There are many misconceptions that exist within the field of Islam one being the topic of women. Unfortunately due to ignorance and lack of knowledge of some people and the ever growing propaganda and Islamaphobia that exist today, including the ever growing media agenda’s that govern the way people think and act, women are deemed as being unequal to men in Islam.
We are all aware that women and men are not alike so I don’t understand when someone makes the statement that Islam should practice equality, what do you mean by equality??? This word – equality – which many thinkers in both the east and the west advocate in various fields of life is a word which is based on deviation and a lack of understanding, especially when it is attributed to the religion to Islam. One of the things that people misunderstand is when they say that “Islam is the religion of equality�. What they should say is that Islam is the religion of justice.
Here we should note that there are some people who speak of equality instead of justice, and this is a mistake. We should not say equality, because equality implies no differentiation between the two. Because of this unjust call for equality, people start to ask, what is the difference between male and female?’ So they made males and females the same. We are all aware that the Male is not like the female.
God says in the Quran:
“And the male is not like the female�[Quran Aal ‘Imraan 3:36] The male is different from the female in many ways, in his strength, in his body, in his toughness and roughness, whereas women are soft and gentle. Women are like men in some aspects and they differ from them in others. Most of the rulings of Islam apply to men and women equally.
In cases where a distinction is made between the sexes, the Muslim regards that as a mercy from God and a sign of His knowledge of His creation, but the arrogant people see it as oppression and injustice, so he stubbornly insists on claiming that men and women are the same. So let him tell us how a man can carry a foetus and breastfeed it? He stubbornly ignores the weakness of women and how they bleed during their monthly period, and he stubbornly refuses to accept reality.
But the Muslim is still at peace with his faith, surrendering to the command of God. “Should not He who has created know? And He is the Most Kind and Courteous (to His slaves), All Aware (of everything)� [Quran al-Mulk 67:14 ]
Misconceptions about Islam:
Moderator: Moderators
Post #651
@ A Troubled Man
QUOTE: "LOL! No, 'swimming in a sphere' is not a trajectory for stars and moons, that is nonsense. Stars and moons don't swim in spheres."
  ANSWER: When we look at the meaning of the verse it says "and the sun and the moon" -meaning the sun with its own light and its own path and orbit and allotted time, and the moon which shines with a different light and travels on a different path and has its own allotted time.
"each in an orbit floating" - meaning, revolving.
 Ibn `Abbas said, "They revolve like a spinning wheel, in a circle.'' A circle in round not flat.
QUOTE: "It doesn't matter, the quote is referring to the sun and moon, NOT the earth."
ANSWER: If this is what you think then why are you claiming it means the earth is flat??
QUOTE: "LOL! No, 'swimming in a sphere' is not a trajectory for stars and moons, that is nonsense. Stars and moons don't swim in spheres."
  ANSWER: When we look at the meaning of the verse it says "and the sun and the moon" -meaning the sun with its own light and its own path and orbit and allotted time, and the moon which shines with a different light and travels on a different path and has its own allotted time.
"each in an orbit floating" - meaning, revolving.
 Ibn `Abbas said, "They revolve like a spinning wheel, in a circle.'' A circle in round not flat.
QUOTE: "It doesn't matter, the quote is referring to the sun and moon, NOT the earth."
ANSWER: If this is what you think then why are you claiming it means the earth is flat??
Post #652
@ Autodidact
QUOTE: "Well, obviously, it was a horrible choice to use to communicate important information to humanity then. If we can't know for sure whether something is round or flat, we certainly can't know whether women are supposed to cover their faces, whether it's good or bad to own other people, or other important messages."
ANSWER: We do know for sure the earth is round the evidence is very clear, there is no confusion.
QUOTE: "And so, as an all-powerful being, it would be downright stupid and irresponsible to use this method of communicating with us. Since it would be trivially easy for God to convey the same information to all of us in our native languages, and that would clearly be a much better way to proceed, this is yet one more reason to be sure that the qu'ran is not from God, but again, just one guy's ideas."
ANSWER: God Almighty chose for the Quran to be difficult to comprehend, and to be quite a challenge to interpret and translate in order to demonstrate Its divinity to the arabs back then, who were very experienced, mature and fluent and also addicted to poetry, along with the Arabic-speaking people today, and to challenge them and to show them that certainly the Quran is not just an average everyday book.  It is indeed a divine miracle, proving that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is indeed a truthful and real Prophet.
