Proving that Mormonism is false

[Nickman]

I claim that it is a fact that the LDS faith is 100% false and I will back it up. I will use know facts that are extra-biblical. As well as the bible. I am an atheist and a humanist just so you know my background. I was a christian for most of my life and LDS for several of those years and I live in mormon central, SLC.

In this thread please make contributions for or againts the arguement.

Joseph Smith is the trunk of the tree known as mormonism so if you cut him out you make the tree fall.

Joseph claimed he was visited after a sincere prayer asking what church was the true church. He said he was answered by god and jesus. The bible says no man hath seen god, but I don't believe in the bible so I will move forward. Later he was visited by moroni which was an angel three times in one night depending on which version you read. He was told about some plates which he would receive when he was old enough. Age was a big deal back then when it came to truth. He said he received the plates when the time was appointed and they were gold. Note that the weight of the plates would have been 30-60 lbs. There were eight witnesses to the plates which later were excommunicated. They never denied but their affiliation was suspicious. Four were Whitmers and friends of the Smith's. The others were Smiths. So two families associated well. The witness selection is very sketchy. Smith went to translate and his efforts were secret. On one occassion Martin harris wanted to prove to his wife that the money they had loaned was not used in vain and asked for the copies. Smith obliged after some prodding and low and behold the 116 copies were lost so moroni took the plates back from july to sept 1828. Those 116 pages were dismissed because Smith couldnt reproduce them or if he could then harris's wife would alter the originals making Smith a liar. Sounds like a backup plan or a latter day cover up.

Ok past all that Joseph gave the plates back and could never produce them to anyone that could actually give any credit to them. What we are left with is the book of mormon, the most boring read I have ever come across. It was translated by a man with an eigth grade education and reads as such. It claims many things such as horses in south america, that werent there, spices and swords that were not there. Names of places that are not found.

With all this said the book of Abraham is the most damnable. Especially the facsimilies. These facsimilies were sold after Smiths death by his wife and lost for a while. Before and after that several Egyptologists reviewed them and reported as such all of which are sourced;

Wikipedia

Sometime in 1856, Theodule Deveria, an Egyptologist at the Louvre, had the opportunity to examine the facsimiles published as part of the Book of Abraham. [24] His interpretation, juxtaposed with Smith's interpretation, was published in T. B. H. Stenhouse's book The Rocky Mountain Saints: A Full and Complete History of the Mormons in 1873. [25] Additionally, later in 1912, Reverend Franklin S. Spalding sent copies of the three facsimiles to eight Egyptologists and semitists soliciting their interpretation of the facsimiles, the results of which were published in Spalding's work Joseph Smith, Jr. As a Translator. Deveria, and each of the eight scholars recognized the facsimiles as portions of ordinary funerary documents, and some harshly condemned Joseph Smith's interpretation: Egyptologist Dr. James H. Breasted of the University of Chicago noted:

"... these three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith’s interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization." [26]

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote:

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations" [27]

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford professor of Egyptology,

“It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith’s impudent fraud.... Smith has turned the goddess [Isis in Facsimile No.[28]

The actual papyrus has was found... it is not what joseph translated. Joseph was a fraud but very smart. He made money from his followers. His legacy still does.

[Clownboat]

You counter the arguments by linking us to a mormon website? What is this? It's merely a website for mormons. How do you counter any good argument with this?

A question if I may, if christians refuse to accept Joseph smith as a profit then what will become of them?

You do realise jesus said that he is the word and anyone who tries to speak as if from god is a fraud or a false idol? You do know that Joseph Smith was a fraud and a liar?

You admit then that Mormons exist!? In the OP, the poster claims that Mormon is a false religion. I claim that they do in fact exist. You admitted that they exist by saying a "mormon" website. So it is in fact a true religion, not a false religion.

I disagree with you Moses. I believe it takes more than a website for a religion to be true.

A website may mean a religion exists, but it does not speak to it being true.

[Moses Yoder]

You counter the arguments by linking us to a mormon website? What is this? It's merely a website for mormons. How do you counter any good argument with this?

A question if I may, if christians refuse to accept Joseph smith as a profit then what will become of them?

You do realise jesus said that he is the word and anyone who tries to speak as if from god is a fraud or a false idol? You do know that Joseph Smith was a fraud and a liar?

You admit then that Mormons exist!? In the OP, the poster claims that Mormon is a false religion. I claim that they do in fact exist. You admitted that they exist by saying a "mormon" website. So it is in fact a true religion, not a false religion.

I disagree with you Moses. I believe it takes more than a website for a religion to be true.

