What exactly is the christian fear of gay marriage?

[connermt]

This thread is meant for clarification purposes:
As a christian, what do you fear the legalization of gay marriage will do to the country, your faith and yourself personally?
Please provide examples of past issues where something was made legal and created a negative issue with your country, faith and/or yourself.

Of course there are extremes on each side, but the majority of people who are pro-legal gay marriage don't seem to much care what a church says, so long as their legal rights are adhered to just like eveyone else's.

I've looked at many responses to both sides and can honestly not see, other than hate or "being gay is gross", any legitimate reasons that would want one to say "gay people who care about each other and live in a relationship shouldn't have the say legal rights as straight people.

Any elightenment on the subject would be appreciated.

[Rkrause]

In my church I won't have to worry about gay marriages but concerning other issues I have talked to the Elders and Pastor to get "back on track" with the Biblical viewpoints. I visited one church who preached "gay rights" and I also approached her (a deacon) about her sermon and she is no longer a deacon or preaching. (I didn't get her fired but my comfortation may have contributed a small part)

I wish the government would just use the term "civil union" instead of "marriage" it would stop a lot of these problems and debates and keep all churches out of this mess.[/quote]

This would be your belief, being legally forced on everyone, even if they don't agree with it. That's wrong as the church is not a governing body.
Techinically, the church should get rid of the term "marriage" (at least the legal aspect of it) as the church doesn't hold the key to legal marriage for anyone (even if they don't want to admit it).
The real problem is belief vs. legality. A church marriage has no legal bearing on a couple's relationship. The church needs to understand, and accept, that fact.
So long as the gov't doesn't force a church to wed gay couples (not likely), the church can pout all it wants, but they have no legal foundation to justify their POV.
One can believe anything they want, with or without facts to justify it. That's the whole problem here IMO.[/quote]


Seperating church and state I would agree with that. I will just leave it at that....

[Mr. LongView]

Not that I am a christian, but I'd imagine that we have some things in common.

Whats in a word? (Marriage)

Dogs?
Landmarks?

Can you marry a color?

How about marrying a twelve year old? (Like in the days of yore?)

Just because we live longer, why shouldn't pedophiliac marriage be accepted, it seemed to work in the past? (I am against it, but history was okay with the idea?)

Polygamy?

What about a three way?

Guy, girl and a dog?

Two guys and a statue?

A homosexual, one bi, and a straight?

At some point, in my narrow little mind, there should be a definition to marriage even if some one gets offended.

Not that I am against gay marriage.
I'm just not sure where to draw the line.
In this politically correct world I guess I will only piss off a statue.

[His Name Is John]

I don't fear gay marriage, I oppose it.

I don't fear prostitution, I oppose it.

I don't fear the use of illegal drugs, I oppose it.

I don't fear slavery, I oppose it.

The link you have between opposition and fear is not true. We do not oppose things simply because we fear it. There is often a link between fear and opposition (people don't like things that might make us scared) but they can exist without one another.

I don't oppose just war, but I do fear it.

I don't oppose the government, but I do fear it.

I don't oppose God, but I do fear Him.

I guess you could say I oppose gay marriage because I am scared of what that will represent. This is partially true, but what it respresents is a society in which homosexuality is seen as just as normal as a heterosexual relationship. I don't feel any fear towards that (some Christians would say I should), I do however oppose it.

I don't buy that clever word play. You oppose it because it's not "normal"?

I oppose it because:

1. It is against the Bible
2. It is against Natural Law Theory
3. It is against the teaching of the Church

I do not oppose it because I fear homosexuality or homosexual marriage.

Some could right say that opposing something comes from fear itself.

I think my previous post showed this isn't the case.

It's not "normal" to use a computer in 1980, but people did.
It's not "normal" to deep fry a turkey, but people do.
The point is if you oppose something that's not "normal", then logically, you must oppose a lot of things that you likely take part in that's not "normal".

Let me know when those things go against:

1. It is against the Bible
2. It is against Natural Law Theory
3. It is against the teaching of the Church

Until then, my reasons for opposing homosexuality has no connection to using computers. Straw man much?

