Why do we give a moral pass to unethical Abrahamic religions

[arielmessenger]

The Abrahamic religions, all three of them, have been directly or indirectly responsible for the great majority of world wars since Constantin made Christianity the Roman Empire's state religion. Christian religious colonists are responsible for the world's largest ethnic holocaust, directly or indirectly killing somewhere between 100 and 300 million Native Americans who were in the way of these European colonial imperialists. For the past 64 years the European Jewish religious colonial enterprise has been systematically eliminating indigenous Palestinian Arab peoples from Palestine in the Ashkenazim's goal of complete takeover of Palestine and remake into Israel, that enterprise being foisted on the world via Western powers winning WW II and setting up their European colony, Israel, in the heart of the Middle East using their newly created United Nations to fool the world. (The Partition of Palestine completely violated the U.N.'s Charter protecting the right of self-determination for indigenous populations). In other words, a crime against humanity has been falsely legitimatized and still we protect the culprits. Even doing so on these Internet discussion forums where monitors at the helm will block anyone protesting Abrahamic religious abuses and crimes against humanity.

What are we told? "People are free to critique any religion on this forum. There is no special status to any religion. However, what is prohibited are inflammatory language, blanket generalizations, and uncivil remarks."

In other words, if you do point out the specific crimes being perpetrated by, say, Jews supporting Israel of ethnic genocide, you get the warnings even though a former U.S. President agrees with my assessment of racial discrimination and ethnic cleansing being at the heart of Israeli settlement building. Still, we can't talk about this lest it be taken as "blanket generalization", "uncivil remarks". A stance similar in ethics to the Nazis labeling anyone who defied their aggression and occupation as "terrorists". .

I expect more from "Debating Christianity & Religion" than this Debasing Christianity and Religion with kow-towing to evil acts that come dressed up in religious form.

[cnorman18]

It occurs to me that I ought to respond to a few points here, if only to counter these bizarre falsehoods and insults with a bit of actual truth:

You want me to not speak the truth so I won't offend people who are killing innocent people in order to act out their religious myths of origin...

killing innocent people = there is no such thing as terrorism.

in order to act out their religious myths of origin = all Israelis are Orthodox Bibilical literalists.

I'm sorry, but I won't do it. It's unethical.

As if ignoring undisputed and documented facts in favor of conclusively discredited and disproven myths and vicious propaganda is ethical.

Zionism is based on paranoia, the paranoia of Judaism that always defines itself as a victim of Gentile persecution.

always defines itself = refusing to pretend it never happened.

Paranoia is consider "crazy" as it is not a psychologically healthy behavior pattern.

LIke making up Jewish teachings and traditions out of whole cloth and bigoted fantasy?

Like seeing conspiracies among the moderators on this forum because they enforce the rules to which you agreed when you joined?

Israelis act out paranoia that fears persecution by Gentile Arabs...

Did you not see the three posts filled with hundreds upon hundreds of innocent victims of Palestinian terror attacks?

Old saying: Youre not paranoid if they really are out to get you.

...while forgetting the fact that Israelis are to these Gentile Arabs illegal foreign invaders and occupiers, just like Nazis were to all the countries they invaded and occupied.

Except that I have posted documented and proven evidence, even from Arab sources, that this supposed invasion and conquest never actually happened -- evidence which you have never so much as acknowledged, never mind rebutted.

Do we condemn the French Resistance fighters? No, because they were Europeans.

The French Resistance never targeted innocent German families at weddings, religious celebrations or restaurants, nor did they ever deliberately take innocent lives, not even the families of SS officers or concentration camp guards.

Do we Westerners condemn the Palestinian resistance fighters? Yes, because they are not Europeans but Arabs, lesser people with lesser human rights.

Not enough Westerners DO condemn the Palestinian mass murderers, judging by UN resolutions; and those who DO condemn the terrorists do so because they deliberately murder innocent noncombatant civilians en masse, not because they are Arabs.