This is why we are encouraged to learn the Arabic language due to it's richness and to better understand it's meaning, as the transliteration does not serve and give it it's due justice. One can read the translation however, as we have seen people could misunderstand it, hence one needs to clarify the things he does not understand through understand and learning the meaning of the verses.
QUOTE: "If we look at the verse 79:30 The Quran mentions the actual shape of the earth:Â
“And we have made the earth egg shaped�. [Al-Qur’an 79:30]
Here are the translations I get for that verse:Â
And after that He spread the earth.Â
And after that, the earth: wide has He spread its expanse,Â
And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);Â
And, after that, He spread out the earth.Â
And the earth!- thereafter He stretched it out.Â
And after that He spread the earth,Â
and the earth did He prepare for life at a later date.Â
And the land after that He spread out.Â
And the earth, after that He flattened it (for life).Â
etc....Â
And finally, a lone dissenter, And after that He has spread out the earth in the egg-shape (for habitability). Ali ÃœnalÂ
Somehow, right after science figures something out, suddenly we notice it was in the qu'ran all along. But before science figured it out, no one noticed that was what the qu'ran said all along. Funny, that."
ANSWER: I don't understand what you mean, when did science prove the earth was round??Â
I don't think I have made myself clear maybe this will help.
In his book, The Qur'ân and the Orientalists, Dr. Muhammad Mohar Ali pg 75, former Professor of the History of Islam at the Islamic University of Madinah and Al-Imâm University in Riyadh, provides an extensive and detailed discussion on the Qur'anic view of the earth. Here is a relevant excerpt:
Now, the very first expression in the series, dahâhâ (which is the word used in this verse), is noticeably distinctive and different in genre from the rest, following many other previous translators, renders it as "spread out". But the exact and correct meaning of the term, keeping in view its root, rather provides a very positive Qur'anic evidence in support of the spherical shape of the earth. For dahâ means to "shape like an egg", its noun being dahiyah, which the Arabs still use to mean an egg.Â
Nevertheless, even if we take the interpretation of 'spread out' as many other commentators and translators do, there is still no conflict with science because, as Syed Qutb points out, the idea that the earth's crust was spread out after the formation of the atmosphere is a fact confirmed by modern scientific study.
QUOTE: "Well, obviously, it was a horrible choice to use to communicate important information to humanity then. If we can't know for sure whether something is round or flat, we certainly can't know whether women are supposed to cover their faces, whether it's good or bad to own other people, or other important messages."
ANSWER: We do know for sure the earth is round the evidence is very clear, there is no confusion.
QUOTE: "And so, as an all-powerful being, it would be downright stupid and irresponsible to use this method of communicating with us. Since it would be trivially easy for God to convey the same information to all of us in our native languages, and that would clearly be a much better way to proceed, this is yet one more reason to be sure that the qu'ran is not from God, but again, just one guy's ideas."
ANSWER: God Almighty chose for the Quran to be difficult to comprehend, and to be quite a challenge to interpret and translate in order to demonstrate Its divinity to the arabs back then, who were very experienced, mature and fluent and also addicted to poetry, along with the Arabic-speaking people today, and to challenge them and to show them that certainly the Quran is not just an average everyday book.  It is indeed a divine miracle, proving that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is indeed a truthful and real Prophet.
This is why we are encouraged to learn the Arabic language due to it's richness and to better understand it's meaning, as the transliteration does not serve and give it it's due justice. One can read the translation however, as we have seen people could misunderstand it, hence one needs to clarify the things he does not understand through understand and learning the meaning of the verses.
QUOTE: "If we look at the verse 79:30 The Quran mentions the actual shape of the earth:Â
“And we have made the earth egg shaped�. [Al-Qur’an 79:30]
Here are the translations I get for that verse:Â
And after that He spread the earth.Â
And after that, the earth: wide has He spread its expanse,Â
And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);Â
And, after that, He spread out the earth.Â
And the earth!- thereafter He stretched it out.Â
And after that He spread the earth,Â
and the earth did He prepare for life at a later date.Â
And the land after that He spread out.Â
And the earth, after that He flattened it (for life).Â
etc....Â
And finally, a lone dissenter, And after that He has spread out the earth in the egg-shape (for habitability). Ali ÃœnalÂ
Somehow, right after science figures something out, suddenly we notice it was in the qu'ran all along. But before science figured it out, no one noticed that was what the qu'ran said all along. Funny, that."
ANSWER: I don't understand what you mean, when did science prove the earth was round??Â
I don't think I have made myself clear maybe this will help.