Thus, I can't believe that your opposition comes from anything other than fear. What, exactly your fear, is up to you to decide.

But it isn't for me to decide that it isn't actually fear?

Beyond that, what you oppose due to it's lack of normality, may actually, become quite normal in the future. Would you then oppose it? Possibly, if you fear it.

Or possibly if the reason for opposing it was that it isn't normal. That doesn't happen to be one of my reasons, please don't say that it is. Also, if I can just make it clear again, I do not fear gay marriage, I oppose it. There is a difference, I would be grateful if you realized that.

[connermt]

I don't fear gay marriage, I oppose it.

I don't fear prostitution, I oppose it.

I don't fear the use of illegal drugs, I oppose it.

I don't fear slavery, I oppose it.

The link you have between opposition and fear is not true. We do not oppose things simply because we fear it. There is often a link between fear and opposition (people don't like things that might make us scared) but they can exist without one another.

I don't oppose just war, but I do fear it.

I don't oppose the government, but I do fear it.

I don't oppose God, but I do fear Him.

I guess you could say I oppose gay marriage because I am scared of what that will represent. This is partially true, but what it respresents is a society in which homosexuality is seen as just as normal as a heterosexual relationship. I don't feel any fear towards that (some Christians would say I should), I do however oppose it.

I don't buy that clever word play. You oppose it because it's not "normal"?

I oppose it because:

1. It is against the Bible
2. It is against Natural Law Theory
3. It is against the teaching of the Church

I do not oppose it because I fear homosexuality or homosexual marriage.

Some could right say that opposing something comes from fear itself.

I think my previous post showed this isn't the case.

It's not "normal" to use a computer in 1980, but people did.
It's not "normal" to deep fry a turkey, but people do.
The point is if you oppose something that's not "normal", then logically, you must oppose a lot of things that you likely take part in that's not "normal".

Let me know when those things go against:

1. It is against the Bible
2. It is against Natural Law Theory
3. It is against the teaching of the Church

Until then, my reasons for opposing homosexuality has no connection to using computers. Straw man much?

Thus, I can't believe that your opposition comes from anything other than fear. What, exactly your fear, is up to you to decide.

But it isn't for me to decide that it isn't actually fear?

Beyond that, what you oppose due to it's lack of normality, may actually, become quite normal in the future. Would you then oppose it? Possibly, if you fear it.

Or possibly if the reason for opposing it was that it isn't normal. That doesn't happen to be one of my reasons, please don't say that it is. Also, if I can just make it clear again, I do not fear gay marriage, I oppose it. There is a difference, I would be grateful if you realized that.

So then, based on the bible, you fear it because god tells you to via the bible.

[dianaiad]

This thread is meant for clarification purposes:
As a christian, what do you fear the legalization of gay marriage will do to the country, your faith and yourself personally?
Please provide examples of past issues where something was made legal and created a negative issue with your country, faith and/or yourself.

Let's turn this around. The 'fear' of gay marriage isn't a fear of what will be made legal. It's a fear, mostly, of what will be made ILLEGAL. Someone brought up the Catholic Charities in Illinois---and even though I have a problem with the government forcing the Catholics to go against their faith, those charities were taking public funds (some of which come from the very people they didn't want to serve), so calling 'em on it was right.

My problem is when things...religious viewpoints and doctrines...are made ILLEGAL because of some changing aspect of culture or the law. In other words, it's not that anybody is afraid of gay marriage being made legal; the fear is of laws being passed that prohibit the free exercise of their faith...within their own faith.

As to your bolded question regarding an example of a time when that has happened?

You are kidding, right? Here. Does this strike a memory chord for you?



Or this?



Or how about this?




Or my personal favorite....

This?



This is a DIRECT result of polygamy being illegal. Of course, the raid on the FLDS camp wasn't made because of polygamy...oh, no. It was made because some crank living in another state made a fraudulent phone call pretending to be a girl IN that camp who was about to be married against her will. So the Texas CPS pulled out snipers, guard dogs, tanks, all the bells and whistles.....to handle these people:



Of course, the caller wasn't found in the camp. Not exactly a surprise, considering that the Texas CPS knew who she was before they went IN.