Your enormous and obvious blind spot in giving literally thousands of examples of mass murder a total pass and pretending they do not happen destroys your whole argument and makes your diatribes both ludicrous and contemptible.

This is what Norm as a Zionist shill wants us to believe because he needs to think his newly adopted religion is good but it isn't. Never was, never will be because it's core belief system is based on blanket racism, Jews good, all the rest of humankind bad, very much like white supremacy ideology.

Claims you keep making without evidence, because there is none; claims you keep making without even attempting to rebut the hard evidence that they are false which has been presented here repeatedly; claims you keep making that have no foundation other than pure, unadulterated hatred and falsehood.

Any book on basic Judaism written by Jews -- ANY book -- would deflate those scurrilous lies and insults in the first 10 pages. No Jew who has ever actually studied the Jewish religion would take these claims seriously for a millisecond. And the only possible counter to those FACTS would be the equally hateful, vicious and contemptible slander, Jews lie, which is of course implicit in every post you write.

This evil ideology is acted out in modern Israel which is the core reason why Israel cannot get along with its neighbors. It doesn't have a neighborly theology but one of "take and take some more of other people's things and give nothing back. I tell you honestly that if your religion tells you you can't share God then right there you have the precedent for not sharing anything of worth with others.

And of course you cant show a whisper of evidence for that outrageous claim; not from the hundreds of volumes of Jewish literature and teaching accumulated over the course of centuries, not from any actual Jewish source or website or book of any kind; only from your own distorted and fantasized phony allegations about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, which as we have shown multiple times, has nothing whatever to do with reality.

If you tell us you continually burn your hand on the stove while trying to lift off a hot pan and ignore calls to use a pot-holder, is it not appropriate to say you are acting foolishly? Or do you want us to keep our mouths shut about warning people from dangerous or stupid actions? Continuing to flaunt settlement building in Palestinian faces by Israel is extreme foolishness that only harms chances for peaceful reconciliation in the future.

And, once again, most American and most modern liberal Jews in Israel and worldwide are against the settlement movement; the settlement movement does not reflect Jewish teachings and traditions; and, once again, you have already been given evidence to prove the truth of all that, but you choose to ignore it without comment or rebuttal and continue to post your falsehoods and fantasies.

But it's the historical truth as scores of pogroms against Jewish communities over their entire existence proves to anyone not bamboozled by propaganda.

So persecution and pogrom prove the guilt of the victim?

Take a course in sociology and learn how human communities overcome tribal xenophobia by sharing food and marriage, both avenues forbidden by the anti-social theology of Judaism.

Jews were separated from Gentiles by Christian teaching and Gentile secular law, not by the will of the Jews. Have you never heard of Pope Innocent III? Shtetls? Ghettos? The Pale of Settlement? Laws forbidding conversion to Judaism on pain of death, both for the Gentile and all the Jews involved?

Take a course in European history and learn a few basic facts that prove your bigoted fantasies wrong in the first week of classes.

How do you think the Cohen gene is still traceable after 3000 years if not for severe racial selection in the Jewish breeding program.

The Cohen genetic markers do not prove racial selection, only that the male line among Cohens has been continuous -- and only a bare majority of Cohens possess that gene, certainly not all. The Cohen genetic markers are also present in many non-Cohens and non-Jews. Its very clear that you know as little about genetics as you do about the Jewish religion.

Same thing with the diseases specific to Ashkenazim that prove the Ashkenazim Jewish converts could outdo the Sephardic Jews in racial purity.

Then doesnt susceptibility to sickle-cell anemia prove that American blacks have also maintained their racial purity? Honestly, you clearly have no idea how recessive genes work or that there are NO diseases exclusive to ANY racial group.

Its no wonder you wont reveal a single source for any of your propaganda and fantasy science; its a sure bet that you are a regular at antisemitic and white-supremacist websites and have never looked at a genuine, credible source of information on Jewish history, Jewish law, Jewish teaching or tradition -- or genetic science.

Only since the 1950's really have Jewish communities opened up to Gentiles and intermarriage. My Jewish girlfriend says her grandparents would have disowned her parents had they married Gentiles, i.e., it was a common view.