In his book, The Qur'ân and the Orientalists, Dr. Muhammad Mohar Ali pg 75, former Professor of the History of Islam at the Islamic University of Madinah and Al-Imâm University in Riyadh, provides an extensive and detailed discussion on the Qur'anic view of the earth. Here is a relevant excerpt:
Now, the very first expression in the series, dahâhâ (which is the word used in this verse), is noticeably distinctive and different in genre from the rest, following many other previous translators, renders it as "spread out". But the exact and correct meaning of the term, keeping in view its root, rather provides a very positive Qur'anic evidence in support of the spherical shape of the earth. For dahâ means to "shape like an egg", its noun being dahiyah, which the Arabs still use to mean an egg.Â
Nevertheless, even if we take the interpretation of 'spread out' as many other commentators and translators do, there is still no conflict with science because, as Syed Qutb points out, the idea that the earth's crust was spread out after the formation of the atmosphere is a fact confirmed by modern scientific study.
Post #653
@ AutodidactÂ
QUOTE: "You didn't notice that verse that instructs husbands to beat their wives? Did you want me to cite it again?Â
I know that you want to argue that "beat" does not mean beat, it means something else non-violent, but once we start losing the meanings of words, the discussion becomes nonsensical. I mean, do we really have to argue that "beat" means "beat?""
ANSWER: We don't have to argue that's the whole point, why can't you just move on and accept the fact that it does not mean you can violently beat your wife.
A husband is not allowed to harm his wife. This is one of the basic principles of Islam. Because harming others is disallowed in the case of strangers, it is even more so in the case of harming one’s wife.
 It was narrated from ‘Ubaadah ibn al-Saamit that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ruled, “There should be no harming nor reciprocating harm.� (Narrated by Ibn Maajah,, 2340)
This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by Imaam Ahmad, al-Haakim, Ibn al-Salaah and others. See Khalaasat al-Badr al-Muneer, 2/438.
Among the things to which the Lawgiver drew attention in this matter is the prohibition of hitting or beating in a severe manner.
The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The best of you is the one who is best towards his family; and I am the best of you towards my family.â€�Â
(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, 285)
QUOTE: "Not others, Muslims. You keep saying "others," as though these were Buddhists rioting in the streets. These others are Muslims, practicing Islam to the best of their abilities.Â
True, they have only an incomprehensible text in a confusing language, as you have explained to us, but surely you would not disagree that they have the right and obligation to do their best to follow it? I realize that you have an unusual and creative interpretation of things, in which beating are non-violent and slavery doesn't mean owning people, but I can't expect the average Muslim to use language in such a unique and creative, not to say confusing, way.Â
I think that when the qu'ran says slavery, they think it means owning people. When it says beating, they think it means beating. And when it says to kill non-Muslims, they think it says to actually kill them"
ANSWER: I rather use the word others cause I am firstly not sure of the authenticity of the proof you have provided, secondly I am not certain if they are indeed Muslims who are committing these crimes.
We don't make our own understanding of the Quran this is where the problem lies.
Let's just deny all the evidence provided.
QUOTE: "Not at all. What part do you take issue with?"
ANSWER: All of what you said
QUOTE: "No, what I said was, the imams did not issue fatwas calling on Muslim to stop rioting, stop burning down buildings, stop beating up innocent people. Instead, they issued fatwas directing them to pursue jihad against the infidels"
ANSWER: But the evidence you provided was about a fatwa that was issued about the cartoonist not about rioting, where is the fatwa against rioting?
QUOTE: "I'm sure neither you nor I can know what this fantasy "True Islam" is. I have no interest in fantasies. What I'm talking about is actual Islam as actually practiced by actual Muslims. That's the Islam that rioted, burned down buildings, and slaughtered innocent Europeans"
ANSWER: Yes, this is correct actual Muslims follow actual true Islam, A Muslim that kills innocent people for an unjustifiable cause is not following true Islam.
QUOTE: "The question is, what is an "innocent person" in a religion that commands its followers to kill people for what they believe or don't believe"
ANSWER: The Quran and Sunnah make it very clear who is innocent or not.Â
QUOTE: "Well, would you please first answer my simple question about slavery?Â
ANSWER: I haveÂ
QUOTE: "No, they are not, and that is one of the many reason that Muslims are fleeing those countries by the millions.Â
Of course, in those same countries, women are not even free to leave their own front doors without the consent of their male minders, so your statement is a flat out lie, as you know."
