Homosexuality as a sin against both worldviews

[cholland]

Am I missing something, or is homosexuality not only an affront against most of the major religions, but also against natural selection? How does an evolutionist justify the insertion of a homosexual gene in the natural selection process, considering it is its enemy?

From my point of view, homosexuality is a sin not only according to the Christian Bible, but also against the evolutionary worldview. You EITHER hold one of the two and are inconsistent:
1. I'm a Christian, but decided to cherry pick the Bible and/or disobey it.
2. I'm an evolutionist, but decided somehow homosexuality is not an attack on the natural selection process.

OR you hold one of the two and are consistent:
1. I'm a Christian and homosexuality is an offense against God.
2. I'm an evolutionist and homosexuality is an offense against the natural selection process.

The only worldview I see that can justify homosexuality is nihilism. But of course, they can justify rape, murder, etc. as well.

[Haven]

I find it ironic that if homosexuality is caused by our genes, then 'coming out' is actually going to kill the homosexuals off. There wont be any closet homosexuals to pass the gay gene on.

You're assuming that the "gay gene(s)" are only passed on by gay individuals, which is false as Goat pointed out. Heterosexuals also possess these genes in recessive format, which ensures their survival within the next generation. Additionally, lesbian/gay people can become biological parents.

[Flail]

I find it ironic that if homosexuality is caused by our genes, then 'coming out' is actually going to kill the homosexuals off. There wont be any closet homosexuals to pass the gay gene on.

I don't understand you logic; care to elucidate? If 'coming out' will kill the homosexuals off as you suggest, and if such is your agenda, might I suggest you become an ardent supporter of and activist for gay rights.

[cholland]

If God hates homsexuals then why did He make them in the first place?

The most economical answer is that he wanted someone to hate, and he wanted his followers to have someone to hate too.

Am I alone in thinking the OP's projection of feelings of gay hate, plus the invocation of Nazism, and the invitation to people who accept evolutionary theory to gather round and hate gayness kind of a weird brew.

Agreed. Equating homosexuality with nihilism (the rejection of all moral principles) is reprehensible and appalling. There is a wonderful lesbian couple in our community who are the paragon of virtue; charitable, kind and dedicated to helping others. They volunteer constantly to causes for the needy. Both of them are widowed and are in their late 40's. I intend to tell them (since they have often dealt with such hatred here in the BibleBelt) that many of the Christians in this forum think that their love and committed partnership with one another is an abomination, an affront to God and mankind and the equivalent of the rejection of all moral principles. I will report their response here. How anyone could claim such beliefs while spouting adherence to Jesus teachings is beyond me, and serves to demonstrate that weird holy men can indeed turn a philosophy of love into one of ignorance and hate.

Mischaracterizing (word?) the argument will not win you points. Notice:

1. I did not say homosexuality = nihilism. I said the only worldview that does not see it as an affront to itself is nihilism. An evolutionist cannot consistently picket for both natural selection and gay rights.

2. This thread is NOT about Christians v. homosexuals. The whole "Christians hate gays and I'm going to go tell my neighbor and we're going to band together and talk about how they should love more cause that's what Jesus taught and they should be more tolerant cause tolerance = approval..." post is a little old. Let's talk about something new. mm? This is about evolutionists v. homosexuals:

3. Homosexuals can have morals along with atheists and anybody else. It's the morals you listed - helping others, charity, and homosexuality - that are an affront to the evolutionary process. Survival of the fittest, man! Survival of the fittest! Power, greed, murder, dominance, slavery. These are the things we need to strive after.

4. Jesus did not walk around spouting off feel good messages about love and care bears. He came to summon sinners to repentance and faith. This grievous error has led the President to justify his position on gay marriage. Historically with the stories about Jesus' and the Apostles' encounter with sinners, there could be nothing farther from the truth. He did not just sit back and say "ho, hum, I love you and your lifestyle is ok with me." Anybody who has read the Bible half asleep knows that.