A website may mean a religion exists, but it does not speak to it being true.

The first two definitions of "true" at dictionary.com is as follows;

true   [troo] Show IPA adjective, tru·er, tru·est, noun, adverb, verb, trued, tru·ing or true·ing.
adjective
1.
being in accordance with the actual state or conditions; conforming to reality or fact; not false: a true story.
2.
real; genuine; authentic: true gold; true feelings.

Both of these definitions would be true of the Mormon Religion. It does in fact exist in actual state, and it is real or genuine.

False is the opposite of true;

false   [fawls] Show IPA adjective, fals·er, fals·est, adverb
adjective
1.
not true or correct; erroneous: a false statement.

.

Since the Mormon religion has been shown to exist or be true it cannot be false.


Words have various meanings and I think to communicate clearly sometimes you need to define the words you are using. For instance the word "false" has 5 different meanings at dictionary.com.

[Clownboat]

You counter the arguments by linking us to a mormon website? What is this? It's merely a website for mormons. How do you counter any good argument with this?

A question if I may, if christians refuse to accept Joseph smith as a profit then what will become of them?

You do realise jesus said that he is the word and anyone who tries to speak as if from god is a fraud or a false idol? You do know that Joseph Smith was a fraud and a liar?

You admit then that Mormons exist!? In the OP, the poster claims that Mormon is a false religion. I claim that they do in fact exist. You admitted that they exist by saying a "mormon" website. So it is in fact a true religion, not a false religion.

I disagree with you Moses. I believe it takes more than a website for a religion to be true.

A website may mean a religion exists, but it does not speak to it being true.

The first two definitions of "true" at dictionary.com is as follows;

true   [troo] Show IPA adjective, tru·er, tru·est, noun, adverb, verb, trued, tru·ing or true·ing.
adjective
1.
being in accordance with the actual state or conditions; conforming to reality or fact; not false: a true story.
2.
real; genuine; authentic: true gold; true feelings.

Both of these definitions would be true of the Mormon Religion. It does in fact exist in actual state, and it is real or genuine.

False is the opposite of true;

false   [fawls] Show IPA adjective, fals·er, fals·est, adverb
adjective
1.
not true or correct; erroneous: a false statement.

.

Since the Mormon religion has been shown to exist or be true it cannot be false.


Words have various meanings and I think to communicate clearly sometimes you need to define the words you are using. For instance the word "false" has 5 different meanings at dictionary.com.

You are arguing semantics.
To prove my point:

Does a website prove a religion exists in belief, or does it prove that the religion is literally true, and the claims of the religion are true, which is what I was arguing against?

A website does not make the claims of a religion true (to get around your semantics argument).

I trust the readers are aware of what I was saying.

[PREEST]

You counter the arguments by linking us to a mormon website? What is this? It's merely a website for mormons. How do you counter any good argument with this?

A question if I may, if christians refuse to accept Joseph smith as a profit then what will become of them?

You do realise jesus said that he is the word and anyone who tries to speak as if from god is a fraud or a false idol? You do know that Joseph Smith was a fraud and a liar?

You admit then that Mormons exist!? In the OP, the poster claims that Mormon is a false religion. I claim that they do in fact exist. You admitted that they exist by saying a "mormon" website. So it is in fact a true religion, not a false religion.

What are you talking about? You're not serious are you? Nobody is saying that mormons don't exist, we are saying their beliefs and teachings are untrue and wrong. How can you misunderstand this? Of course mormons exist!! I feel you are trying to obscure the topic? You don't need to 'claim' they exist, it's a fact they exist. You completely misunderstood what OP is talking about.

To OP, except moses' confusion as to the word 'false' I don't think anyone misunderstood what you are saying.

[connermt]

I claim that it is a fact that the LDS faith is 100% false and I will back it up. I will use know facts that are extra-biblical. As well as the bible. I am an atheist and a humanist just so you know my background. I was a christian for most of my life and LDS for several of those years and I live in mormon central, SLC.

In this thread please make contributions for or againts the arguement.

Joseph Smith is the trunk of the tree known as mormonism so if you cut him out you make the tree fall.