THAT'S what happens when the government defines marriage and decides that a religion has no right to it's own beliefs about the matter.

So.....I suggest that you dial back the mockery here. There is a fear--and there is a very real basis FOR it.

So why, rather than wonder why people who believe differently than you do can't simply see it your way, and figure out ways to make us (force us...send men in flak jackets after us, or lawsuits, whatever) see it your way, don't you understand and appreciate the very real problem we have, and work WITH us to solve it so that everybody wins?

What is so HARD about that? You want us to see YOUR side, but don't see the hypocrisy in forcing us, by law, to see yours.

[Dantalion]

This thread is meant for clarification purposes:
As a christian, what do you fear the legalization of gay marriage will do to the country, your faith and yourself personally?
Please provide examples of past issues where something was made legal and created a negative issue with your country, faith and/or yourself.

Let's turn this around. The 'fear' of gay marriage isn't a fear of what will be made legal. It's a fear, mostly, of what will be made ILLEGAL. Someone brought up the Catholic Charities in Illinois---and even though I have a problem with the government forcing the Catholics to go against their faith, those charities were taking public funds (some of which come from the very people they didn't want to serve), so calling 'em on it was right.

My problem is when things...religious viewpoints and doctrines...are made ILLEGAL because of some changing aspect of culture or the law. In other words, it's not that anybody is afraid of gay marriage being made legal; the fear is of laws being passed that prohibit the free exercise of their faith...within their own faith.

As to your bolded question regarding an example of a time when that has happened?

You are kidding, right? Here. Does this strike a memory chord for you?



Or this?



Or how about this?




Or my personal favorite....

This?



This is a DIRECT result of polygamy being illegal. Of course, the raid on the FLDS camp wasn't made because of polygamy...oh, no. It was made because some crank living in another state made a fraudulent phone call pretending to be a girl IN that camp who was about to be married against her will. So the Texas CPS pulled out snipers, guard dogs, tanks, all the bells and whistles.....to handle these people:



Of course, the caller wasn't found in the camp. Not exactly a surprise, considering that the Texas CPS knew who she was before they went IN.

THAT'S what happens when the government defines marriage and decides that a religion has no right to it's own beliefs about the matter.

So.....I suggest that you dial back the mockery here. There is a fear--and there is a very real basis FOR it.

So why, rather than wonder why people who believe differently than you do can't simply see it your way, and figure out ways to make us (force us...send men in flak jackets after us, or lawsuits, whatever) see it your way, don't you understand and appreciate the very real problem we have, and work WITH us to solve it so that everybody wins?

What is so HARD about that? You want us to see YOUR side, but don't see the hypocrisy in forcing us, by law, to see yours.

what does 'polygamy is illegal, so stop excercising polygamy' have to do with 'gay marriage can't be legal, because....' ?

so what you're saying is, I'm against gay marriage, because I fear one day it will become illegal to be against gay marriage ?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 25:

I hadda hop back up here for a bit 'cause I need it known I'm of the firm conviction Miss dianaiad, though among 'em, ought'n be saddled with the sins some of 'em done got into.

...
My problem is when things...religious viewpoints and doctrines...are made ILLEGAL because of some changing aspect of culture or the law.

Do you dare propose culture should not, must not, change? For y'all scoring at home, I just did a sortofa argument from incredulity, and if you ain't some of it yourself 'bout now, we've lost the whole dang thing.

As a sixties child of them 70s jams, I report that sittin' here stuck in 'em ain't bad, but they's less and less of us as the sun sets. We who remain are a proud bunch, but danged if we ain't thinnin' out a bit good.

A culture locked in the past is doomed to stay there.

In other words, it's not that anybody is afraid of gay marriage being made legal; the fear is of laws being passed that prohibit the free exercise of their faith...within their own faith.

Yeah, let's get to that here in a bit...

As to your bolded question regarding an example of a time when that has happened?

You are kidding, right? Here. Does this strike a memory chord for you?