ANSWER: How do you know they are not happy with their religion?, they may not be happy due to their lifestyle because they are constantly at war, but we have already discussed this. They are two different things.
The wife is required to live in harmony with the husband and the husband is required to be affectionate and accommodating as far as possible to the needs of his wife.Â
He is not allowed to impose any undue restrictions on her, with regard to a wife seeking her husband’s permission before leaving the house, this is not to oppress her in any way, it is to protect her and to build mutual trust between spouses so the husband is aware of her where bouts and who she is with, if a husband genuinely considers that going out might disrupt the family in any way, he has the authority to exercise his right of stopping her and in these circumstances, she should always ask permission to leave the house.Â
In this regard, the husband knows that if he imposes himself without any sound and justifiable reason, he would be crossing the bounds set by God.
QUOTE: "And what if a Muslim woman would prefer not to have to put a tent on over her clothes every time she wants to leave her house? Should she not be free to do so?"
ANSWER: She would be disobeying the commands of God, resulting in sin, if in fact she chooses not to cover up. A Muslim is one that agrees to the commands of God, any Muslim who rejects or denies any laws set by God saying I don't believe this is part of Islam has committed kufr hence taking them out of the folds of Islam he is not a Muslim, so a Muslim would have no objection in this matter and is lovingly accepting and submitting to the laws set by God, protecting her chastity.
QUOTE: "So now you're saying that women can be a CEO, but not a prime minister? Why not?"
ANSWER: If she is in compliant to the laws that are set by God there is no objection to her being a CEO, but the responsibility that comes along with being a ruler of a country and the things that are required of this position are not befitting the nature of women, as she would need to mix with men, to devote her time solely in dealing with the affairs of the state, furthermore because this position involves handling very serious matters. This position would take away her valuable time from her other responsibilities she has, such as taking care of her children spending time with them, supporting them etc...
QUOTE: "You didn't notice that verse that instructs husbands to beat their wives? Did you want me to cite it again?Â
I know that you want to argue that "beat" does not mean beat, it means something else non-violent, but once we start losing the meanings of words, the discussion becomes nonsensical. I mean, do we really have to argue that "beat" means "beat?""
ANSWER: We don't have to argue that's the whole point, why can't you just move on and accept the fact that it does not mean you can violently beat your wife.
A husband is not allowed to harm his wife. This is one of the basic principles of Islam. Because harming others is disallowed in the case of strangers, it is even more so in the case of harming one’s wife.
 It was narrated from ‘Ubaadah ibn al-Saamit that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ruled, “There should be no harming nor reciprocating harm.� (Narrated by Ibn Maajah,, 2340)
This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by Imaam Ahmad, al-Haakim, Ibn al-Salaah and others. See Khalaasat al-Badr al-Muneer, 2/438.
Among the things to which the Lawgiver drew attention in this matter is the prohibition of hitting or beating in a severe manner.
The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The best of you is the one who is best towards his family; and I am the best of you towards my family.â€�Â
(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, 285)
QUOTE: "Not others, Muslims. You keep saying "others," as though these were Buddhists rioting in the streets. These others are Muslims, practicing Islam to the best of their abilities.Â
True, they have only an incomprehensible text in a confusing language, as you have explained to us, but surely you would not disagree that they have the right and obligation to do their best to follow it? I realize that you have an unusual and creative interpretation of things, in which beating are non-violent and slavery doesn't mean owning people, but I can't expect the average Muslim to use language in such a unique and creative, not to say confusing, way.Â
I think that when the qu'ran says slavery, they think it means owning people. When it says beating, they think it means beating. And when it says to kill non-Muslims, they think it says to actually kill them"
ANSWER: I rather use the word others cause I am firstly not sure of the authenticity of the proof you have provided, secondly I am not certain if they are indeed Muslims who are committing these crimes.
We don't make our own understanding of the Quran this is where the problem lies.
Let's just deny all the evidence provided.
QUOTE: "Not at all. What part do you take issue with?"
ANSWER: All of what you said
QUOTE: "No, what I said was, the imams did not issue fatwas calling on Muslim to stop rioting, stop burning down buildings, stop beating up innocent people. Instead, they issued fatwas directing them to pursue jihad against the infidels"
ANSWER: But the evidence you provided was about a fatwa that was issued about the cartoonist not about rioting, where is the fatwa against rioting?