Ah. Your Jewish girlfriend? And your OWN grandparents had nothing to say?

At one time you claimed to be a Jew yourself: at least you are no longer attempting to make THAT transparently false claim. Thanks for the slip.

Conversion and intermarriage are two separate subjects, but intermarriage has ALWAYS taken place among Jews -- Moses married a Midianite woman, and Joseph, son of Jacob, married an Egyptian -- and the Jewish community has ALWAYS been open to converts. From here:

In the time of the Mishna (250 BCE to 200 CE) there were many Greek and Roman converts to Judaism. Shmaya and Avtalyon, the teachers of Hillel, were converts. Rabbi Akiva was descended from a father who was a convert. In fact his "pedigree" in the Talmud traces itself back to Sisera, the Canaanite general slain by Yael in Devorah the prophetess' war against Yavin, the Canaanite king of Chatzor. Rabi Meir was descended from the Roman emperor Nero and Onkelos, the great translator of the Bible from Hebrew into Aramaic, was also descended from the Roman royal family....The Torah bids the Jew to be kind and welcoming to converts - in fact, it does so thirty-six times, more than any other commandment in the Torah.... In the Middle Ages, some of the renowned scholars of the Tosafists (twelfth to fourteenth century German, French and English Torah scholars) were converts or descended from converts. The Church soon made conversion to Judaism a capital offense, punishable with burning at the stake. A Jew who proselytized or helped convert a non-Jew was also liable for the death penalty. Nevertheless, in all ages and times there were righteous and sincere converts to Judaism, many times at the risk of their own lives. In eighteenth century Vilna, a famous Count Potowcki, converted to Judaism and was executed by the Church for so doing.... In the old cemetery, a great oak tree grew from his grave and it was in fact the landmark of that burial ground. He was buried adjacent to the grave of the Vilna Gaon, Rabbi Eliyahu. A number of decades ago, Rabbi Pinchas Teitz of Elizabeth, New Jersey was successful in reburying the remains of the Gaon and of the "righteous convert," Count Potowcki, in a new cemetery in Vilna, as well as the remains of a number of other famous personages. Judaism treasures the sincere and righteous convert and deems them to be heroic and holy.

Since Jews have accepted converts from the very beginning, the Jewish bloodline could not be kept pure, and no one was particularly interested in keeping it so. That Jews constitute a race is an old Nazi myth. More on that in a moment.

Not that any of these FACTS will sway you from your iron conviction that your fantasies are true.

Intermarriage between Jews and Gentiles has, at some times and places, been much more discouraged than at others; but if you understood anything about Jewish history, you would know why that is so. You dont, and its not my job to educate you -- particularly since youve made it very clear that you wont so much as acknowledge the existence of any FACTS that dont serve your hateful agenda.

Judaism is a racist religion and that's the honest truth which it seems cannot be truthfully told even though we will not hear any logical argument that disproves this. Certainly the efforts to point to Falasha Jews and Noahides and Jewish converts like Norm will not be able to mask the racial core of Judaism acted out in Israeli settlement building "For Jews Only".

And there it is again. The settlers, whom most Jews oppose, are claimed to be evidence of Jewish teachings which do not exist and never have.

There are Jews of every race on this planet. There are ethnic Arab Jews, Chinese Jews, Celtic Jews (I am one), East Indian Jews, Latino Jews, Nordic Jews, Black African Jews, Japanese Jews, Micronesian Jews, Amerind Jews, and more.

I'm certainly not "espousing miscellaneious opinions, judgments, or insults" but am very specific in my targeting Judaism's racist core ideology. If we cannot criticize Abrahamic religions for what they teach and do, what exactly are we here for?

First you have to establish that your claims about what Jews teach and do are true. You havent. You cant even counter the evidence Ive presented here that they are false.

One more time: Repeatedly making unsubstantiated claims is against the rules here. You dont get to throw around fake history and falsehoods about the religious teachings of other groups and then fake outrage when they arent swallowed without examination.

