Christian Violence

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McCulloch
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Christian Violence

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

McCulloch wrote:Is that why Christians since St. Augustine have not ever really agreed with each other about Jesus' teachings about violence?
1John2_26 wrote:... t is probably because of frustration for evil and violence within so many. But if you use the words of Jesus, there seems to be little fighting one can do in his name. Actually I can't see any. In that I think that the Quakers got it right. You seem to be saying that some Muslims and some atheists are quite as good as other Muslims and atheists. Seems like every human has the same weakness to me. I hope the good ones keep pointing out how to be nice to the bad ones. We Christians do it as a matter of fact, day in and day out. Look at Bush's loudest enemies in the US. Most claim they want their Christianity back. Wierd but true. But there is no jihad in the New Testament anywhere and c'mon jihad does mean war on infidels. That is a fact. [Are] there any wars attributed to Christians fighting to spread Christianity in the last hundred or so years? Islam is still at it.

Which is the correct Christian position? Jesus taught very plainly about violence and the correct reaction to it. Some Christian sects reject violence as a solution to interpersonal or international problems.
On the other hand the practice of many calling themselves Christian involve the practice of war. Augustine and many Christian theologians since have justified violence under certain circumstances. His restrictions are largely ignored by modern Christian soldiers. The same God that the Christians worship appears to have ordered genocide in order that his chosen people could have a homeland.

Question for debate, "Which is the authentic Christian teaching? Just war or Turn the other cheek?"
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #21

Post by Tilia »

quote="Lotan"
Tilia wrote:... I reckon you'll duck out before long. I can see the signs already.
Well, I am getting bored.
Shot to bits, y' mean. Caught out. Entangled. Knotted. :D
If you actually have any evidence, please present it.
No rush! In time!
Tilia wrote:I take it you haven't read more about this than that absurd fellow you quoted, as is your wont.
Hinton's a nutjob, to be sure, but he knows his Greek.
:-s How would you know?
Tilia wrote:Now I don't think that the word 'sword' is an interpolation.
Then why did you raise the issue?
To catch you out, silly. And it worked a treat! So you of all people can say nothing about this. Not that you have any conclusion to make anyway!
Tilia wrote:What sort of violence would require 'interpretation' of what Jesus 'meant'?
then Tilia wrote:I'm asking you, Lotan. Don't duck the issue, please. Don't spoil my fun.
Any and all sorts.
I see. There really wasn't much point in you coming here. Except for entertainment!

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Lotan
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Post #22

Post by Lotan »

Lotan wrote:If you actually have any evidence, please present it.
Tilia wrote:No rush! In time!
I won't hold my breath.
Lotan wrote:Hinton's a nutjob, to be sure, but he knows his Greek
Tilia wrote:How would you know?
Here's an idea; show that he doesn't. Strong's translation agrees with his.
Tilia wrote:There really wasn't much point in you coming here. Except for entertainment!
As I've already told you, my intention was to point out the fallacy of your statement...

"If we consider this statement in context, we see that Jesus must have been speaking metaphorically."

Now, if you would like to present that evidence for us, I'll be glad to take a look at it.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14

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Post #23

Post by bernee51 »

1John2_26 wrote: Ausrtalia is showing signs that violence is going to happen.
The recent events in Australia have nothing to do with Islam - it was a problem of 'boys behaving badly'. it just so happens that on one side there were Lebanese (muslims and christians) and on the other local residents (from a vast variety of cultures and backgrounds) who felt their 'patch' as being invaded by and disrespected by a particular group. To call it religious is wrong.
1John2_26 wrote:
... but if Muslims do not work their violent tendencies out of their religion then the world is going to get to the point of enough is enough.
I agree that there are those within Islam who promote violence but the vast majority of the words billion plus muslims are peaceful people wanting to get on with their own lives - just like christians.
1John2_26 wrote: Matter of fact Israel as a nantion and as a religious peopel are a good example to study for this thread topic.
What - on how to illegally occupy another's land, murder and assassinate at will, disregard the international community's calls to withdraw - that sort of thing?
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Post #24

Post by Tilia »

