have also been willing to die to save other nations from destruction by evil men.

I thought this thread was supposed to be on objective morality not biblical morality.

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Post #446

Post by Artie »

1robin wrote:The U.S. is not by any stretch of the imagination actually made up of 4/5ths Christian.
"The majority of Americans (60% to 76%) identify themselves as Christians, mostly within Protestant and Catholic denominations, accounting for 51% and 25% of the population respectively." Wikipedia
There are many people who have gone to church at some point or like the message of Christ and if asked to choose they would say that they are a Christian, mainly because that is supposed to be good and atheism has a social stigma. However none of these people are true Christians, until you have been born again you are no more a Christian than attila the hun (your moral status is not the determination of whether you are a Christian or not evn though a Christian should have high moral standards). Sitting in a church doesn't make you a Christian any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car. Being born again changes your very nature and produces a different person by the experience. In my opinion there might be 1 out of 5 who meet this condition. The bible makes it very clear that the true believers are always a minority. So what this country does is more of a result of haveing more freedom than most nations.
Once again you cherry picked data,
I don't have any official statistics showing how many are "true" Christians. Do you?
you did not mention we give more money in foreign aid than anyone,
Actually, Norway gives most money in foreign aid per capita than anyone else. http://mindcheese.com/wordpress/?p=1299 "In 2005, a survey conducted by Gallup International in sixty-five countries indicated that Norway was the least religious country in Western Europe" Wikipedia
as well as have the highest standard of living in the world (or atleast we did until recently).
On every recent poll Norway and other non-religious countries are consistently voted as the best countries to live in in the world.
We have also been willing to die to save other nations from destruction by evil men.
Many Norwegians have also died in peacekeeping missions.
I thought this thread was supposed to be on objective morality not biblical morality.

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Post #447

Post by 1robin »

Artie wrote:
1robin wrote:The U.S. is not by any stretch of the imagination actually made up of 4/5ths Christian.
"The majority of Americans (60% to 76%) identify themselves as Christians, mostly within Protestant and Catholic denominations, accounting for 51% and 25% of the population respectively." Wikipedia
There are many people who have gone to church at some point or like the message of Christ and if asked to choose they would say that they are a Christian, mainly because that is supposed to be good and atheism has a social stigma. However none of these people are true Christians, until you have been born again you are no more a Christian than attila the hun (your moral status is not the determination of whether you are a Christian or not evn though a Christian should have high moral standards). Sitting in a church doesn't make you a Christian any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car. Being born again changes your very nature and produces a different person by the experience. In my opinion there might be 1 out of 5 who meet this condition. The bible makes it very clear that the true believers are always a minority. So what this country does is more of a result of haveing more freedom than most nations.
Once again you cherry picked data,
I don't have any official statistics showing how many are "true" Christians. Do you?
you did not mention we give more money in foreign aid than anyone,
Actually, Norway gives most money in foreign aid per capita than anyone else. http://mindcheese.com/wordpress/?p=1299 "In 2005, a survey conducted by Gallup International in sixty-five countries indicated that Norway was the least religious country in Western Europe" Wikipedia
as well as have the highest standard of living in the world (or atleast we did until recently).
On every recent poll Norway and other non-religious countries are consistently voted as the best countries to live in in the world.
We have also been willing to die to save other nations from destruction by evil men.
Many Norwegians have also died in peacekeeping missions.
I thought this thread was supposed to be on objective morality not biblical morality.
I mentioned that those percentages are vastly inacurate I even tried to explain the reasons they are. I also mentioned the exact percentage I gave is my opinion. So why you quoted some more statistics after I had said all this I don't know. Christianity is considered good atheism, and other religions bad, so if a person has to choose 9like in a poll) they choose Christianity. Let Christ define what a Christian is, not wikipedia. The bible always makes it clear that true born again Christians have always been a small minority. I realize this is my word and that you can't have confidense in it's accuracy unless you are a true Christian, but this is irrelevant anyway. Christianity itself cannot be judged by people prefessing faith that are acting contrary that faith. You can assign guilt to the person but not the religion. Stalin acting the way he did is perfectly cinsistent with atheism. Atheism cannot account for the sanctity of life, nor objective morality so why not kill someone. The ideaology is consistent. I am not claiming that atheists want to do what Stalin did nor that they can't be good people. How did we go from objective morals to me defending Christ, then Christianity, now I am defending the US. To bring this sidetracked line of reasoning to an end the U.S. gives more than any other country to charitable causes, the last I checked Japan gave more per capita than norway but this has nothing to do with nothing, if we are not at the top anymore concerning standard of living we are toward the top so whatever your point was about how bad the US is is void. Where does the Norway obsession come from. Are you from there? Why don't you compare the amount of lives this country has lost and the money that we have spent on defending OTHER PEOPLE vs Norway and then let me know if you still consider the US such a bad place. However I don't want to defend the US, so why don't you make a comment relevant to the thread whatever that was and then we can have a relevant discussion. I have nothing against Norway by the way.