Here I gotta skip a bit of it 'cause the picture in question is the one I wanna get at...

I note the header on the pdf I'm fixing to link to says this deal's open to revision, but here we go...

State of Utah v. Warren Steed Jeffs

Note the www is utcourts dot gov. Unless the ruskies or them chinesians have penetrated deep into the bowels of our government, and I'm sorry I said that, surely that's a reliable url.

But, from all that...

Eliss Wall was raised...FLDS...exposed to the teachings of Warren Jeffs...

Then go on and read some more after that, just as much as you can get through.

No, go back and read a bigger bunch of that background.

Now, hop on up there back to the first bit...

My italics...

...Warren Jeffs was convicted of two counts of rape as an accomplice...compelled marriage of 14 year old...to her 19 year old first cousin...

Let's note there's a bunch more getting said there, but c'mon, this is Utah, where a jury of Utahonians said they wasn't proud about him.

I contend that in this case, if it alone, don't that beat all.

Surely rational people know that not all members of a group are gonna be proud about their leadership. Not all members of a group should be looked on in shame 'cause some others of 'em did what some of us do.


But c'mon.


Are we to chalk this incident up to "danged if the man didn't get him another'n and y'all leave ol' Jeffs there alone", or are we to ponder about the damage we'd do if someone did this our daughter?

In my heart I know Miss dianaiad to be a good person, 'cause she displays her grace and girl there everywhere she goes, and I know in my heart she won't condone what we just read through. But at some point, we, as rational and reasonable, peace loving as we can be and that's what we're trying to do hippy human beings, must not accept the coercive, forced marriage of any of our youngn's.

So, I contend that a culture, a religion, an atheistic deal there, and if some of them agnostics don't hush, or a "belief system", a "worldview", or any of all of that gets upset 'cause one of 'em abused a position of authority in order to abuse someone, that deal there is to be looked at with jaw to the floor, eyes bugged out, and scratching at the top of one's head.

And when asked why you're so incredulous, you get more of it!

[99percentatheism]

connermtIt appears you're against the (potential) legalization of a group of people's rights (much like people were throughout history ie slavery, women's rights, blacks rights, etc) because what elected people decided to do?

Comparing the mental thoughts to act out anal and oral sex on a person of the same gender, is a far cy from being a slave or born a Negroe, Asian or some other genetic skin tone. A homosexual can engage in homosexuality the very day the are free to vote, walk through town, or go eat in any restaurant they want to.

Clever but makes little sense. Your moral obligation is to yourself, not others.

That's completely wrong. Morality in true definition is how your actions affect others.

If you live a moral life, you have nothing to fear.

Obvioulsy not. Your own premise here disproves your own position.

We CAN have a live & let live standard.

Not when sex acts are considered the same as gender or race.

Did you take up a protest?

You can't. The gay organizations take a your name down and protest your free speech and freedom of association rights.

Did you write to your state representatives about your discontent?

I have on many occassions.

Did you research why the catholic group was closed (as I find it hard to believe they would say "this or that" to an organization that's not taking state funds to operate)?

State funds are gathered FROM people that oppose gay pride. And gathered from the majority. What you are stating is that goverment MUST promote homosexuality.

Did you donate time and/or money to the non-catholic organizations to help off-set this new work load?

"Let the dead bury the dead," Jesus said. Let the goverment of the people and by the people go broke persecuting the Catholics.

Did you work to allow gay parents to adopt?

That is a violation of the first amendment to require Christians to support homosexuals adopting other peopel's children.

Are you working to help eliminate the bigotry between gays and/or religious institutions?

Seperation of Church and State right? LGBT pride goals will always be bigoted against Christians.

Did you volunteer to work to help correct this "injustice" in any way?

Only to help Christians survive and endure this new style persecution from the gay agenda being implemented "by the state."

Or did you use this to solidify your POV?

Watching the Bible's warnings coming to stark reality solidifies the POV of the voices in the New Testament.