QUOTE: "I'm sure neither you nor I can know what this fantasy "True Islam" is. I have no interest in fantasies. What I'm talking about is actual Islam as actually practiced by actual Muslims. That's the Islam that rioted, burned down buildings, and slaughtered innocent Europeans"
ANSWER: Yes, this is correct actual Muslims follow actual true Islam, A Muslim that kills innocent people for an unjustifiable cause is not following true Islam.
QUOTE: "The question is, what is an "innocent person" in a religion that commands its followers to kill people for what they believe or don't believe"
ANSWER: The Quran and Sunnah make it very clear who is innocent or not.Â
QUOTE: "Well, would you please first answer my simple question about slavery?Â
ANSWER: I haveÂ
QUOTE: "No, they are not, and that is one of the many reason that Muslims are fleeing those countries by the millions.Â
Of course, in those same countries, women are not even free to leave their own front doors without the consent of their male minders, so your statement is a flat out lie, as you know."
ANSWER: How do you know they are not happy with their religion?, they may not be happy due to their lifestyle because they are constantly at war, but we have already discussed this. They are two different things.
The wife is required to live in harmony with the husband and the husband is required to be affectionate and accommodating as far as possible to the needs of his wife.Â
He is not allowed to impose any undue restrictions on her, with regard to a wife seeking her husband’s permission before leaving the house, this is not to oppress her in any way, it is to protect her and to build mutual trust between spouses so the husband is aware of her where bouts and who she is with, if a husband genuinely considers that going out might disrupt the family in any way, he has the authority to exercise his right of stopping her and in these circumstances, she should always ask permission to leave the house.Â
In this regard, the husband knows that if he imposes himself without any sound and justifiable reason, he would be crossing the bounds set by God.
QUOTE: "And what if a Muslim woman would prefer not to have to put a tent on over her clothes every time she wants to leave her house? Should she not be free to do so?"
ANSWER: She would be disobeying the commands of God, resulting in sin, if in fact she chooses not to cover up. A Muslim is one that agrees to the commands of God, any Muslim who rejects or denies any laws set by God saying I don't believe this is part of Islam has committed kufr hence taking them out of the folds of Islam he is not a Muslim, so a Muslim would have no objection in this matter and is lovingly accepting and submitting to the laws set by God, protecting her chastity.
QUOTE: "So now you're saying that women can be a CEO, but not a prime minister? Why not?"
ANSWER: If she is in compliant to the laws that are set by God there is no objection to her being a CEO, but the responsibility that comes along with being a ruler of a country and the things that are required of this position are not befitting the nature of women, as she would need to mix with men, to devote her time solely in dealing with the affairs of the state, furthermore because this position involves handling very serious matters. This position would take away her valuable time from her other responsibilities she has, such as taking care of her children spending time with them, supporting them etc...
Post #654
@ Autodiact
QUOTE: "Your evasion is noted.Â
Wrong is wrong, no matter how many other children do it, Johnnie"
ANSWER: And your calling me evasive, lol, I would like it if you would answer the question according the the definition you gave of slavery does America own these prisoners of war? Yes or No
QUOTE: "And is the Islamic understanding the definition that I have now provided three times? Does it involve one person owning another as property?"
ANSWER: I'm not going to repeat myself I have answered this already. Now can you please answer my question?
QUOTE: "Your evasion is noted.Â
Wrong is wrong, no matter how many other children do it, Johnnie"
ANSWER: And your calling me evasive, lol, I would like it if you would answer the question according the the definition you gave of slavery does America own these prisoners of war? Yes or No
QUOTE: "And is the Islamic understanding the definition that I have now provided three times? Does it involve one person owning another as property?"
ANSWER: I'm not going to repeat myself I have answered this already. Now can you please answer my question?
Post #655
@ Autodidact
QUOTE: "Not interested in discussing the prisoners in Afghanistan, thanks. Start a thread if you are. We are talking about Islam"
ANSWER: This is about Islam, they are Muslim prisoners, so are they owned according to the Western understanding of slavery as property or not??
QUOTE: "Now you're trying to say that you can own something without it being your property? Seriously? The word "own" means : to have or hold as property. (Merriam Webster) Your attempts to make nonsense of commonly understood words cannot change reality."
ANSWER: No, I'm trying to say that Islam does not treat people like property. Does property have a soul, emotions, feelings and human?
QUOTE: "Islam doesn't view slaves as property?"
ANSWER: They are not treated like property. You are referring the word "owned" to the treatment of slaves as property this is not the case.