Is schmoozing with each other any substitute for an examined subject of religion that doesn't shy away from hard observations even when they offend cherished religious beliefs.

No; but then you havent done either of those. Youve posted propaganda and ignored actual debate, refusing to examine the subject of your own falsehoods and myths.

This too is hiding your censorship of ideas. You monitors want to pull your power trips and not be publicly exposed for doing so by members like me who hate self-selected editors of other people's beliefs.

And who selected YOU to determine what shall and shall not be discussed and EXAMINED here?

I am a prophesy bearer...

And are you not a self-selected one?

...and it's in my job description to upset traditional theology.

Would you post a copy of that job description, and identify and document its source?

If you want to debase debate by limiting criticism so that no one is offended then there's only vapidness of repeated statements of faith by members, no serious challenges to ideas and no value as a community discussion forum.

And if you want a forum where unsubstantiated, slanderous, and bigoted claims, no matter how outrageous or inarguably false, may not be questioned or discussed by others but must be accepted and kowtowed to without debate or examination, perhaps you should start your own.

Be a mensch and stand up in public for monitor actions.

Stop trying to peddle your hate propaganda and go away -- or at least TRY to actually engage in the DEBATE you claim you want to have.

Need I add?

Phffft.

[cnorman18]

You don't post facts, Norman, you post Zionist propaganda that you cut and paste from Zionist sources.

Then it should be EASY for you to disprove it and expose the falsehoods in my posts. Funny how you've never even attempted that.

The above is just one more unsupported claim. And as for sources -- you haven't posted any at all. Why don't you DO that, so we can see just how credible and unbiased YOUR sources are?

I post genetic facts about Ashkenazim genes that I can back up with my own Ashkenazim dna analysis that shows us Ashkenazim with minute traces of real Sephardic Jewish genes in us. Palestinian genes are Sephardic genes...

Do you think that's some kind of a news flash? Jews and Palestinians are genetic cousins. That's been know for centuries; after all, Abraham was a native of what is today Iraq. We've been interbreeding for thousands of years. I am neither Ashkenazi nor Sephardi, and still I am a Jew. Genetics is irrelevant in the Jewish religion. Whether or not one's MOTHER is Jewish matters, but whether or not one's mother is a CONVERT does not. How is it that you don't know any of this?

...so when European Jewish converts descendants make a claim to be "Semites" and then pull their Orwellian 1984 Double-Speak by saying critics of European Jewry are "anti-Semitic" while these same Europeans are trouncing real Semitic peoples make a mockery of language as well as ethics.

Sorry, but the term "anti-Semite" meant "Jew-hater" when it was coined in the 1800s by Wilhelm Marr, and it has never meant anything else.

As for DNA studies -- from Wikipedia, which seems to be the "Zionist source" that I quote most often:

A study of haplotypes of the Y-chromosome, published in 2000, addressed the paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al.[43] found that the Y-chromosome of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews contained mutations that are also common among Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the Middle East. The proportion of male genetic admixture in Ashkenazi Jews amounts to less than 0.5% per generation over an estimated 80 generations, with "relatively minor contribution of European Y chromosomes to the Ashkenazim," and a total admixture estimate "very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%." This supported the finding that "Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors."
A 2001 study by Nebel et al. showed that both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish populations share the same overall paternal Near Eastern ancestries. In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent. The authors also report on Eu 19 (R1a) chromosomes, which are very frequent in Eastern Europeans (54%"60%) at elevated frequency (12.7%) in Ashkenazi Jews. They hypothesized that the differences among Ashkenazim Jews could reflect low-level gene flow from surrounding European populations and/or genetic drift during isolation.[44] A later 2005 study by Nebel et al., found a similar level of 11.5% of male Ashkenazim belonging to R1a1a (M17+), the dominant Y-chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europeans, suggesting possible gene flow.[45]

Why don't you show us YOUR sources now, with links, like I do?

