Pornography vs. Prostitution

[Angel]

It's hard to see a real difference between pornography and prostitution other than perhaps the latter being more risky (random sex partners) and less accepted than than the other. Other than that, both involve promiscuity, both involve having sex for money, etc. etc.

Debate Questions:
I know there's currently a legal difference between porn and prostitution (one being criminal and the other not) depending on what country you live in, but is there a real moral difference?

[Quath]

I find it odd that sex for free is ok, but not sex for money. There are very few things in life like that. The closest is organ donation. But you are really paid for the organ and the price is called something like "inconvenience fee" or something.

I have a friend of mine that we joke about retiring and starting up a brothel. But we don't want to make it fin and interesting. She wants it located in Nevada where it can easily be legal, but only in the county. I want to put it into a mall or right in the middle of town. My idea is to license the "johns" to be porn stars and then film a "movie" that maybe the only buyer will be the john.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

This whole idea of 'lets legalise it to remove the business from the criminals' is a massively flawed idea. The problem is, it applies to almost ever law of this sort (one which criminals actively partake within):

Drugs, prostitution, weapons.

Making such things legal (thus saying 'we don't think there is anything wrong with this') is hardly the answer, in the end you are making the criminal way of life the prophetic vision of future, all the while doing so in order to stop crime.

Consider the case of alcohol. Get rid of prohibition, get rid of the crime. Any situation where you replace criminals with regulated businesses has got to be more easily manageable.

What do you believe are the advantages of making prostitution and pornography illegal? I get that it allows them to arrest prostitutes as they see fit but I'm not sure what that does to improve the situation. Making pornography illegal would make life a whole lot worse for porn stars as well.

Also, you'll find that many here disagree with the notion that legalization means saying "we don't think there is anything wrong with this."

[His Name Is John]

This whole idea of 'lets legalise it to remove the business from the criminals' is a massively flawed idea. The problem is, it applies to almost ever law of this sort (one which criminals actively partake within):

Drugs, prostitution, weapons.

Making such things legal (thus saying 'we don't think there is anything wrong with this') is hardly the answer, in the end you are making the criminal way of life the prophetic vision of future, all the while doing so in order to stop crime.

Consider the case of alcohol. Get rid of prohibition, get rid of the crime. Any situation where you replace criminals with regulated businesses has got to be more easily manageable.

I disagree. I think just blanket banning everything and stamping out both porn and prostitution would be much easier. Sure there would be a couple of illegal people doing it, but I see the situation similar to the one about guns.

What do you believe are the advantages of making prostitution and pornography illegal?

You can stop the abuse, and you lessen the effects.

I get that it allows them to arrest prostitutes as they see fit but I'm not sure what that does to improve the situation.

It would make the lifes of illegal pimps much harder.

Making pornography illegal would make life a whole lot worse for porn stars as well.

Depends on what jobs they get next.

Also, you'll find that many here disagree with the notion that legalization means saying "we don't think there is anything wrong with this."

What else is it? It is a nation saying 'legally, we don't think there is anything wrong with doing this'.

To be honest I see it as a similar issue to legalized guns.

[Angel]

This whole idea of 'lets legalise it to remove the business from the criminals' is a massively flawed idea. The problem is, it applies to almost ever law of this sort (one which criminals actively partake within):

Drugs, prostitution, weapons.

Making such things legal (thus saying 'we don't think there is anything wrong with this') is hardly the answer, in the end you are making the criminal way of life the prophetic vision of future, all the while doing so in order to stop crime.

Consider the case of alcohol. Get rid of prohibition, get rid of the crime. Any situation where you replace criminals with regulated businesses has got to be more easily manageable.

I disagree. I think just blanket banning everything and stamping out both porn and prostitution would be much easier. Sure there would be a couple of illegal people doing it, but I see the situation similar to the one about guns.

I don't see how your point takes away from some of McColluch and Fuzzy Dunlop's point because I don't see how his point about alcohol did not work. Bringing up another example about guns does not disprove his point, or at least not in all cases. The only way I can see someone not wanting to consider even regulations is if they believed pornography and prostitution were wrong under any or all circumstances which you'll find varies from person to person.

I also see pornography as being in high demand so I question if banning it would lead to only "a couple" of illegals engaging in it and especially watching it. The same goes for prostitution. And I'd say that allowing porn and prostitution can help reduce crime because you can make the behavior more moderate through regulations so that way there's less opportunity for someone to be exploited. Pimps would lose some power because more women would be willing to report them without fear of getting in trouble themselves. Also, the field would be more open for anyone to prostitute instead of just those who are risking to break the law which leads to the underground activity where the pimps thrive. Perhaps the only women who the pimps can fool may be those who don't know the law or who come from other regions of the world like 3rd world countries where laws aren't as enforced.