"He said to them, This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things." Luke 24:44-48

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins. Matt. 1:21

GASP! murmur. Doesn't he know "sin" is a bad word? What does he mean "repent?" Repent from what? Doesn't he know I like my life? He's not the boss of me. He's not Lord of me. I run the show. I have rights and he can't take them from me. I'm an American. I'm an individual.

[Haven]

1. I did not say homosexuality = nihilism. I said the only worldview that does not see it as an affront to itself is nihilism. An evolutionist cannot consistently picket for both natural selection and gay rights.

I am a Christian atheist and a secular Humanist; that is, I hold to the worldviews of Christian atheism and secular Humanism. Both of these worldviews fully endorse gay rights and approve of LGBTQ individuals' rights to flourish as human beings.

Besides, "evolutionism" is not a worldview -- evolution is a scientific theory based on empirical evidence. It has no moral implications, no prescriptive norms, no commandments or sins, it is just a scientific theory.

Tell me, is William Lane Craig (anti-gay evangelical Christian philosopher) an "evolutionist?" Does he hold to the worldview of "evolutionism?" He accepts the theory of evolution as fact, but he is also an evangelical Christian and has made numerous (in my opinion) disgusting comments on LGBTQ individuals.

This is about evolutionists v. homosexuals:

There is no such thing as "evolutionists."

3. Homosexuals can have morals along with atheists and anybody else. It's the morals you listed - helping others, charity, and homosexuality - that are an affront to the evolutionary process. Survival of the fittest, man! Survival of the fittest! Power, greed, murder, dominance, slavery. These are the things we need to strive after.

Once again, evolution has no normative implications. You're confusing evolution with the 20th-century worldview of Social Darwinism.

For what it's worth, altruism and mutual respect help the human species survive, so they are evolutionary advantages. Homosexuality is either an evolutionary advantage or is neutral to the evolutionary process, for reasons others have mentioned.

4. Jesus did not walk around spouting off feel good messages about love and care bears. He came to summon sinners to repentance and faith.

Then why did he focus most of his "fire and brimstone" messages on the religious believers of his time, the self-righteous Pharisees and Sadducees, rather than on the so-called "sinners" of his day?

Jesus preached love, acceptance, and repentance, but he never mentioned homosexuality (divorce and adultery are different stories).

This grievous error has led the President to justify his position on gay marriage.

The president did not base his decision on the teachings of Jesus, but on the democratic principle of equal protection under the law. The United States is not a Christian theocracy, but a secular democratic republic founded on secular principles and values. "There exists a gulf of separation between church and state."

Historically with the stories about Jesus' and the Apostles' encounter with sinners, there could be nothing farther from the truth. He did not just sit back and say "ho, hum, I love you and your lifestyle is ok with me." Anybody who has read the Bible half asleep knows that.

"He said to them, This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things." Luke 24:44-48

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins. Matt. 1:21

GASP! murmur. Doesn't he know "sin" is a bad word? What does he mean "repent?" Repent from what? Doesn't he know I like my life? He's not the boss of me. He's not Lord of me. I run the show. I have rights and he can't take them from me. I'm an American. I'm an individual.

This is a strawman argument. Jesus focused his anti-sin messages on the supposedly righteous religious community, and focused his mercy on nonbelievers, skeptics, and others considered outcasts in 1st-century Jewish society.

Also, not all Christians consider homosexuality to be a sin.

[Jarte]

I am going to start off by saying it is my belief that homosexuality is no greater and no less than any other because all sins are equal. I know that we are not necessarily debating this but it an essential belief.

Haven wrote:

Then why did he focus most of his "fire and brimstone" messages on the religious believers of his time, the self-righteous Pharisees and Sadducees, rather than on the so-called "sinners" of his day?

Jesus preached love, acceptance, and repentance, but he never mentioned homosexuality (divorce and adultery are different stories).

Haven brings a great point to the table. Why as Christians are we so bent on such issues as gay marriage?

Well it comes down to right what Jesus preached not to do that being condemnation. If you can remember back to the old bible story with the adultoress about to be stoned by the pharisees. What was the words Jesus spoke to the crowd?