Like the explosion of promiscuity, STD's, abortion as birth control, porn, unwed couples, fatherless children filling our penal and mentla health institutions, and the demise of the nuclear family as a result of feminism, the future is even darker for our children as gay pride takes effect, as further immoral behaviors are unleashed in our society.

From bad, to very bad, to worse.

[dianaiad]

what does 'polygamy is illegal, so stop excercising polygamy' have to do with 'gay marriage can't be legal, because....' ?

so what you're saying is, I'm against gay marriage, because I fear one day it will become illegal to be against gay marriage ?

By George, I think he's got it!

Look, I"m not a polygamist. In fact, the FLDS has been a PR thorn in the side of my faith for close to a century. I'm not a Catholic; I disagree with a great deal of Catholic doctrine.............

But THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO BELIEVE, and exercise those beliefs, freely. That's in the constitution. Neither you nor I have the right to make them believe, and behave, differently because WE think they are off base and wrong.

Now the folks in the FLDS compound weren't out to make everybody else be polygamists; shoot, not everybody IN the compound was polygamist; the monogamist families were separated and the children put in foster care too. The entire point here was that the folks OUTSIDE that compound decided that they had the right to force the folks INSIDE toe the line set by the government--within their own belief systems, their own homes, their own places of worship--and if they didn't, the government went in and kidnapped the kids, put the women and children on Baptist buses, and pretty much destroyed a few people---and why?

Because the government didn't like the way the FLDS was practicing their religion in their own place.

BTW, though this is going through the courts, the Texas CPS has been rather thoroughly lambasted by judge after court after judge--but it still keeps going after the FLDS families.

It's happening. It's real. PAY ATTENTION.

It doesn't matter whether you like the FLDS doctrine and culture. It doesn't matter whether I do. THEY do--and that's supposed to be what counts.

[dianaiad]

Here I gotta skip a bit of it 'cause the picture in question is the one I wanna get at...

I note the header on the pdf I'm fixing to link to says this deal's open to revision, but here we go...

State of Utah v. Warren Steed Jeffs

Note the www is utcourts dot gov. Unless the ruskies or them chinesians have penetrated deep into the bowels of our government, and I'm sorry I said that, surely that's a reliable url.

You mean...the court case that overturned Jeff's previous conviction (that had him, BTW, OUT OF THE COMPOUND at the time of the raid) resulting in him getting sent to Texas?

Hey, nobody is defending Jeffs here. The problem is, the folks in the compound weren't Jeffs.

Here's what the ACLU had to say about this raid:

The ACLU maintains that the raid was prompted by a single, unsubstantiated allegation of abuse, and they allege that all children at the ranch were believed at risk solely because of exposure to FLDS beliefs regarding underage marriage. But, the ACLU contends, "exposure to a religion's beliefs, however unorthodox, is not itself abuse and may not constitutionally be labeled abuse." The ACLU pointed out that parents were separated from their children without individual hearings and without particularized evidence of abuse, and that DNA testing was ordered without evidence that parentage was in dispute. Such actions, the ACLU asserts, "should not be indiscriminately targeted against a group as a whole – particularly when the group is perceived as being different or unusual."


Indeed, the courts agreed with the ACLU. Are you honestly going to argue that the people Texas called the VICTIMS of Jeffs deserved what Texas did to them?

Believe me, Texas screwed up here, big time....and the Texas CPS has been scrambling to cover it's collective butts since the raid.

Warren Jeffs had been convicted and was in prison at the time of this raid, m'friend. In other words, he wasn't THERE....and neither he nor his nearest cohorts were present at the FLDS ranch, and hadn't been for quite awhile. That picture was of the Baptist buses carting the women and children taken in the FLDS raid, being escorted by a very heavy police guard in a caravan.

I was looking for that specific picture, as it was one I used in a thesis I wrote about the FLDS raid four years ago, and for some dumb reason, couldn't find anywhere else last night. So forgive me for the website; I was going specifically for the photo.

Surely rational people know that not all members of a group are gonna be proud about their leadership. Not all members of a group should be looked on in shame 'cause some others of 'em did what some of us do.

Indeed...but Texas went in and destroyed 'em anyway.

But c'mon.