Joseph claimed he was visited after a sincere prayer asking what church was the true church. He said he was answered by god and jesus. The bible says no man hath seen god, but I don't believe in the bible so I will move forward. Later he was visited by moroni which was an angel three times in one night depending on which version you read. He was told about some plates which he would receive when he was old enough. Age was a big deal back then when it came to truth. He said he received the plates when the time was appointed and they were gold. Note that the weight of the plates would have been 30-60 lbs. There were eight witnesses to the plates which later were excommunicated. They never denied but their affiliation was suspicious. Four were Whitmers and friends of the Smith's. The others were Smiths. So two families associated well. The witness selection is very sketchy. Smith went to translate and his efforts were secret. On one occassion Martin harris wanted to prove to his wife that the money they had loaned was not used in vain and asked for the copies. Smith obliged after some prodding and low and behold the 116 copies were lost so moroni took the plates back from july to sept 1828. Those 116 pages were dismissed because Smith couldnt reproduce them or if he could then harris's wife would alter the originals making Smith a liar. Sounds like a backup plan or a latter day cover up.

Ok past all that Joseph gave the plates back and could never produce them to anyone that could actually give any credit to them. What we are left with is the book of mormon, the most boring read I have ever come across. It was translated by a man with an eigth grade education and reads as such. It claims many things such as horses in south america, that werent there, spices and swords that were not there. Names of places that are not found.

With all this said the book of Abraham is the most damnable. Especially the facsimilies. These facsimilies were sold after Smiths death by his wife and lost for a while. Before and after that several Egyptologists reviewed them and reported as such all of which are sourced;

Wikipedia

Sometime in 1856, Theodule Deveria, an Egyptologist at the Louvre, had the opportunity to examine the facsimiles published as part of the Book of Abraham. [24] His interpretation, juxtaposed with Smith's interpretation, was published in T. B. H. Stenhouse's book The Rocky Mountain Saints: A Full and Complete History of the Mormons in 1873. [25] Additionally, later in 1912, Reverend Franklin S. Spalding sent copies of the three facsimiles to eight Egyptologists and semitists soliciting their interpretation of the facsimiles, the results of which were published in Spalding's work Joseph Smith, Jr. As a Translator. Deveria, and each of the eight scholars recognized the facsimiles as portions of ordinary funerary documents, and some harshly condemned Joseph Smith's interpretation: Egyptologist Dr. James H. Breasted of the University of Chicago noted:

"... these three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith’s interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization." [26]

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote:

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations" [27]

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford professor of Egyptology,

“It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith’s impudent fraud.... Smith has turned the goddess [Isis in Facsimile No.[28]

The actual papyrus has was found... it is not what joseph translated. Joseph was a fraud but very smart. He made money from his followers. His legacy still does.

Having life experience in both "camps", I don't find anyone one belief more "strange/silly/weird/etc" than the other, in the fact of their core belief - the WHAT.
The HOW on the other hand...to me, christianity's HOW makes (barely) more sense.
But that's like saying a GT 500 is faster than a ZL1 - that's a true statement, but when you're pushing 190MPH, the details don't matter that much.
On a side note, it is said that Joey Smith..."enjoyed the company of men". Though mormons don't accept this as true. Maybe it's not, but it's still fun to consider.

[kayky]

The mythology of any religion, if taken literally, sounds ridiculous.

[Nickman]

I claim that it is a fact that the LDS faith is 100% false and I will back it up. I will use know facts that are extra-biblical. As well as the bible. I am an atheist and a humanist just so you know my background. I was a christian for most of my life and LDS for several of those years and I live in mormon central, SLC.

In this thread please make contributions for or againts the arguement.

Nickman wrote:

Joseph Smith is the trunk of the tree known as mormonism so if you cut him out you make the tree fall.

Moses Yoder wrote:

You have not shown this to be true. I believe Mormons think God is the trunk of their religion and Jospeh Smith was just a prophet. Also, Joseph Smith is dead and rotted, so it would be pretty hard to cut him up.

The founder of a faith group is the trunk of that group. They are the one that the faith stands on. If the founder is proving to speak falsely or is found to be a fraud then the credentials of that organization are dismissed. Not that they had any merit to begin with. JS is the backbone of the faith and his works are what created the LDS faith. If we discredit him we discredit his work and the entire organization.

Nickman wrote:

Joseph claimed he was visited after a sincere prayer asking what church was the true church. He said he was answered by god and jesus. The bible says no man hath seen god, but I don't believe in the bible so I will move forward

.
Moses Yoder wrote:

So youare not challenging that statement and not providing any evidence to the contrary.

Why would I challenge my own statement?

1 John 4:12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

and

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Right off the bat we have a statement not made by me but by biblical authors stating no one has seen god.

Here is the first vision as posted on your Mormon.org website:
As a boy, Joseph Smith was surrounded by various churches which, though they disagreed with on another, each claimed to teach the truth. This caused him much serious reflection. He wanted to know which church was right. One day he read a passage in the Bible which says, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him� (James 1:5). Joseph decided to accept the invitation to ask God.

