Coming home . . .

[Haven]

Hi all,

I don't know if this is the best sub-forum to post this, and I don't know if this will be well-received, but here it is: after months of research, agonizing, and attempted debunking, I've decided to leave atheism and return to the faith of my childhood, Christianity. I don't have the time to post a long diatribe (yet, I will tomorrow), but in a nutshell the evidence for atheism was illusory and the evidence for (non-fundamentalist) Christian theism was simply too strong to ignore. I have always placed the pursuit of the truth over the pursuit of atheism, and that pursuit -- though it originally took me in an anti-theist position -- is bringing me home. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, mods, if you want to move this to RR, then please do. However, I am hoping to foster at least some discussion on atheism vs. theism, naturalism vs. Christianity, so I think this is a good place for it.

To everyone who's spoken with me here over the past few months, thanks, I really appreciate it. To my theist "foes," I'm sorry that I tried to attack your views; I now recognize you were likely right. To my fellow atheists, I thank you for your support. This doesn't mean that I will become some raving fundamentalist lunatic, I'm still into rationalism, it just led me in a new (old) direction. If you want more details, just ask.

Thanks

Debate questions: Is Haven crazy? Have I lost my mind? Is the evidence for theism greater than the evidence for atheism? Does God exist? Is rational theism possible?

[DiscipleOfTruth]

Was wondering if this could happen on here, and coincidentally I had a suspicion that you would return to christianity lol. I would like to hear the details out of curiousity, not debate. If you're not comfortable sharing the details in this thread please send me a private message.

I remember when I did return to faith it was because of a couple of thing:

1.Fear of Hell possibly existing.

2.To better get along with my family.

3.To raise my self esteem.

Edit:I just realized your debate questions, for some reason I thought it was your new signature or something lol. I don't hold the change against you, nor do I think any differently of you for your decision. When it's all said and done you have to do what you believe is right for you. I wish you the best with this path.

The answer to all of your debate questions is, possibly. It's what we as people don't know now, and may never know ever, that would help us to know those answers.

[Haven]

Was wondering if this could happen on here, and coincidentally I had a suspicion that you would return to christianity lol.

I don't know if this has ever happened here before, though I know the reverse has several times. I've been considering return for a few months now, I just wanted to make sure I was thinking rationally rather than reacting on pure emotion; I wanted to make sure the evidence was there, that the philosophical arguments were there.

I would like to hear the details out of curiousity, not debate. If you're not comfortable sharing the details in this thread please send me a private message.

Sure. The three points that were most convincing for me were:

1) The Borde-Guth-Vilenkin theorem invalidating an eternal universe / multiverse

2) The inability to account for a coherent view of morality on atheism / naturalism / non-theism

3) The evidence for the resurrection of Jesus and the ineptitude of all other naturalistic explanations. Only a presumption of naturalism and a devaluing of the prior probability of miracles kept me from believing since discussing this topic with a few Christian academics (who shall remain nameless).

I remember when I did return to faith it was because of a couple of thing:

1.Fear of Hell possibly existing.

Zero factor for me. I still lack belief in any sort of fiery hell.

2.To better get along with my family.

This played a slight role; my family is almost entirely evangelical Christian. However, this was not the primary reason for my de-deconversion.

3.To raise my self esteem.

Zero factor. If anything, my self esteem was higher as an atheist (pinnacle of evolution vs. "sinner").

The answer to all of your debate questions is, possibly. It's what we as people don't know now, and may never know ever, that would help us to know those answers.

Such is the essence of agnosticism. I suppose I could have remained with that position for the rest of my life and have been intellectually honest, but I'd find constant undecidedness banal.

[DiscipleOfTruth]

I notice that you said you lack belief in Hell. Are there any other difference in your christian beliefs that one wouldn't know unless you told them? What are the details of your Biblical interpretation of scripture that leads you to believe there isn't a Hell? And do you believe there is a Heaven? And since you don't believe in Hell what do you believe happens to people if they die as an unbeliever of your faith?

[Haven]

I notice that you said you lack belief in Hell. Are there any other difference in your christian beliefs that one wouldn't know unless you told them?

I accept the scientific consensus on evolution and the age of the Earth, I still support LGBT rights, I don't necessarily take the stories of the OT as literal, historical truth. I don't claim to have absolute knowledge that theism is true, nor do I claim that I am absolutely right (I may very well be wrong).

What are the details of your Biblical interpretation of scripture that leads you to believe there isn't a Hell?

A very long and in-depth question. As of now (keep in mind my views are still very much in flux), the variety of metaphors used to describe hell, as well as its ultimate origins from Persian / Zoroastrian religion, cause me to question its veracity.

And do you believe there is a Heaven?

I don't know; there may or may not be an afterlife. My views on this are still in flux, and I'm still largely skeptical of supernatural claims.

And since you don't believe in Hell what do you believe happens to people if they die as an unbeliever of your faith?

I don't know, my views are still in flux. I'd like to think that non-belief is not a barrier between God and humanity, but that is simply my opinion as of now -- subject to change.

[Bust Nak]

Is Haven crazy? Have I lost my mind?

You definitely seem to be experiencing a crisis of faith. Switching between polar position in short period of time.

Is the evidence for theism greater than the evidence for atheism? Does God exist? Is rational theism possible?

There is no evidence for atheism as such, only evidence that theism isn't needed to explain the world.

1) The Borde-Guth-Vilenkin theorem invalidating an eternal universe / multiverse.

If you think that our universe having a beginning was a problem to atheism, why did you become an atheist in the first place? It's not like the big bang theory or even prime mover argument was anything new.

2) The inability to account for a coherent view of morality on atheism / naturalism / non-theism.

What is so incoherent for "whatever I think is moral, is moral."

[McCulloch]

To my theist "foes," I'm sorry that I tried to attack your views; I now recognize you were likely right. To my fellow atheists, I thank you for your support. This doesn't mean that I will become some raving fundamentalist lunatic, I'm still into rationalism, it just led me in a new (old) direction.

I disagree with your conclusion, but do not apologize for debating. The whole purpose of debate is to strongly challenge opposing points of view, to eliminate error and winnow out the truth.

Is Haven crazy? Have I lost my mind? Is the evidence for theism greater than the evidence for atheism? Does God exist? Is rational theism possible?

I do not believe that rational theism is possible. Let's start with the word god. Surely you agree with me that it is not rational to claim to believe in that which you cannot even define. What is it that you mean when you use the word god? Please be as complete and precise as possible.

[His Name Is John]

You don't know how happy I am Haven

Now I never wanted to press my beliefs down your throat, and I became friends with you while you were an atheist. I would (and will) stay friends with you even if you remained an atheist. But I am happy that you have moved to being a Christian once again.

If you want to discuss anything about religion or Christianity or anything like that, please send me a message. I would love to discuss things with you as a theist.

I actually can't stop smiling This has literally made my day!

[His Name Is John]

I do not believe that rational theism is possible. Let's start with the word god. Surely you agree with me that it is not rational to claim to believe in that which you cannot even define. What is it that you mean when you use the word god? Please be as complete and precise as possible.

Presumably one could believe in God as a necessary concept.

It is a rather large claim to make that there is no such thing as rational theism. I would love to debate you on this, although I don't think I could do it as well as some others on this website.

[Moses Yoder]

I don't really see much difference between the modern Christian and the modern atheist. The difference I see mainly is that the modern Christian believes there is a God of some sort, but has doubts about it, and the atheist believes there is no God, but has doubts about it.