Homosexuality as a sin against both worldviews

[cholland]

Am I missing something, or is homosexuality not only an affront against most of the major religions, but also against natural selection? How does an evolutionist justify the insertion of a homosexual gene in the natural selection process, considering it is its enemy?

From my point of view, homosexuality is a sin not only according to the Christian Bible, but also against the evolutionary worldview. You EITHER hold one of the two and are inconsistent:
1. I'm a Christian, but decided to cherry pick the Bible and/or disobey it.
2. I'm an evolutionist, but decided somehow homosexuality is not an attack on the natural selection process.

OR you hold one of the two and are consistent:
1. I'm a Christian and homosexuality is an offense against God.
2. I'm an evolutionist and homosexuality is an offense against the natural selection process.

The only worldview I see that can justify homosexuality is nihilism. But of course, they can justify rape, murder, etc. as well.

[Jarte]

Why is homosexuality a sin? And you cannot simply use the bible to make your claims, you have to provide a concrete example how homosexuality causes pain or suffering.

The bible is also FLAWED. That's right, "Satan" has infected your bible and you need to wake up.

If you really think about it, you'll find there is nothing sinful about homosexuality, in fact, it is beautiful. It shows that our love has gone beyond gender, and that much more meaningful.

I believe this misunderstanding of why homosexuality is a sin stems from the general misunderstanding of what a sin is. Sin is anything and everything that is not like or of God so whether it is lying, homosexuality, the thought of lying, or the thought of lust(which is what homosexuality is) is a sin.

Homosexuality is a form of lust all lust is wrong and ungodly. Lust is wrong because it dehumanizes people into just a tool for self pleasure.

And other than a book written by man, how does anybody know what 'God' likes or dislikes?

How is homosexuality between two monogamous adults who love each other 'lust and ungodly'?

Well No, no one knows the will of God beyond the bible or threw the Holy Spirit but, God does love us and wants us to follow him and not directly disobey his will. One can love a person of the same gender and not be a homosexual.

Love itself is not necessarily a sin but the object that love is directed to is. It is the same reason I shouldn't worship and love my PlayStation 3 but I believe we all can agree my PlayStation 3 isn't a God.

But in the end lust always corrupts, it is the same reason pornography defiles a heterosexual male or female. It is lust, lust is an unhealthy tendency that dehumanizes sex and the purpose of relationships.

[Flail]

Why is homosexuality a sin? And you cannot simply use the bible to make your claims, you have to provide a concrete example how homosexuality causes pain or suffering.

The bible is also FLAWED. That's right, "Satan" has infected your bible and you need to wake up.

If you really think about it, you'll find there is nothing sinful about homosexuality, in fact, it is beautiful. It shows that our love has gone beyond gender, and that much more meaningful.

I believe this misunderstanding of why homosexuality is a sin stems from the general misunderstanding of what a sin is. Sin is anything and everything that is not like or of God so whether it is lying, homosexuality, the thought of lying, or the thought of lust(which is what homosexuality is) is a sin.

Homosexuality is a form of lust all lust is wrong and ungodly. Lust is wrong because it dehumanizes people into just a tool for self pleasure.

And other than a book written by man, how does anybody know what 'God' likes or dislikes?

How is homosexuality between two monogamous adults who love each other 'lust and ungodly'?

Well No, no one knows the will of God beyond the bible or threw the Holy Spirit but, God does love us and wants us to follow him and not directly disobey his will. One can love a person of the same gender and not be a homosexual.

Love itself is not necessarily a sin but the object that love is directed to is. It is the same reason I shouldn't worship and love my PlayStation 3 but I believe we all can agree my PlayStation 3 isn't a God.

But in the end lust always corrupts, it is the same reason pornography defiles a heterosexual male or female. It is lust, lust is an unhealthy tendency that dehumanizes sex and the purpose of relationships.

Are all private, loving sexual relations between consenting adult homosexuals in a committed and monogamous relationship lust in your view? An Abomination? Unhealthy? Who is the victim in such circumstances?

[Goat]

I believe this misunderstanding of why homosexuality is a sin stems from the general misunderstanding of what a sin is. Sin is anything and everything that is not like or of God so whether it is lying, homosexuality, the thought of lying, or the thought of lust(which is what homosexuality is) is a sin.

Homosexuality is a form of lust all lust is wrong and ungodly. Lust is wrong because it dehumanizes people into just a tool for self pleasure.

And other than a book written by man, how does anybody know what 'God' likes or dislikes?

How is homosexuality between two monogamous adults who love each other 'lust and ungodly'?

If there were ever two questions that set up anybody who responds to play a little game of "who's on first", Goat has provided them.

Jarte: Homosexuality is ungodly.
Goat: Why is it ungodly?
Jarte: It is unlike God.
Goat: Why is it unlike God?
Jarte: It's ungodly.
repeat til death

Can you show why?? Somehow, I don't think you can show ANYTHING about God.

[Autodidact]

Why is homosexuality a sin? And you cannot simply use the bible to make your claims, you have to provide a concrete example how homosexuality causes pain or suffering.

The bible is also FLAWED. That's right, "Satan" has infected your bible and you need to wake up.