Indeed, 'c'mon.' the FACT is that, when everything fell out, the incident of child abuse within that combound was less than 10% of that found in the foster care that the state put the kids in. The amount of sexual abuse was less than 5% of the state statistics.....but hey, that doesn't matter. Warren Jeffs was in jail--now let's get the people Jeffs victimized and REALLY show 'em that they have to do things our way.

Are we to chalk this incident up to "danged if the man didn't get him another'n and y'all leave ol' Jeffs there alone", or are we to ponder about the damage we'd do if someone did this our daughter?

(waving hand, yet again) Jeffs WAS IN JAIL AT THE TIME OF THE RAID. In fact, none of the men who were later charged with, or convicted of, offenses were there at the time of the raid.

Now what?

In my heart I know Miss dianaiad to be a good person, 'cause she displays her grace and girl there everywhere she goes, and I know in my heart she won't condone what we just read through. But at some point, we, as rational and reasonable, peace loving as we can be and that's what we're trying to do hippy human beings, must not accept the coercive, forced marriage of any of our youngn's.

As opposed to the 90% more likely that those same girls will be pregnant out of wedlock in the foster care system the state put 'em in? 100 times more likely to be raped?

No, I don't agree with Jeffs. I think that the FLDS are W.R.O.N.G.

But that's not the point, is it? The point is, nobody in the FLDS compound at the time of the raid was raping anybody, hurting anybody, or having sex with underaged women. In fact, as it turns out, the 'underaged mothers' turned out to be, like...27 or so, and at least one 'under aged mother' had never been pregnant. The TExas CPS was padding the stats to cover their behinds---and as it turned out, the court caught 'em doing it. The COURTS told the CPS to send the kids home....and the CPS refused.

The CPS said that the children weren't being educated (they were--homeschooled and well ahead of their grades, most of 'em) .............and then refused to let them go to school or continue homeschooling. The CPS claimed that they were in danger of physical abuse--and were responsible for more broken bones and physical injuries to those children in one month than the entire compound had seen in two years. The CPS claimed that the FLDS mothers were not taking care of their children properly--and ended up putting several of those children in the hospital because of the gentle care they received from the state.

Joey, this SHOULD make you angry. It really should. I don't LIKE what Jeffs did. I don't LIKE what the other men did...but it turns out that they weren't the whole of the culture---and the rest of the folks were the ones the state punished because the STATE decided that they couldn't exercise their faith as they wished.

.........................and you wonder why "Christians fear gay marriage?" It's not gays getting married that's the problem. I don't give a flying fig whether they get married or not. More power to 'em.

I simply want to avoid the raids. And there WILL be those raids...metaphorically, if not physically with the guns, dogs and snipers.

So, I contend that a culture, a religion, an atheistic deal there, and if some of them agnostics don't hush, or a "belief system", a "worldview", or any of all of that gets upset 'cause one of 'em abused a position of authority in order to abuse someone, that deal there is to be looked at with jaw to the floor, eyes bugged out, and scratching at the top of one's head.

And when asked why you're so incredulous, you get more of it!

OK.

but if an atheist boy scout leader abuses one of his charges, do you think it is the appropriate response to use a crank call from "Bobby" (who is actually George who lives in an entirely different state and has a history of making such calls) as an excuse to pull a full on SWAT raid against all your atheist neighbors, remove your children, make your wives move half way across the state (without any financial support) in order to be within visiting distance of those kids, while your men are under investigation for sexual crimes.....when the guy who actually DID it is already in jail and has been for years?

I can just hear the outcry now. The world would think that the Yellowstone supervolcano had erupted during the superbowl; it would stink up the world.

And you know it.

Nope, Joey, this was wrong. But it happened, is still happening....and WILL happen if the government decides to declare that gay marriage is legal and everybody MUST accept it AS marriage, no matter what.

There won't be (because there isn't now) any exceptions for religious beliefs. There will be lawsuits. There will be tax penalties. There will be forced compliance.....

And that sort of thing is one of the reasons this nation was established in the first place; to keep governments OUT of religious freedoms.