What do you believe are the advantages of making prostitution and pornography illegal?

You can stop the abuse, and you lessen the effects.

This begs the question again regarding pornography and prostitution being abusive. But since pornography is considered okay by the government, then we can just deal with prostitution. If by abuse in prostitution you're referring to the pimps, then I'd find it easier to just limit the focus to going after pimps and traffickers rather than trying to target every prostitute on the street.

I get that it allows them to arrest prostitutes as they see fit but I'm not sure what that does to improve the situation.

It would make the lifes of illegal pimps much harder.

Well you can do both by making prostitution legal and keeping pimping illegal. I mean if the real reason the government considers prostitution wrong is just because of the potential of pimps, then I'm not sure why haven't they considered the point I and others have made esp. when they already allow pornography. Hek, we may as well just tell all of these women to turn into porn stars if they feel like they have to get money through sex.

Making pornography illegal would make life a whole lot worse for porn stars as well.

Depends on what jobs they get next.

Just hard on the porn stars? Wouldn't banning pornography make it hard on men, as well, including the Christians who secretly watch porn?

Now in all of this I'm not saying that I agree with pornography and prostitution being right, but I'm just saying there's a hypocrisy in allowing one and not the other. And also, if we can allow one then I feel that it can be worked out to where we can allow the other. After doing some research I found that Canada allows prostitution where previously I thought only some South American countries allowed it in the Western Hemisphere.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

I disagree. I think just blanket banning everything and stamping out both porn and prostitution would be much easier. Sure there would be a couple of illegal people doing it, but I see the situation similar to the one about guns.

How can you just disagree? I gave you a real world example where the principle was applied and worked perfectly.

What do you believe are the advantages of making prostitution and pornography illegal?

You can stop the abuse, and you lessen the effects.

How? Isn't this significantly harder to do when you're dealing with criminals instead of a standard workplace? I have my doubts that prohibition has ever stopped prostitution or pornography with any success anywhere, but maybe you have examples in mind.

How would you go about making pornography illegal? I imagine it would require pretty massive internet monitoring and censorship. How do you see it working? I've been to countries where pornography was illegal but still widely available to anyone willing to buy it in the streets or anyone with an internet connection and knowledge of proxies. I shudder to think what draconian measures would be required to enforce a ban effectively, but I will give you opportunity to flesh out some specifics of your vision before suggesting these difficulties apply to your position directly.

I get that it allows them to arrest prostitutes as they see fit but I'm not sure what that does to improve the situation.

It would make the lifes of illegal pimps much harder.

???? Put a prostitute in jail and the pimp finds another one. Make the life of a pimp harder and harder people will be pimps as the financial incentives grow. I don't know what you've accomplished other than created an incentive for pimps to turn more people into prostitutes, and turned more prostitutes into criminals with even poorer career outlooks than they started with. You certainly aren't going to improve the treatment of prostitutes or customers by handing the industry over to dangerous criminals.

Making pornography illegal would make life a whole lot worse for porn stars as well.

Depends on what jobs they get next.

Wait a minute - you're not saying taht making porn illegal means people would just stop making it? The porn stars of your world would be far more exploitable, there would be no age restrictions, no STD testing, nobody to file complaints with outside of police, nothing. You're taking a regulated industry and handing it over to criminals. Let's not pretend porn would just disappear, let's actually consider the consequences to the people involved.

Also, you'll find that many here disagree with the notion that legalization means saying "we don't think there is anything wrong with this."

What else is it? It is a nation saying 'legally, we don't think there is anything wrong with doing this'.

To be honest I see it as a similar issue to legalized guns.

Ok, if you're saying legalization mean that "legally, we don't think there's anything wrong with this" then that is true. What legalization does not mean is "morally, we don't think there's anything wrong with this." Perhaps you weren't making such commentary and I have misread.

[His Name Is John]

How can you just disagree? I gave you a real world example where the principle was applied and worked perfectly.

One example hardly makes a rule. In any case, the issue with alcohol and prostitution are very different.

If you are talking about real world examples how can you disagree with me when I posted quotes from leaders in countries where prostitution is now legal saying that rather than helping, it has made things worse.