In the spring of 1820, Joseph went to a grove of trees near his home and prayed to learn which church he should join. In answer to his prayer, Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. Joseph wrote: “When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!� Joseph was told to join none of the churches that existed at that time as the priesthood authority and Church as Jesus Christ had organized it when He was on the earth had been lost over the centuries.

Joseph Smith’s First Vision marked the beginning of the Restoration of Jesus Christ’s Church to the earth. Joseph’s written account of this event is a powerful testimony of what he saw and experienced. (Joseph Smith’s History chapter 1 verses 8-17.)

Nickman wrote:

Later he was visited by moroni which was an angel three times in one night depending on which version you read. He was told about some plates which he would receive when he was old enough. Age was a big deal back then when it came to truth. He said he received the plates when the time was appointed and they were gold. Note that the weight of the plates would have been 30-60 lbs.

Moses Yoder wrote

I see no refutation here. There is more than 30 pounds of gold in the world, thus Joseph Smith's claim could have been possible.

Yes there is gold available and it is possible, but the problem is who makes 60 lbs of gold into a book? Also it has been stated that in order to fit the entire book of mormon onto said plates they would weigh alot more than that. How convenient is it lugging around 60lbs or possibly more? The claim doesn't make any sense.

Nickman wrote:

There were eight witnesses to the plates which later were excommunicated. They never denied but their affiliation was suspicious. Four were Whitmers and friends of the Smith's. The others were Smiths. So two families associated well. The witness selection is very sketchy.

Moses Yoder wrote:

I do not see you anywhere refuting these claims or providing evidence to the contrary. You seem to believe the plates actually did exist and there were eight witnesses.

Again why would I refute my own claims? There were supposed eight witnesses and as another post has stated they were not reliable and the signatures were printed. I in no way would believe there were 60lbs plates. The plates cannot be produced now and only a few sketchy witnesses are all that attest to it. Plus the fact that Smith was involved in criminal acts doesn't add to his credibility. These were brought to light by Hugh Nibley a very credible source and was once a proponent for the Mormon agenda.

Produce the plates and we can start talking about the truth behind the BoM.

Nickman wrote:

Smith went to translate and his efforts were secret. On one occassion Martin harris wanted to prove to his wife that the money they had loaned was not used in vain and asked for the copies. Smith obliged after some prodding and low and behold the 116 copies were lost so moroni took the plates back from july to sept 1828. Those 116 pages were dismissed because Smith couldnt reproduce them or if he could then harris's wife would alter the originals making Smith a liar. Sounds like a backup plan or a latter day cover up.

Moses Yoder:

The only thing I see here is your personal opinion that this was a backup plan or coverup with no evidence provided.

I am putting forth a hypothesis as to why the 116 copies that were lost could not be reproduced. I claim it could have been because Smith couldn't reproduce them by retranslating again from the same plates because there were no plates and the stories were off the top of his head. Smith came up with a plan that he would disregard them and stated that it was satan's work against him and if he reproduced them that the originals would be altered and he would be called a fraud. Here is a pro LDS website that gives some explainations as to why Smith didn't reproduce them. It states reasons such as lessons in humility, that god knew the outcome would not be good and it was his plan not to reproduce them. Anyone who has a brain can see what is most plausible. The simplest answer is almost always right. I claim they were not reproduced cause he couldn't and had he attempted to do so, if there were any inconsistencies he would be discredited as a prophet. If he would have reproduced by the power of God (who is all-powerful) verbatim what he originally translated this would have been a credit to his abilities and claims.

Nickman wrote:

Ok past all that Joseph gave the plates back and could never produce them to anyone that could actually give any credit to them. What we are left with is the book of mormon, the most boring read I have ever come across. It was translated by a man with an eigth grade education and reads as such. It claims many things such as horses in south america, that werent there, spices and swords that were not there. Names of places that are not found.

Here we are left with your personal opinion that the book of Mormon is boring and mentions some things in some areas that weren't there, with no mention of what those things were or documentation that they were not there.

Of course its my opinion that it is boring nobody needs you to emphasize that for them. The book does not, I repeat does not, read as a scholarly or very educated work. It is full of grammatical errors that indicate the lack of expertise and knowledge in the English language by the author Joseph Smith. It is also written in King James style. Why would this be so? What is the reason to use this style?