Norm, I know you have nothing better to do than run defense for Judaism and Israel so there's a limit to how much I will post here, seeing no point in debating a frozen mindset stuck in a bad Abrahamic religion that sends people off to kill resisters to its lunacy of trying to enact ancient Jewish religious fables.

Translation: "You keep insisting that I actually defend and present evidence for my claims and credible sources for my propaganda, and that I actually give meaningful responses to your arguments and evidence, and I can't do ANY of that -- so I'd better get out of here before I'm exposed as a hate-peddling fraud any more clearly than I already am."

Your forced by ego to defend it this lunacy...

No, I'm forced by the TRUTH to counter YOUR lunacy. And proven falsehoods. And unsupported claims. And to keep pointing out that you haven't, and can't, defend any of them, but only offer more of the same.

...but not me or anyone who reads the paper and can easily see Israelis are just plain greedos trying to steal every bit of Palestine away from Palestinians as the world will let them with folks like you urging this crime against humanity on.

And another sterling example of ignoring and dismissing pages upon pages of actual, factual, documented EVIDENCE without even a pretense of rebutting a word of it -- and, of course, without once acknowledging that PALESTINIAN TERRORISM is even a real topic worth discussion, never mind its being the central and most intransigent problem in the conflict. That's a "genetic marker" for anti-Israel propagandists, and it identified you about ten posts back.

Once again; you have convinced no one here. No one believes you. Everyone can see how helpless you are in the face of actual, documented evidence. You've accomplished nothing at all here, except to establish beyond doubt that venomous, visceral, determined and totally irrational Jew-hatred is still alive and well in the 21st century. (I especially liked the part where you claimed that the persecution of Jews proves that the Jews are evil. That clarified matters for everyone, I'm sure.)

Thanks for playing. 'Bye.

And oh, yeah -- Phffft.

[cnorman18]

Constantin made Christianity the Roman Empire's state religion.

Actually, Constantine merely legalized Christianity, ending the official persecution of Christians in 313. Theodosius (70 years later, in 380) effectively made Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire.

No offense meant, but if that's the only problem you saw in these posts, you're not looking hard enough.

[arielmessenger]

Norm, you are a fanatic and there's no sense in posting to you as you don't hear anything but the mantras you've learned to protect your adopted faith. All I or anyone has to do to confirm my opinions about the great spiritual error of your adopted religion is to read the daily papers. Like the Taliban, North Korea, Columbian cocaine cartels, Israel is almost daily in the news with some incursion into Palestine to kill Palestinians who naturally resist foreign invasion and occupation. You've lost your moral compass when you joined Judaism, Norm. That's the bottom line because now you cannot tell right from wrong as support for foreign invaders and occupiers and killers of resisters should have informed you. It did inform the truly righteous Jews, the Neterei Karta ultra-Orthodox Jews, why God would never stand for the barbarity of modern Israelis, who, like you, have completely lost the original purpose of Judaism which is to create a moral model for the world.

[historia]

Constantin made Christianity the Roman Empire's state religion.

Actually, Constantine merely legalized Christianity, ending the official persecution of Christians in 313. Theodosius (70 years later, in 380) effectively made Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire.

No offense meant, but if that's the only problem you saw in these posts, you're not looking hard enough.

No offense taken. It was the only part I was interested in.

[cnorman18]

Norm, you are a fanatic and there's no sense in posting to you as you don't hear anything but the mantras you've learned to protect your adopted faith. All I or anyone has to do to confirm my opinions about the great spiritual error of your adopted religion is to read the daily papers. Like the Taliban, North Korea, Columbian cocaine cartels, Israel is almost daily in the news with some incursion into Palestine to kill Palestinians who naturally resist foreign invasion and occupation. You've lost your moral compass when you joined Judaism, Norm. That's the bottom line because now you cannot tell right from wrong as support for foreign invaders and occupiers and killers of resisters should have informed you. It did inform the truly righteous Jews, the Neterei Karta ultra-Orthodox Jews, why God would never stand for the barbarity of modern Israelis, who, like you, have completely lost the original purpose of Judaism which is to create a moral model for the world.