How? Isn't this significantly harder to do when you're dealing with criminals instead of a standard workplace? I have my doubts that prohibition has ever stopped prostitution or pornography with any success anywhere, but maybe you have examples in mind.

In an ideal world the crack down would be very firm. You have yet to prove making it legal would make things more easy to regulate. Perhaps percentage wise it would improve, but in shear numbers I would guess that sex slaves and the illegal sex trade would grow.

How would you go about making pornography illegal? I imagine it would require pretty massive internet monitoring and censorship. How do you see it working? I've been to countries where pornography was illegal but still widely available to anyone willing to buy it in the streets or anyone with an internet connection and knowledge of proxies. I shudder to think what draconian measures would be required to enforce a ban effectively, but I will give you opportunity to flesh out some specifics of your vision before suggesting these difficulties apply to your position directly.

Who says I would work to clamp down on it?

The business would crumble. The percentage of people who have access to it would shrink. People wouldn't be making as much money. Now I wouldn't censor the internet. I would search for those producing large numbers of pornographic material and arrest them.

Some people are always going to break the law, but do we remove the law because of them? Of course not.

???? Put a prostitute in jail and the pimp finds another one. Make the life of a pimp harder and harder people will be pimps as the financial incentives grow. I don't know what you've accomplished other than created an incentive for pimps to turn more people into prostitutes, and turned more prostitutes into criminals with even poorer career outlooks than they started with. You certainly aren't going to improve the treatment of prostitutes or customers by handing the industry over to dangerous criminals.

The thing is prostitutes couldn't openly advertise themselves.

They couldn't have the 'red light' up in their window. It wouldn't be worth it.

What would happen is that it would be much harder to go to a prostitute and as there would then be less money in the business, the illegal sex trade would shrink.

Wait a minute - you're not saying taht making porn illegal means people would just stop making it? The porn stars of your world would be far more exploitable, there would be no age restrictions, no STD testing, nobody to file complaints with outside of police, nothing. You're taking a regulated industry and handing it over to criminals. Let's not pretend porn would just disappear, let's actually consider the consequences to the people involved.

Porn would shrink, not disappear. By criminals you are meaning what? If simply people who break this law, then what is so bad about that? They are simply doing exactly what they did before, just this time everyone knows it is illegal.

Ok, if you're saying legalization mean that "legally, we don't think there's anything wrong with this" then that is true. What legalization does not mean is "morally, we don't think there's anything wrong with this." Perhaps you weren't making such commentary and I have misread.

I happen to believe our legal laws should reflect our moral laws, but in any case, I was meaning 'there is nothing legally wrong with this'. I should have made myself more clear.

[Haven]

John, you seem to be advocating a theocratic police state, in which the state takes an authoritarian role in regulating personal morality. In other words, a Christian version of Iran or Saudi Arabia. I would not want to live in such a country, and I suspect most non-traditionalist s feel the same way. Why should the state regulate personal morality? Why do we need Christian Shari'a?

[His Name Is John]

John, you seem to be advocating a theocratic police state, in which the state takes an authoritarian role in regulating personal morality.

Not quite. I just believe that certain things should be illegal. Please say how objections to pornography and prostitution are the same as advocating a theocratic police state.

In other words, a Christian version of Iran or Saudi Arabia. I would not want to live in such a country, and I suspect most non-traditionalist s feel the same way. Why should the state regulate personal morality? Why do we need Christian Shari'a?

The reason most people think Shari'a law is wrong is not because of the actual laws, but because of the punishments. I am not suggesting that we introduce be-headings, or people having their arms cut off. I am against capital-punishment.

Am I not allowed to think that morally wrong actions should be illegal?

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

How can you just disagree? I gave you a real world example where the principle was applied and worked perfectly.

One example hardly makes a rule. In any case, the issue with alcohol and prostitution are very different.

What do you think the relevant differences are?

If you are talking about real world examples how can you disagree with me when I posted quotes from leaders in countries where prostitution is now legal saying that rather than helping, it has made things worse.

Let's look at the numbers and find out why and how things are getting worse. Why is there demand for illegal sex workers when legal ones are available? Perhaps this is the sort of thing that can be eliminated with simple supply and demand, such as in the case of alcohol. Why buy illegal when legal is safer and cheaper?

How? Isn't this significantly harder to do when you're dealing with criminals instead of a standard workplace? I have my doubts that prohibition has ever stopped prostitution or pornography with any success anywhere, but maybe you have examples in mind.

In an ideal world the crack down would be very firm. You have yet to prove making it legal would make things more easy to regulate. Perhaps percentage wise it would improve, but in shear numbers I would guess that sex slaves and the illegal sex trade would grow.