QUOTE: "Muhammad owned slaves. He captured, bought, sold and owned slaves. btw, capturing, buying, selling and owning slaves is immoral and wrong.Â
Freeing slaves is nice. Even nicer is not owning them in the first place.Â
Giving back some of the money you steal is nice. Even nicer is not stealing it in the first place"
ANSWER: Can you provide evidence of this please just want to see what your talking about.
What would you do with prisoners of war??
QUOTE: "If so, please allow me to retract and apologize. Wherever you find Muslims living in Muslim countries under Muslim laws you find this. Where Muslims live in secular countries and abide by their laws, you find it less."
ANSWER: There is no country ruled by complete  Shariah law.Â
QUOTE: "Which follows wherever Islam is found"
ANSWER: Exactly because people are always at war with Islam.
QUOTE: "Not interested in discussing the prisoners in Afghanistan, thanks. Start a thread if you are. We are talking about Islam"
ANSWER: This is about Islam, they are Muslim prisoners, so are they owned according to the Western understanding of slavery as property or not??
QUOTE: "Now you're trying to say that you can own something without it being your property? Seriously? The word "own" means : to have or hold as property. (Merriam Webster) Your attempts to make nonsense of commonly understood words cannot change reality."
ANSWER: No, I'm trying to say that Islam does not treat people like property. Does property have a soul, emotions, feelings and human?
QUOTE: "Islam doesn't view slaves as property?"
ANSWER: They are not treated like property. You are referring the word "owned" to the treatment of slaves as property this is not the case.
QUOTE: "Muhammad owned slaves. He captured, bought, sold and owned slaves. btw, capturing, buying, selling and owning slaves is immoral and wrong.Â
Freeing slaves is nice. Even nicer is not owning them in the first place.Â
Giving back some of the money you steal is nice. Even nicer is not stealing it in the first place"
ANSWER: Can you provide evidence of this please just want to see what your talking about.
What would you do with prisoners of war??
QUOTE: "If so, please allow me to retract and apologize. Wherever you find Muslims living in Muslim countries under Muslim laws you find this. Where Muslims live in secular countries and abide by their laws, you find it less."
ANSWER: There is no country ruled by complete  Shariah law.Â
QUOTE: "Which follows wherever Islam is found"
ANSWER: Exactly because people are always at war with Islam.
Post #656
@ Herictic
QUOTE: "A spinning wheel is flat. As I stated earlier, nowhere in the entire Quran does it mention a moving or round earth. In fact, if you picture a table as the earth and the sun chasing the moon (as the Quran states) you get an orbit and a flat earth."
ANSWER: Did you read my post? What verse are you talking about?
QUOTE: "A spinning wheel is flat. As I stated earlier, nowhere in the entire Quran does it mention a moving or round earth. In fact, if you picture a table as the earth and the sun chasing the moon (as the Quran states) you get an orbit and a flat earth."
ANSWER: Did you read my post? What verse are you talking about?
Post #657
@ Herictic
QUOTE: "There isnt anything miraculous about the Quran at all. The "miracles" are how Muslims try to give the Quran validity. In fact, the so called miracles are either:Â
1) Already known by the time of MohammedÂ
2) A vague, amibigous verseÂ
3) One or two verses with an obvious, simple solution twisted over and over to say something else.Â
Case in point. I have had years ago, a few debates with Muslims. This is a very popular "miracle". One that has been claimed numerous times that no one could have possibly known about, unless Allah passed along this information.Â
[025:053] It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.Â
Hal, can you please explain what this verse is refering to? I'm assuming you are familiar with it, as it is one of the more popular amazing find. Thanks.Â
ANSWER: This is not true how on earth would these things be possible to have been discovered without the right equipment especially when it comes to embryology, this is simply not possible.
I have already explained this is detail in the past, but in brief:
"And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter" -meaning He has created the two kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers, springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a doubt, for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet.Â
God has told us about reality so that His servants may realize His blessings to them and give thanks to Him. The sweet water is that which flows amidst people. God has portioned it out among His creatures according to their needs; rivers and springs in every land, according to what they need for themselves and their lands.