If you really think about it, you'll find there is nothing sinful about homosexuality, in fact, it is beautiful. It shows that our love has gone beyond gender, and that much more meaningful.

I believe this misunderstanding of why homosexuality is a sin stems from the general misunderstanding of what a sin is. Sin is anything and everything that is not like or of God so whether it is lying, homosexuality, the thought of lying, or the thought of lust(which is what homosexuality is) is a sin.

Homosexuality is a form of lust all lust is wrong and ungodly. Lust is wrong because it dehumanizes people into just a tool for self pleasure.

So is making prejudiced comments about groups of people, like you are doing here. Homosexuality is exactly parallel to heterosexuality, and exactly as lustful or loving as heterosexuality.

[Autodidact]

Why is homosexuality a sin? And you cannot simply use the bible to make your claims, you have to provide a concrete example how homosexuality causes pain or suffering.

The bible is also FLAWED. That's right, "Satan" has infected your bible and you need to wake up.

If you really think about it, you'll find there is nothing sinful about homosexuality, in fact, it is beautiful. It shows that our love has gone beyond gender, and that much more meaningful.

I believe this misunderstanding of why homosexuality is a sin stems from the general misunderstanding of what a sin is. Sin is anything and everything that is not like or of God so whether it is lying, homosexuality, the thought of lying, or the thought of lust(which is what homosexuality is) is a sin.

Homosexuality is a form of lust all lust is wrong and ungodly. Lust is wrong because it dehumanizes people into just a tool for self pleasure.

And other than a book written by man, how does anybody know what 'God' likes or dislikes?

How is homosexuality between two monogamous adults who love each other 'lust and ungodly'?

Well No, no one knows the will of God beyond the bible or threw the Holy Spirit but, God does love us and wants us to follow him and not directly disobey his will. One can love a person of the same gender and not be a homosexual.

Love itself is not necessarily a sin but the object that love is directed to is. It is the same reason I shouldn't worship and love my PlayStation 3 but I believe we all can agree my PlayStation 3 isn't a God.

But in the end lust always corrupts, it is the same reason pornography defiles a heterosexual male or female. It is lust, lust is an unhealthy tendency that dehumanizes sex and the purpose of relationships.

OK, you believe that lust is bad. Now show that love toward someone of the same sex is more lustful than love toward someone of a different sex.

[His Name Is John]

I find it ironic that if homosexuality is caused by our genes, then 'coming out' is actually going to kill the homosexuals off. There wont be any closet homosexuals to pass the gay gene on.

Except, of course, the mothers of gay men are much more fertile than normal.. and that key will keep it happening.

That seems to be why that the percentage of homosexuals have pretty much stayed the same through history, despite culture.

Maybe, but then you would have to question what exactly is the gay gene. How can a straight mother have it? If she doesn't then how does she pass it onto her children?

In any case, I think science have a lot of evidence that it isn't purely genetic.

[Quath]

It seems that the basic question is focused on trying to understand how homosexuality could come from evolution. There are many studies that do look at some of this stuff. But I will try to sum what I have seen quickly.

One possibility is that homosexuality could be a mechanism to slow down or speed up humanity's reproduction rate. Back in hunter gather times, humans had to stay mobile. If there were too many infants, they may have to be killed because a mother may could only care for one or two at a time and stay mobile. Homosexuality may be advantageous for the group to reduce birth rate or to have extra adults help care for their relatives.

Another possibility is that it has been small enough not to make a big difference natural selection. This comes more from twin studies. There are correlations in genetics, but no gay gene. However, the genes that may correlate with homosexuality may give a big enough advantage that occasional homosexuality is not a big loss for the genes. This is similar to sickle cell anemia. If someone lives in a malaria area and has one of these genes, you will probably live. If you have 0 or 2 genes, you will have a great chance of death. So a 50% survival rate can be good enough for evolution to work with. So the roughly 5% of homosexuality doesn't look too bad.

Another possibility is that homosexuality is currently treated as boolean (yes or no). However, it may be that we should treat everyone as bisexual on some scale (like from 0 to 100). Bisexuality may have been similar to how early humans deal with each other as a tribe. See the Bonobo chimps as an example of this type of tribe.

Another possibility is similar to the first. However, instead of selecting homosexuality to control population growth, homosexuality could help with raising children. For example, one question is why humans have grandparents. After all, they don't reproduce anymore. They tend to be older and weaker. Yet they help out with the grandchildren and free up time for parents and help spread wisdom. Likewise homosexuality could increase the number of adults raising children. So having homosexuality related genes in your family could mean that children get more attention, which could increase their survival.

There are other possibilities, but this is what I could come up with off the top of my head.

[Goat]

I find it ironic that if homosexuality is caused by our genes, then 'coming out' is actually going to kill the homosexuals off. There wont be any closet homosexuals to pass the gay gene on.

Except, of course, the mothers of gay men are much more fertile than normal.. and that key will keep it happening.

That seems to be why that the percentage of homosexuals have pretty much stayed the same through history, despite culture.

Maybe, but then you would have to question what exactly is the gay gene. How can a straight mother have it? If she doesn't then how does she pass it onto her children?