I'll ask you to explain this correlation. Why would you think legalizing the sex trade would lead to the growth of the illegal sex trade?

That legal things are easier to regulate is self evident. If I run a beer store, rival beer stores do not threaten me with violence if I do not leave their turf. If I'm selling illegal drugs and a rival threatens me with violence, I either buy a gun or make way for someone who will. If people want their alcohol clearly labeled as to ingredients, percentages and the like, the government is able to pass laws requiring liquor companies to comply. If people want their illegal drugs clearly labeled they are out of luck. If a porn star wants regular HIV testing in their workplace they can get it if their employer answers to the law. If they want regular HIV testing in an underground porn environment they may be fortunate if "be quiet or we'll kill your family back in Romania" is the only feedback they get from their "employer."

How would you go about making pornography illegal? I imagine it would require pretty massive internet monitoring and censorship. How do you see it working? I've been to countries where pornography was illegal but still widely available to anyone willing to buy it in the streets or anyone with an internet connection and knowledge of proxies. I shudder to think what draconian measures would be required to enforce a ban effectively, but I will give you opportunity to flesh out some specifics of your vision before suggesting these difficulties apply to your position directly.

Who says I would work to clamp down on it?

The business would crumble. The percentage of people who have access to it would shrink. People wouldn't be making as much money. Now I wouldn't censor the internet. I would search for those producing large numbers of pornographic material and arrest them.

Some people are always going to break the law, but do we remove the law because of them? Of course not.

How is access going to shrink? As it stands today, everyone with an internet connection has unlimited access to pornography. In your world, everyone with an internet connection still has unlimited access to pornography. The only thing that changes is in our world pornography is made by employees of legal companies who are treated and paid fairly, while in your world new porn would only come from the most disreputable of sources. You're throwing people in jail for no tangible benefit that I can see.

???? Put a prostitute in jail and the pimp finds another one. Make the life of a pimp harder and harder people will be pimps as the financial incentives grow. I don't know what you've accomplished other than created an incentive for pimps to turn more people into prostitutes, and turned more prostitutes into criminals with even poorer career outlooks than they started with. You certainly aren't going to improve the treatment of prostitutes or customers by handing the industry over to dangerous criminals.

The thing is prostitutes couldn't openly advertise themselves.

They couldn't have the 'red light' up in their window. It wouldn't be worth it.

What would happen is that it would be much harder to go to a prostitute and as there would then be less money in the business, the illegal sex trade would shrink.

Do you have any real world examples of such logic being applied and actually working? The persistence of prostitution for the entirety of recorded history suggests that we should have learned by now that making something illegal doesn't necessarily make it go away.

Wait a minute - you're not saying taht making porn illegal means people would just stop making it? The porn stars of your world would be far more exploitable, there would be no age restrictions, no STD testing, nobody to file complaints with outside of police, nothing. You're taking a regulated industry and handing it over to criminals. Let's not pretend porn would just disappear, let's actually consider the consequences to the people involved.

Porn would shrink, not disappear. By criminals you are meaning what? If simply people who break this law, then what is so bad about that? They are simply doing exactly what they did before, just this time everyone knows it is illegal.

You think criminal organizations care about HIV testing, fair wages, consent, legal age, etc.??? This is pretty plainly false. If my porn studio mistreats me, I can complain to whatever government organization oversees the industry (just like at any other job). If my criminal human trafficker mistreats me I can complain to him and have him point a gun at me or my family.

Ok, if you're saying legalization mean that "legally, we don't think there's anything wrong with this" then that is true. What legalization does not mean is "morally, we don't think there's anything wrong with this." Perhaps you weren't making such commentary and I have misread.

I happen to believe our legal laws should reflect our moral laws, but in any case, I was meaning 'there is nothing legally wrong with this'. I should have made myself more clear.

It was clear enough, no worries. The problem comes when we realize moral laws are not universally held or agreed upon in many areas covered by law, especially in a more heterogeneous society. Hence these laws must be negotiated with regard to shared ideals (such as the prevention of harm) rather than imposed theocratically.

[McCulloch]

Some people are always going to break the law, but do we remove the law because of them? Of course not.

No, but we change the laws when we realize that a particular prohibition serves no positive social value. In California there is a law on the books that prohibits cleaning a car with used underwear. We shouldn't remove that law just because some people are going to break it. Right?

To me the question should revolve around how much harm would be done to society by removing the prohibition compared to the amount of harm due to the prohibition.