"and that is salty and bitter" - meaning that it is salty, bitter and not easy to swallow. This is like the seas that are known in the east and the west, the Atlantic Ocean and the Straits that lead to it, the Red Sea, the Arabian Sea, the Persian Gulf, the China Sea, the Indian Ocean, the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea and so on, all the seas that are stable and do not flow, but they swell and surge in the winter and when the winds are strong, and they have tides that ebb and flow.Â
At the beginning of each month the tides ebb and flood, and when the month starts to wane they retreat until they go back to where they started.Â
When the crescent of the following month appears, the tide begins to ebb again until the fourteenth of the month, then it decreases. Allah, may He be glorified, the One Whose power is absolute, has set these laws in motion, so all of these seas are stationary, and He has made their water salty lest the air turn putrid because of them and the whole earth turn rotten as a result, and lest the earth spoil because of the animals dying on it. Because its water is salty, its air is healthy and its dead are good (to eat)
"and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them." - meaning, between the sweet water and the saltwater.
"a barrier" - meaning a partition, which is dry land.
"and a complete partition" - meaning a barrier, to prevent one of them from reaching the other. This is like the verse:
"He has let loose the two seas meeting together. Between them is a barrier which none of them can transgress. Then which of the blessings of your Lord will you both deny" (55:19-21)
(source Ibn Kathir)
QUOTE: "There isnt anything miraculous about the Quran at all. The "miracles" are how Muslims try to give the Quran validity. In fact, the so called miracles are either:Â
1) Already known by the time of MohammedÂ
2) A vague, amibigous verseÂ
3) One or two verses with an obvious, simple solution twisted over and over to say something else.Â
Case in point. I have had years ago, a few debates with Muslims. This is a very popular "miracle". One that has been claimed numerous times that no one could have possibly known about, unless Allah passed along this information.Â
[025:053] It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.Â
Hal, can you please explain what this verse is refering to? I'm assuming you are familiar with it, as it is one of the more popular amazing find. Thanks.Â
ANSWER: This is not true how on earth would these things be possible to have been discovered without the right equipment especially when it comes to embryology, this is simply not possible.
I have already explained this is detail in the past, but in brief:
"And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter" -meaning He has created the two kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers, springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a doubt, for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet.Â
God has told us about reality so that His servants may realize His blessings to them and give thanks to Him. The sweet water is that which flows amidst people. God has portioned it out among His creatures according to their needs; rivers and springs in every land, according to what they need for themselves and their lands.
"and that is salty and bitter" - meaning that it is salty, bitter and not easy to swallow. This is like the seas that are known in the east and the west, the Atlantic Ocean and the Straits that lead to it, the Red Sea, the Arabian Sea, the Persian Gulf, the China Sea, the Indian Ocean, the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea and so on, all the seas that are stable and do not flow, but they swell and surge in the winter and when the winds are strong, and they have tides that ebb and flow.Â
At the beginning of each month the tides ebb and flood, and when the month starts to wane they retreat until they go back to where they started.Â
When the crescent of the following month appears, the tide begins to ebb again until the fourteenth of the month, then it decreases. Allah, may He be glorified, the One Whose power is absolute, has set these laws in motion, so all of these seas are stationary, and He has made their water salty lest the air turn putrid because of them and the whole earth turn rotten as a result, and lest the earth spoil because of the animals dying on it. Because its water is salty, its air is healthy and its dead are good (to eat)
"and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them." - meaning, between the sweet water and the saltwater.
"a barrier" - meaning a partition, which is dry land.
"and a complete partition" - meaning a barrier, to prevent one of them from reaching the other. This is like the verse:
"He has let loose the two seas meeting together. Between them is a barrier which none of them can transgress. Then which of the blessings of your Lord will you both deny" (55:19-21)
(source Ibn Kathir)
Post #658
@ Goat
QUOTE: "Well, you know.. the claim that 'the quran know the earth was round before it could be known' is an out right piece of misinformation. The Greeks knew that in 300 bce... it existed as a philosophical question from the 6th century bce, but the astronomers confirmed it in the 3rd century bce. that was a good 600 years before the koran was written.Â
To claim that.. well.. it totally destroys the credibility of the claimer."
ANSWER: Can you please give me more information I am interested and would like to read about this, thanks
QUOTE: "Well, you know.. the claim that 'the quran know the earth was round before it could be known' is an out right piece of misinformation. The Greeks knew that in 300 bce... it existed as a philosophical question from the 6th century bce, but the astronomers confirmed it in the 3rd century bce. that was a good 600 years before the koran was written.Â
To claim that.. well.. it totally destroys the credibility of the claimer."