And, once again, predictably enough:

PERSONAL ATTACKS which falsely attribute views to me that I do not hold, pretend to read my mind, and insult both my personal integrity and my religious beliefs without any warrant, evidence, or reason whatever, other than your virulent hatred. Obvious to all.

NO RESPONSE to the pages and pages of DOCUMENTED FACTS I have posted that prove your propaganda to be no more than just that, propaganda. Not even any pretense of a response; your reaction to information that conflicts with your smears is to pretend it doesn't exist. Obvious to all.

NO MENTION of terrorism as an issue in this conflict, but again, a continuing pretense that it does not exist. Obvious to all.

NO SOURCES or LINKS given for any of your phony allegations, just vague allusions to "read the newspapers." You either have no sources, or are ashamed to post links to them. Obvious to all.

NO RESPONSE to the REPEATEDLY GIVEN and PROVEN FACT that Israeli government policy is not directed nor determined by the teachings of the Jewish religion, and particularly by the modern, liberal iterations of that religion. Again, the fact that you have no arguments nor information to support your bogus claim is obvious to all.

Nothing -- nothing at all -- but more unsupported claims and false, unsourced allegations, together with a total inability or unwillingness to actually DEBATE any of these matters. You are a propagandist, pure and simple, and your calling me a "fanatic" is laughable. That's a case of the pot calling the porcelain teakettle black. You are not only an anti-Israel propagandist with nothing to offer but unsupported and unsourced smears; you even claim to be a "prophesy [sic] bearer" (the noun is spelled "prophecy") with a direct line to the Almighty, Who apparently commands you to splash outright hate and blatant falsehood all over this board.

I do read the newspapers, by the way. Do you? Just last month, over 160 rocket attacks were launched from Gaza targeting Israeli civilians. The Israelis have, of course, long since withdrawn entirely from Gaza, but of course you are not about to acknowledge either of these FACTS. They don't fit your mythology.

Keep it up. Your inability to credibly debate and respond to debate has been compared to a punch-drunk fighter coming out of his corner after 11 losing rounds, stumbling into the ring and slurring, "I'm gonna gettim this time..."

Phffft. You haven't laid a glove on me, and everyone here knows it.

[cnorman18]

Constantin made Christianity the Roman Empire's state religion.

Actually, Constantine merely legalized Christianity, ending the official persecution of Christians in 313. Theodosius (70 years later, in 380) effectively made Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire.

No offense meant, but if that's the only problem you saw in these posts, you're not looking hard enough.

No offense taken. It was the only part I was interested in.

I understand. The history of Christianity no longer holds much interest for me either -- though I DO take exception to egregious slander and falsehood on the subject.

[arielmessenger]

The Separation (Apartheid) Wall in Bethlehem cutting off Bethlehem from Jerusalem, 20 miles away, for the first time in Holy Land history. Bethlehem Palestinians are not allowed to visit Jerusalem where many of them have relatives and it is of course the holy city for Christians, Bethlehem having a majority Palestinian Christian population like Nazareth.



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Sami Awad, Director of the Holy Land Trust Palestinian peace activist organization in Bethlehem, me and Sami's daughter Lulu who blessed Paxcalibur, Sword of Peace, before I pressed Pax to the Wall and said the words out loud that prophesy the dismantlement of this and every Separation Wall and fence in the Holy Land where extreme paranoia in nationalized religious form has no place.



[/center]

[cnorman18]

...with no mention of the TERRORIST ATTACKS which were the reason the wall was built in the first place, and no response or acknowledgement of any of the material I have posted up to now....

I will add, though, that Sami Awad is a man I admire and appreciate. He advocates NONVIOLENCE and renounces terrorism. Would that more Palestinians emulated his example, and would that more anti-Israel activists took his message seriously. If there were no terror campaign, there would be no need for walls or armed responses or security measures, and the Palestinians would have their own free, independent and peaceful state within weeks if not days. But as long as the goal remains "no Israel," there will be no peace.