Lotan wrote:Hinton's a nutjob, to be sure, but he knows his Greek
Tilia wrote:How would you know?
Here's an idea; show that he doesn't. Strong's translation agrees with his.
The meaning of the sentence is nothing to do with 'hikanon'. It is the word 'it' that is uncertain; does 'it' refer to the swords, or to wrong words from the disciples? No-one can say, just by reading that sentence alone. It is the same problem with 'it' in just about any language. Even to talk about Greek here is just a pseudo-intellectual blind; the guy is either a very bad liar, or a hopeless language student. This sentence is simply irrelevant in this connexion, because it is ambiguous, but it cannot be for the reason he gives.
Tilia wrote:There really wasn't much point in you coming here. Except for entertainment!
As I've already told you, my intention was to point out the fallacy of your statement...
But that personal attack failed. So you have no point that relates to the role or otherwise of violence in Christianity.
"If we consider this statement in context, we see that Jesus must have been speaking metaphorically."
Now, if you would like to present that evidence for us, I'll be glad to take a look at it.
You've already read it. You made two statements about it; they were a) absurd and b) incorrect. Even the most elementary student of English or any other language knows that a figure of speech is not necessarily recognisable by any linguistic form, be that grammatical, punctuational or morphological. It is the very mind-boggling argument that fundamentalists use about early Genesis, that makes people walk away shaking their heads in amazement. And I gave evidence of the context that leads one to believe that metaphor may have been intended. Either you did not understand it, or deliberately ignored it.

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The Persnickety Platypus
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Post #25

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

Matt 5:38-39
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I tell you not to oppose an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn your other cheek to him as well."



Mat 5:9
Blessed are those who make peace. They will be called God's children.

Mat 5:22
But I can guarantee that whoever is angry with another believer will answer for it in court. Whoever calls another believer an insulting name will answer for it in the highest court. Whoever calls another believer a fool will answer for it in hellfire.


Mat 26:52
Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword away! All who use a sword will be killed by a sword.



Luke 6:27-29
"But I tell everyone who is listening: Love your enemies. Be kind to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who insult you. If someone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other cheek as well. If someone takes your coat, don't stop him from taking your shirt.


John 13:34-35
I'm giving you a new commandment: Love each other in the same way that I have loved you. Everyone will know that you are my disciples because of your love for each other."


Romans 12:14
Bless those who persecute you. Bless them, and don't curse them.



Romans 12:17
Don't pay people back with evil for the evil they do to you. Focus your thoughts on those things that are considered noble.


Romans 12:21
Don't let evil conquer you, but conquer evil with good.



Romans 13:8
Pay your debts as they come due. However, one debt you can never finish paying is the debt of love that you owe each other. The one who loves another person has fulfilled Moses' Teachings.


Rom 15:7
Therefore, accept each other in the same way that Christ accepted you. He did this to bring glory to God.


1 Cor 13:4-7
Love is patient. Love is kind. Love isn't jealous. It doesn't sing its own praises. It isn't arrogant. It isn't rude. It doesn't think about itself. It isn't irritable. It doesn't keep track of wrongs. It isn't happy when injustice is done, but it is happy with the truth. Love never stops being patient, never stops believing, never stops hoping, never gives up.


Gal 5:22-23
But the spiritual nature produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. There are no laws against things like that.



Eph 4:2
Be humble and gentle in every way. Be patient with each other and lovingly accept each other.


Eph 4:31-32
Get rid of your bitterness, hot tempers, anger, loud quarreling, cursing, and hatred. Be kind to each other, sympathetic, forgiving each other as God has forgiven you through Christ.


Col 3:8
Also get rid of your anger, hot tempers, hatred, cursing, obscene language, and all similar sins.


Col 3:12-15
As holy people whom God has chosen and loved, be sympathetic, kind, humble, gentle, and patient. Put up with each other, and forgive each other if anyone has a complaint. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. Above all, be loving.This ties everything together perfectly. Also, let Christ's peace control you. God has called you into this peace by bringing you into one body. Be thankful.


1 Th 5:15
Make sure that no one ever pays back one wrong with another wrong. Instead, always try to do what is good for each other and everyone else.

1Ti 5:21
I solemnly call on you in the sight of God, Christ Jesus, and the chosen angels to be impartial when you follow what I've told you. Never play favorites.