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Post #448

Post by Artie »

1robin wrote:Atheism cannot account for the sanctity of life, nor objective morality so why not kill someone.
Drowning practically every person and a lot of the animals on the planet is the same as showing sanctity for life? How do you even manage to say that a being performing genocide has any sanctity for life? Atheism has nothing to do with sanctity of life. It's just a non-belief in deities. The sanctity of life is accounted for by logic, reason and common sense, knowledge of how and why morals developed, conscience, upbringing, the social contracts and laws of the land you live in.

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Post #449

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 447:
1robin wrote: ...
Let Christ define what a Christian is, not wikipedia. The bible always makes it clear that true born again Christians have always been a small minority. I realize this is my word and that you can't have confidense in it's accuracy unless you are a true Christian, but this is irrelevant anyway. Christianity itself cannot be judged by people prefessing faith that are acting contrary that faith. You can assign guilt to the person but not the religion.
Plenty fair.
1robin wrote: Stalin acting the way he did is perfectly cinsistent with atheism.
This atheist contends that the moral values I derive "after" accepting atheism would preclude my wanting to slaughter folks, while also contending some folks are of such a character as to warrant their own slaughter (murderers, rapists, pedophiles, etc.).
1robin wrote: Atheism cannot account for the sanctity of life...
This atheist accounts for the sanctity of life 'cause here I am in among it.
1robin wrote: nor objective morality...
I challenge anyone to produce an "objective moral" that doesn't rely on the subjective to get it there.
1robin wrote: so why not kill someone.
I don't go around randomly killing folks because of my stance on the sanctity of life.
1robin wrote: To bring this sidetracked line of reasoning to an end the U.S. gives more than any other country to charitable causes...
Yours is ostensibly an argument from numbers, where such skews the contributions of poorer nations. We also incarcerate folks for smoking a hooter.

I leave the remainder of the post for others.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Post #450

Post by 1robin »

Artie wrote:
1robin wrote:Atheism cannot account for the sanctity of life, nor objective morality so why not kill someone.
Drowning practically every person and a lot of the animals on the planet is the same as showing sanctity for life? How do you even manage to say that a being performing genocide has any sanctity for life? Atheism has nothing to do with sanctity of life. It's just a non-belief in deities. The sanctity of life is accounted for by logic, reason and common sense, knowledge of how and why morals developed, conscience, upbringing, the social contracts and laws of the land you live in.
I guess the original subject of objective morality has been substituted with somehow convincing yourself that you have the intelligence, wisdom, and knowledge to evaluate God almighty's moral state. Since we always come back to your unqualified accusations against an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent entity I will play along until I get bored.

1. The flood: If you were familiar with the story you would notice that the bible records that man had become completely corrupt, all they did continually was evil. So God gave them many years and many occasions to repent and they refused so he killed them all except for the only few that believed in him. Now if the bible is correct then is it more merciful to let evil run completely rampant until there is nothing but oppression and misery generation after generation until man finally destroyed himself. Or is it more merciful to wipe out the problem and start over which produced at least some level of justice and mercy. The problem came because of mans sin. God mentioned in the bible that he regretted what he had to do. Since the bible records ample reason for the flood events then all you can do is to throw out the bible but then you throw out your prized story of how unjust God was and your left with no argument. While if the bible is believed it was man's fault they were wiped out and your left with no argument. Any other position is speculation of the highest degree. So you can see that in a paradigm where mans will is left to itself similar to a necessary war sometimes violence is the most benevolent solution even though it is a regrettable one.

2. Sanctity of life: You are correct in saying that Atheism has nothing in it to justify a belief that Humans are objectively worth anything more than a rock or fly. It does nothing to establish an objective value for people. Thomas Jefferson when looking for a reason to justify inalienable rights did not lean on atheism he leaned on God.

Your arguments are irrational. Your selection of isolated instances to distort the overall biblical message of love and redemption are not a result of a reasonable argumentation, but an unreasonable distaste for God. Scholars that are opposed to christianity have still overwhelmingly acknowledged that the story of Christ is the greatest example of love in human history.

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