[arielmessenger]

...with no mention of the TERRORIST ATTACKS which were the reason the wall was built in the first place, and no response or acknowledgement of any of the material I have posted up to now....

I will add, though, that Sami Awad is a man I admire and appreciate. He advocates NONVIOLENCE and renounces terrorism. Would that more Palestinians emulated his example, and would that more anti-Israel activists took his message seriously. If there were no terror campaign, there would be no need for walls or armed responses or security measures, and the Palestinians would have their own free, independent and peaceful state within weeks if not days. But as long as the goal remains "no Israel," there will be no peace.

Sami is my friend and has stayed with me here in America while on tour giving the Palestinian side of the I-P conflict. He is also good friends with Mazin Qimseyeh, another dedicated peace activist. They would laugh at your Zionist stupidity were it not shared by so many thoughtless people like yourself who refuse to THINK morally when it comes to Israel.

Israeli archeologists say there was no Exodus, probably no Mose, no Abraham, and yet here you are defending Jewish invaders who are using the pretext of a non-existent ancient Israel and compounded fraud of gods, Vedic mixed with Canaanite and Jewish, in the Abraham story, to go into another people's land and steal it away and dare to call those who resist this horrible religious madness, "terrorists", and dare to point fingers at them, the resisters to invaders, as the guilty party. No, Norm. The Palestinians are innocent and what Zionists like you never understand is that Zionism is a very evil doctrine of men that is being played out in our times only because of Western power politics revolving around Middle East oil reserves. In short, if there were no oil to be had by Western nations, there would be no Israel today. You want to defend people dying for both religious fables or oil, go ahead, but that's not any moral choice I can make as a Christian peace activist.

I know you have nothing better to do than post rebuttal after rebuttal because you are running interference for Jewish Zionists who have at least one like you on every religious talk board to do exactly what you are doing: making sure Zionist propaganda overrides any critic's postings. You guys do it by sheer numbers of cut-and-paste Zionist talking points which you think covers "facts" even though anyone with common sense can see right through your "facts" as empty of any "Other Side" counter-representation, i.e., it's all Zionist sided. If you respect Sami and non-violence, why don't you talk to him and other Palestinians for their on-the-ground insights into what it's like to live under the boot heel of Israel fascism.

I will give you a true story of how this fascism works from direct experience of it.
In 2010 when my peace activist partner, Bridgit and I went to visit Sami in Bethlehem we took a bus from Jerusalem that almost forgot to let us out at Bethlehem and did so leaving us somewhere in the dark outside a massive long buiding and Wall. We went to the building which turned out to be the check-point entry into Bethlehem. We borrowed a cell-phone to call Sami to pick us up as Bridgit was a little frightened. There were some men milling around, taxi drivers it turned out, who didn't have any fares because why? Because IDF had shut down all entry into Bethlehem for five days prior to our arrival and only opened the check-point about an hour before we got there. We were lucky to get in, Sami said as he picked us up. He told us IDF did that in retaliation for his Holy Land Trust court victory that set a precedent disallowing IDF to arrest or tear gas peace activist protestors. 12 activists were set free and IDF shut down Bethlehem the week before Easter when Bethlehem Palestinian businesses count on Christian tourist and tourist business. Israelis do this type of shitty treatment of Palestinians constantly. No people on earth have put up with foul treatment by occupation troops longer than Palestinians. The only reason the world does not really know enough about Palestinian oppression is because of Zionist control of American media and politics that uses Christians as naive pawns for government support of Zionist policies, and funding for Israel, the highest pay out we Americans have ever made to any country by quite a few billion dollars.

By 2050 Palestinian Israelis will outnumber Jewish Israelis and the end of Israel will follow if it hasn't fallen before then due to even American Christians waking up to Israeli injustice at levels no democracy can support. I've seen it starting already with my own Evangelical kids as now mad at Bush and conservative politicians using Christian Americans for oil and war-profiteering under the guise of helping defeat "terrorism", i.e. helping to kill those who resist foreign invasion and occupation.