2Ti 2:24
A servant of the Lord must not quarrel. Instead, he must be kind to everyone. He must be a good teacher. He must be willing to suffer wrong.

Heb 12:14
Try to live peacefully with everyone, and try to live holy lives, because if you don't, you will not see the Lord.



Jam 1:19
Remember this, my dear brothers and sisters: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and should not get angry easily.


Jam 2:1
My brothers and sisters, practice your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ by not favoring one person over another.


Jam 2:8-9
You are doing right if you obey this law from the highest authority: "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." If you favor one person over another, you're sinning, and this law convicts you of being disobedient.


Jam 2:13
No mercy will be shown to those who show no mercy to others. Mercy triumphs over judgment.


Jam 3:17
However, the wisdom that comes from above is first of all pure. Then it is peaceful, gentle, obedient, filled with mercy and good deeds, impartial, and sincere.


Jam 3:18
A harvest that has God's approval comes from the peace planted by peacemakers.



Jam 4:1-3
What causes fights and quarrels among you? Aren't they caused by the selfish desires that fight to control you? You want what you don't have, so you commit murder. You're determined to have things, but you can't get what you want. You quarrel and fight. You don't have the things you want, because you don't pray for them. When you pray for things, you don't get them because you want them for the wrong reason-for your own pleasure.



Jam 4:11
Brothers and sisters, stop slandering each other. Those who slander and judge other believers slander and judge God's teachings. If you judge God's teachings, you are no longer following them. Instead, you are judging them.


1Pe 3:9
Don't pay people back with evil for the evil they do to you, or ridicule those who ridicule you. Instead, bless them, because you were called to inherit a blessing.



1Jo 2:9
Those who say that they are in the light but hate other believers are still in the dark.














Is this the doctrine in question?

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The Persnickety Platypus
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Post #26

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

Luk 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


I think it is appropriate that we quote this again, considering most people have probably forgotten what Tilia and Lotus have been berating each other over.

Here is an analyzation by a Biblical scholar and Greek expert, Bishop Pearce:

"Bishop Pearce supposes that the word μαχαιραν, sword, has been inserted here from what is said in Luk_22:38, as it is evident our Lord never intended to make any resistance, or to suffer a sword to be used on the occasion; see Mat_26:52. The word stands rather oddly in the passage: the verse, translated in the order in which it stands, is as follows: And he who hath none, let him sell his garment and buy - a sword. Now it is plain that the verb πωλησατω, let him buy, may be referred to πηραν a scrip, in the former part of the verse: therefore if, according to the bishop’s opinion, the word sword be omitted, the passage may be understood thus: “When I sent you out before, Luk_10:1, etc., I intended you to continue itinerants only for a few days, and to preach the Gospel only to your country-men; therefore you had but little need of a staff, purse, or scrip, as your journey was neither long, nor expensive; but now I am about to send you into all the world, to preach the Gospel to every creature; and, as ye shall be generally hated and persecuted for my sake, ye shall have need to make every prudent provision for your journey; and so necessary will it be for you to provide yourselves victuals, etc., for your passage through your inhospitable country, that, if any of you have no scrip or wallet, he should sell even his upper garment to provide one.”

Others, who are for retaining the word sword, think that it was a proverbial expression, intimating a time of great difficulty and danger, and that now the disciples had need to look to themselves, for his murderers were at hand. The reader will observe that these words were spoken to the disciples just before he went to the garden of Gethsemane, and that the danger was now so very near that there could be no time for any of them to go and sell his garment in order to purchase a sword to defend himself and his Master from the attack of the Jewish mob.

Judea was at this time, as we have already noticed, much infested by robbers: while our Lord was with his disciples, they were perfectly safe, being shielded by his miraculous power. Shortly they must go into every part of the land, and will need weapons to defend themselves against wild beasts, and to intimidate wicked men, who, if they found them totally defenceless, would not hesitate to make them their prey, or take away their life. However the matter may be understood, we may rest satisfied that these swords were neither to be considered as offensive weapons, nor instruments to propagate the truth. The genius and spirit of the Christian religion is equally against both. Perhaps, in this counsel of our Lord, he refers to the contention about supremacy: as if he had said, Instead of contending among yourselves about who shall be the greatest, ye have more need to unite yourselves against the common enemy, who are now at hand: this counsel was calculated to show them the necessity of union among themselves, as their enemies were both numerous and powerful."