In any case, I think science have a lot of evidence that it isn't purely genetic.

Well, it seems to be linked to fertility in straight mothers.. and as was pointed out, it is the 3rd and later sons that tend to be homosexual more than the first and second sons. It could bery well be after a certain number of pregnancies, the hormonal balance when it comes to estrogen and brain development is a bit 'off'.

So, it could be environmental,.. in the womb.

It is known that certain chemicals can effect sexuality and sexual development in other animals.... so why not in humans too ?

[Jarte]

Why is homosexuality a sin? And you cannot simply use the bible to make your claims, you have to provide a concrete example how homosexuality causes pain or suffering.

The bible is also FLAWED. That's right, "Satan" has infected your bible and you need to wake up.

If you really think about it, you'll find there is nothing sinful about homosexuality, in fact, it is beautiful. It shows that our love has gone beyond gender, and that much more meaningful.

I believe this misunderstanding of why homosexuality is a sin stems from the general misunderstanding of what a sin is. Sin is anything and everything that is not like or of God so whether it is lying, homosexuality, the thought of lying, or the thought of lust(which is what homosexuality is) is a sin.

Homosexuality is a form of lust all lust is wrong and ungodly. Lust is wrong because it dehumanizes people into just a tool for self pleasure.

And other than a book written by man, how does anybody know what 'God' likes or dislikes?

How is homosexuality between two monogamous adults who love each other 'lust and ungodly'?

Well No, no one knows the will of God beyond the bible or threw the Holy Spirit but, God does love us and wants us to follow him and not directly disobey his will. One can love a person of the same gender and not be a homosexual.

Love itself is not necessarily a sin but the object that love is directed to is. It is the same reason I shouldn't worship and love my PlayStation 3 but I believe we all can agree my PlayStation 3 isn't a God.

But in the end lust always corrupts, it is the same reason pornography defiles a heterosexual male or female. It is lust, lust is an unhealthy tendency that dehumanizes sex and the purpose of relationships.

OK, you believe that lust is bad. Now show that love toward someone of the same sex is more lustful than love toward someone of a different sex.

I am not saying any form of lust greater than another because it isn't but I was simply trying to explain that one reason homosexuality is the same problem that plagues heterosexuals that being lust.

Love can be shown in ways that are not sexual. For as a Christian I am commanded to love my neighbor that doesn't mean to hold sexual lust for the person I love. The word love has been corrupted by popular culture to mean something that it is not. Love should mean having a deep personal feeling of affection(in an non-lustful manner).

[Jarte]

Why is homosexuality a sin? And you cannot simply use the bible to make your claims, you have to provide a concrete example how homosexuality causes pain or suffering.

The bible is also FLAWED. That's right, "Satan" has infected your bible and you need to wake up.

If you really think about it, you'll find there is nothing sinful about homosexuality, in fact, it is beautiful. It shows that our love has gone beyond gender, and that much more meaningful.

I believe this misunderstanding of why homosexuality is a sin stems from the general misunderstanding of what a sin is. Sin is anything and everything that is not like or of God so whether it is lying, homosexuality, the thought of lying, or the thought of lust(which is what homosexuality is) is a sin.

Homosexuality is a form of lust all lust is wrong and ungodly. Lust is wrong because it dehumanizes people into just a tool for self pleasure.

And other than a book written by man, how does anybody know what 'God' likes or dislikes?

How is homosexuality between two monogamous adults who love each other 'lust and ungodly'?

Well No, no one knows the will of God beyond the bible or threw the Holy Spirit but, God does love us and wants us to follow him and not directly disobey his will. One can love a person of the same gender and not be a homosexual.

Love itself is not necessarily a sin but the object that love is directed to is. It is the same reason I shouldn't worship and love my PlayStation 3 but I believe we all can agree my PlayStation 3 isn't a God.

But in the end lust always corrupts, it is the same reason pornography defiles a heterosexual male or female. It is lust, lust is an unhealthy tendency that dehumanizes sex and the purpose of relationships.

Are all private, loving sexual relations between consenting adult homosexuals in a committed and monogamous relationship lust in your view? An Abomination? Unhealthy? Who is the victim in such circumstances?

No not based on lust but such an act is not the purpose God made us for. I was arguing lust is a detractor to such a circumstance because sex is lustful expression and the whole idea of homosexuality is in the end to act upon that lust in a sexual manner. A loving relationship between men can happen without its purpose whether directly or indirectly sexual.

Sex was made for one man and one women married in a healthy relation to act upon thier love for one another by creating another human being. But like all things of man we corrupted a beautiful miracle of God into a sin of lust for often times the physical characteristics of another.

In the end though heterosexual sex outside of marriage and homosexual sex are of equal cosequence as is all other sins. My main point is not to condem those who are homosexual but urge them to seek God because God loves you more than any other being could possibly compare too. I am as much a sinner if not more of a sinner than any other fellow human being whether gay or straight. But it is by the grace God offered me and wishes to offer you that such shortfallings are overcome. If I somehow offend anyone I am sincerely sorry and will offer a personal apology upon request all I wish to do is demonstrate the love God has for you threw me.