Nickman wrote:

With all this said the book of Abraham is the most damnable. Especially the facsimilies. These facsimilies were sold after Smiths death by his wife and lost for a while. Before and after that several Egyptologists reviewed them and reported as such all of which are sourced;

Wikipedia

Sometime in 1856, Theodule Deveria, an Egyptologist at the Louvre, had the opportunity to examine the facsimiles published as part of the Book of Abraham. [24] His interpretation, juxtaposed with Smith's interpretation, was published in T. B. H. Stenhouse's book The Rocky Mountain Saints: A Full and Complete History of the Mormons in 1873. [25] Additionally, later in 1912, Reverend Franklin S. Spalding sent copies of the three facsimiles to eight Egyptologists and semitists soliciting their interpretation of the facsimiles, the results of which were published in Spalding's work Joseph Smith, Jr. As a Translator. Deveria, and each of the eight scholars recognized the facsimiles as portions of ordinary funerary documents, and some harshly condemned Joseph Smith's interpretation: Egyptologist Dr. James H. Breasted of the University of Chicago noted:

"... these three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith’s interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization." [26]

Moses Yoder wrote:

Here you give me an interesting quote, saying the book of Abraham is the most damnable. Exactly what do you mean by damnable? Then you have a Wikipedia quote. I will give you the benefit of the doubt since you are new here but Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Some people believe the sources given at the ends of the articles on Wiki are good sources, but if you went to court with a Wiki article you would get laughed out of court.

I have been on this site longer than you Moses, why do you say I am new? I sit quietly back reading posts and threads and wait until the time is right for me to join in.

The Book of Abraham is most damnable to the LDS faith IMO because it was a chance for Smith to translate something that could actually be verified and he failed miserably and didn't even get one character correct. The church was presented the papyrus and they had experts verify if JS' translations were correct. It was made publicly clear that they were not and the church had to come up with excuses as to why. One excuse was that he translated the spiritual meaning from them, but Joseph's journal entries of which he copied the characters and placed definitions beside them proved he was translating the characters. For some of the characters he had whole paragraphs for definitions. Wiki can be a good source when it has source material that can be verified. The same way I source something on this forum.

Nickman wrote:

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote:

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations" [27]

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford professor of Egyptology,

“It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith’s impudent fraud.... Smith has turned the goddess [Isis in Facsimile No.[28]

The actual papyrus has was found... it is not what joseph translated. Joseph was a fraud but very smart. He made money from his followers. His legacy still does.

Moses Yoder wrote:

Here apparently you have several pediatricians commenting on something they are not qualified to assess.

Dr. Petrie is known as the "Father of Egyptology" he has more than enough credentials to dismiss JS' work.

Dr. A.H. Sayce was a Professor of Assyriology at the University of Oxford from 1891 to 1919. He also had the credentials to dismiss JS.


Moses Yoder wrote:

I counter your arguments with my belief that the Mormon religion is in fact very real, is active today with many members, and present as evidence this website;

mormon.org

I use the LDS websites to get the information to dismiss it. The same way I do with the bible. The LDS faith is built on fraud, lies and deceit. Anyone who does a serious study and research of this organizations origins will come to the same conclusion. I knew a Bishop in my ward that told me it was all false one day. I asked why he was still a member. He told me it was because it is a good place to raise a family.

Truth always overcomes scrutiny, this is how we classify something as a theory. Gravity is a theory. A theory is a hypothesis that has never been dismissed by nature or any facts that come its way. The LDS faith fails to stand up to scrutiny.

[Autodidact]

Well, there's a lot to cover here. I think one basic is this: We know with as much certainty as we know anything that the story in the Book of Mormon (BoM) did not happen. To the extent that LDS religion or theology claims that it did, it is wrong.

[Nickman]

The Kinderhook plates are another mistake made by Joseph Smith, in that, he translated an actual hoax played on him by a Wilbur Fugate in 1843. Fugate created 6 plates and inscribed on them fake characters and placed them in an Indian burial mound. They were seen by an LDS elder who was at the excavation of the mound and suggested that they be brought to the attention of JS. Joseph looked at them and stated this;

"I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook... I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth."
Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 5, p. 372

A few years later Wilbur Fugate came forward (after JS' death) and stated that he forged the plates as a hoax. Later the plates were lost, but one popped up in a Chicago museum and was believed to be plate #5. Tests on the plate were performed in 1960, 1966 and 1969. The results of those tests proved inconclusive. The plate could have been made in the 1800s as claimed by the hoaxer or could have been much more ancient as the Church had always claimed.

Later in 1980 permission was given by the museum to perform destructive tests on the plate. The results were consistent with 1800s metal work and the manner in which the hoaxer claimed. The results, with out a shadow of a doubt, proved that Smith translated fake plates unaware.

[Moses Yoder]

various stuff

For what it's worth, I think your follow up post does a better job of explaining why you think the claims of the Mormon church are false than your OP did.