I hate to side with Tilia (or rather, his questionable tactics), but it does appear that the purpose of carrying the sword was protection. This makes sense esspecially considering there are absolutely NO accounts throughout the entire Biblical text of the disciples being anywhere remotely violent when teaching.
One might make a similar case in the present circumstance. No, we should not go to war and commit violence. However, because we are imperfect and live in an imperfect world, God will acknowledge this and allow us to, in our own free will, decide what we should do in a given situation.

So, my initial answer is that 'turn the other cheek' is the true Christian teaching, but that God understands the choice to follow this teaching can be extremely difficult, so much so that he will forgive us should we not follow it, especially if we have done all we can to avoid practicing violence.
Personally I don't find this to be an ideal attitude.

Rom 5:20-6:1
Laws were added to increase the failure. But where sin increased, God's kindness increased even more. As sin ruled by bringing death, God's kindness would rule by bringing us his approval. This results in our living forever because of Jesus Christ our Lord. What should we say then? Should we continue to sin so that God's kindness will increase? That's unthinkable! As far as sin is concerned, we have died. So how can we still live under sin's influence?

I find that many people will embrace imperfections in order to justify their actions. This sort of mentality might have been present during periods such as the Inquisition, ect.

I contend we should always work towards perfection so that a continuously increasing inclusiveness to sin does not drag us down farther and farther.

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Post #27

Post by Tilia »

The Persnickety Platypus wrote:
I think it is appropriate that we quote this again, considering most people have probably forgotten what Tilia and Lotus have been berating each other over.
It's 'Lotan', in case you've forgotten!

I don't think that anyone will have forgotten the text, but they may not know what the 'King James' version of it means. Here it is in the NKJV, which in this case gives the best published rendition, imv.

'Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.' (Luke 22:36 NKJV)

That better signifies figurative language, and the impression of emergency and danger.

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Post #28

Post by trencacloscas »

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword.

-Matthew 10:34 (KJV)

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

-Luke 22:36 (KJV)


But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

-Luke 19:27 (KJV)
No scholars required. No context, no metaphores. Call it by the real name: EXCUSES. No word from God should be contradictory. These are.
Sor Eucharist: I need to talk with you, Dr. House. Sister Augustine believes in things that aren’t real.
Dr. Gregory House: I thought that was a job requirement for you people.

(HOUSE MD. Season 1 Episode 5)

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McCulloch
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Post #29

Post by McCulloch »

The Persnickety Platypus quoted Matthew four times, Luke and John once each, James eight times, Romans five times, Ephesians and Colosians twice each, First Corinthians, Galatians First Thessalonians, Hebrews, First Peter, First John, First and Second Timothy once each to show that the Christian New Testament has a rather plain clear repeated and unambiguous teaching on this issue. Thank you.

I believe that it is a well accepted principal of hermeneutics that passages which may be difficult should be interpreted in light of those where the meaning is clear and unambiguous. So whatever lesson you may derive from the "make sure you have a sword" episode, has to be consistent with the clear teachings cited by the monotreme.

Would anyone like to have a try at reconciling the Just War doctrine with those teachings?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

youngborean
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Post #30

Post by youngborean »

I was simply trying to point out that there are certain things that Jesus and or God recognizes in man and accepts their folly, but doesn't count it as sin against them. The passage in Luke seems to show an instance where Jesus accepts the reality that christians will have to defend themselves against persecution, no judgement is made by Jesus against this action. It is stated as a reality, so we are left to believe that there is nothing spiritually to gain or loose by doing this. But living by the sword will make increase the probability that they will loose their life. We cannot say explicitly that Jesus is against self-defence (he recognizes it as a reality of man). We can say that he promotes peaceful resistance (from the other passages that were elloquently cited), because there is much to gain spiritually from it. Jesus came to preach the Kingdom of Heaven, which is not of this world. He is not giving a simple ethical manual according to man's standards to create a perfect society. He is attempting to show people how to attain salvation through repentence, since most people will inherently respond with the realities of men and subsequent greater evils.

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