"Let he without sin cast the first stone."

We Christians are becoming the pharisees of modern day with countless rules and regulations on how to be a good Christian. Instead of following the example of Christ and giving glory to him daily. So Se should condemn judgement and the hatred the likes of the Westboro Baptists spew. Christians should be tolerant and beam with love for each other. These issues are not of old in the times of Paul's ministry in Greece and Rome such sins were more common place than today. I assure you Paul did not win souls by acting like the Pharisees but by acting like Christ. These acts are sins and should be treated as such but show the love of God not the hatred of Man.

To conclude it is by faith in God and then forgiveness that we are saved, bring sinners to the foot of the cross and once they understand the price Christ paid for them then they will be willing, by the power of God, to change thier ways and thier life. Never by the will of man, only by his will.

[spiritualrevolution]

Why is homosexuality a sin? And you cannot simply use the bible to make your claims, you have to provide a concrete example how homosexuality causes pain or suffering.

The bible is also FLAWED. That's right, "Satan" has infected your bible and you need to wake up.

If you really think about it, you'll find there is nothing sinful about homosexuality, in fact, it is beautiful. It shows that our love has gone beyond gender, and that much more meaningful.

[Jarte]

Why is homosexuality a sin? And you cannot simply use the bible to make your claims, you have to provide a concrete example how homosexuality causes pain or suffering.

The bible is also FLAWED. That's right, "Satan" has infected your bible and you need to wake up.

If you really think about it, you'll find there is nothing sinful about homosexuality, in fact, it is beautiful. It shows that our love has gone beyond gender, and that much more meaningful.

I believe this misunderstanding of why homosexuality is a sin stems from the general misunderstanding of what a sin is. Sin is anything and everything that is not like or of God so whether it is lying, homosexuality, the thought of lying, or the thought of lust(which is what homosexuality is) is a sin.

Homosexuality is a form of lust all lust is wrong and ungodly. Lust is wrong because it dehumanizes people into just a tool for self pleasure.

[Goat]

Why is homosexuality a sin? And you cannot simply use the bible to make your claims, you have to provide a concrete example how homosexuality causes pain or suffering.

The bible is also FLAWED. That's right, "Satan" has infected your bible and you need to wake up.

If you really think about it, you'll find there is nothing sinful about homosexuality, in fact, it is beautiful. It shows that our love has gone beyond gender, and that much more meaningful.

I believe this misunderstanding of why homosexuality is a sin stems from the general misunderstanding of what a sin is. Sin is anything and everything that is not like or of God so whether it is lying, homosexuality, the thought of lying, or the thought of lust(which is what homosexuality is) is a sin.

Homosexuality is a form of lust all lust is wrong and ungodly. Lust is wrong because it dehumanizes people into just a tool for self pleasure.

And other than a book written by man, how does anybody know what 'God' likes or dislikes?

How is homosexuality between two monogamous adults who love each other 'lust and ungodly'?

[cholland]

I believe this misunderstanding of why homosexuality is a sin stems from the general misunderstanding of what a sin is. Sin is anything and everything that is not like or of God so whether it is lying, homosexuality, the thought of lying, or the thought of lust(which is what homosexuality is) is a sin.

Homosexuality is a form of lust all lust is wrong and ungodly. Lust is wrong because it dehumanizes people into just a tool for self pleasure.

And other than a book written by man, how does anybody know what 'God' likes or dislikes?

How is homosexuality between two monogamous adults who love each other 'lust and ungodly'?

If there were ever two questions that set up anybody who responds to play a little game of "who's on first", Goat has provided them.

Jarte: Homosexuality is ungodly.
Goat: Why is it ungodly?
Jarte: It is unlike God.
Goat: Why is it unlike God?
Jarte: It's ungodly.
repeat til death

[cholland]

And other than a book written by man, how does anybody know what 'God' likes or dislikes?

Other than Aristotle's Laws of Thought, show they are true.