ANSWER: Can you please give me more information I am interested and would like to read about this, thanks
Post #659
You are convinced that the verses we were discussing shows a round earth. In fact, a few clearly show a flat earth. I asked for a single verse that shows the earth moving. You havent given one that I can recall. You seem to think that the Quran mentioning an "orbit" for the sun and moon is an amazing find, yet I have shown in context that the simpliest explanation which backs up the Quran is a flat, non moveable earth (the table example) with the moon chasing the sun (creating night and day per the Quran), sun and moon going around.HaLi8993 wrote: @ Herictic
QUOTE: "A spinning wheel is flat. As I stated earlier, nowhere in the entire Quran does it mention a moving or round earth. In fact, if you picture a table as the earth and the sun chasing the moon (as the Quran states) you get an orbit and a flat earth."
ANSWER: Did you read my post? What verse are you talking about?
This is scientifically inaccurate and described by the Quran.
Post #660
First, by doing a quick internet search on miracles of the Quran, few actually use your example, land. Most that I have found talk about the waters meeting each other, with different salinity density and temperature that do not mix. It is then stated that no one could possibly have known about this. Now, this is the most popular example, one claimed to be a miracle from Muslim sites. First, the "invisible barrier" was known hundreds of years earlier by the Greeks and that the waters do mix. But do they Muslim sites report this? No.HaLi8993 wrote: @ Herictic
QUOTE: "There isnt anything miraculous about the Quran at all. The "miracles" are how Muslims try to give the Quran validity. In fact, the so called miracles are either:Â
1) Already known by the time of MohammedÂ
2) A vague, amibigous verseÂ
3) One or two verses with an obvious, simple solution twisted over and over to say something else.Â
Case in point. I have had years ago, a few debates with Muslims. This is a very popular "miracle". One that has been claimed numerous times that no one could have possibly known about, unless Allah passed along this information.Â
[025:053] It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.Â
Hal, can you please explain what this verse is refering to? I'm assuming you are familiar with it, as it is one of the more popular amazing find. Thanks.Â
ANSWER: This is not true how on earth would these things be possible to have been discovered without the right equipment especially when it comes to embryology, this is simply not possible.
I have already explained this is detail in the past, but in brief:
"And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter" -meaning He has created the two kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers, springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a doubt, for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet.Â
God has told us about reality so that His servants may realize His blessings to them and give thanks to Him. The sweet water is that which flows amidst people. God has portioned it out among His creatures according to their needs; rivers and springs in every land, according to what they need for themselves and their lands.
"and that is salty and bitter" - meaning that it is salty, bitter and not easy to swallow. This is like the seas that are known in the east and the west, the Atlantic Ocean and the Straits that lead to it, the Red Sea, the Arabian Sea, the Persian Gulf, the China Sea, the Indian Ocean, the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea and so on, all the seas that are stable and do not flow, but they swell and surge in the winter and when the winds are strong, and they have tides that ebb and flow.Â
At the beginning of each month the tides ebb and flood, and when the month starts to wane they retreat until they go back to where they started.Â
When the crescent of the following month appears, the tide begins to ebb again until the fourteenth of the month, then it decreases. Allah, may He be glorified, the One Whose power is absolute, has set these laws in motion, so all of these seas are stationary, and He has made their water salty lest the air turn putrid because of them and the whole earth turn rotten as a result, and lest the earth spoil because of the animals dying on it. Because its water is salty, its air is healthy and its dead are good (to eat)
"and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them." - meaning, between the sweet water and the saltwater.
"a barrier" - meaning a partition, which is dry land.
"and a complete partition" - meaning a barrier, to prevent one of them from reaching the other. This is like the verse:
"He has let loose the two seas meeting together. Between them is a barrier which none of them can transgress. Then which of the blessings of your Lord will you both deny" (55:19-21)
(source Ibn Kathir)
Second, you start of by implying (I could be wrong, I'm actually unsure what route you are taking) that it is impossible to know. Yet your explanation (which I believe is the correct explanation), that of land, is common sense. Drinking waters are seperated from salt waters, by land most of the time. No miracle. No wisdom from Allah. Human common sense easily seen and experienced.
You brought up embryology. Again, the Quran makes no amazing find in this respect. Another example of how this is not a miracle is two fold: The Quran makes a few mistakes regarding it. Embryology as per the Quran actually mirrors that of the Greeks, which predated Mohammed.
So far, we have yet to see one miracle of the Quran. It makes no mention of a round earth, an oribiting earth. The Quran clearly spells out the earth is flat. It mentions the sun and moon going around the earth-chasing each other, creating the night and day.
The seperation of the waters, although claimed to be miracle on many Muslim sites, is not.
I will say this though, I am more impressed that you actually address everyones multiple posts than I am with the Quran.
