The witch of Endor

[Burninglight]

When the prophet Samuel told King Saul he lost his Kingdom because of his rebellion against God. He started taking matters into his own hands. After prophet Samuel's death he was troubled. He still wanted the prophet's blessing. So he went to the witch of Endor. The witch was afraid, because they put witches to death back then, but King Saul promised her protection. He wanted her to conjure up the prophet Samuel, and when she did, she totally freaked out when he showed up.
I couldn't understand why she freaked out nor could I understand why she was able to move the hand of God to allow the prophet of God to show up at her beckoning. I have an idea what happen, but I like to hear someone elses opinion as to what they think happened.

[Divine Insight]

Okay, that was a fine attempt at destroying Christianity. Tell me where do you get your divine insight? I ask because if there is no God that you should recommend atheism, where is your insight coming from? Are you saying you are a goddess?

Where does your insight come from? Hebrew fables?

I call my insight "divine" because it comes directly from the living spirit of reality.

It's intuitive insight, not a regurgitation of ancient fables.

You have no clue that what you are actually asking me to do to. When you suggest that I should accept the Hebrew fables literally, you are actually suggesting that I should relinquish a very profound and infinite picture of unbounded divinity, and to instead start viewing "God" as a jealous egoistical male-chauvinistic pig who evidently hates everyone who refuses to obey him and love him.

In other words, you're asking me to trade in a truly awesome infinite picture of "God" as an unbounded "Holy Spirit", and to instead think of him as an insane human-like egotistical maniac who would make a barroom drunkard appear to be a wise man in comparison.

Why would I want to reduce my picture of God from an infinitely powerful Holy Spirit to embrace the Hebrew picture of a jealous male-chauvinistic pig God who supposedly curses serpents to crawl on their bellies?

After all if I accept the literal interpretations that you demand, then I must believe that the Hebrew God gets his jollies off by making serpents crawl on their bellies and supposedly eat dirt.

The God I imagine is far above that.

So for me to convert to your religion would be a HUGE step down. I'd have to give up on the idea of a truly wise and infinitely intelligent God and start thinking of God as a idiot.

I really have no reason to wish to think of God as an idiot.

So the Hebrew folklore holds no interest for me. It's clearly as far from being divine as anything can possibly be, IMHO.

[Burninglight]

Okay, that was a fine attempt at destroying Christianity. Tell me where do you get your divine insight? I ask because if there is no God that you should recommend atheism, where is your insight coming from? Are you saying you are a goddess?

Where does your insight come from? Hebrew fables?

I call my insight "divine" because it comes directly from the living spirit of reality.

It's intuitive insight, not a regurgitation of ancient fables.

You have no clue that what you are actually asking me to do to. When you suggest that I should accept the Hebrew fables literally, you are actually suggesting that I should relinquish a very profound and infinite picture of unbounded divinity, and to instead start viewing "God" as a jealous egoistical male-chauvinistic pig who evidently hates everyone who refuses to obey him and love him.

In other words, you're asking me to trade in a truly awesome infinite picture of "God" as an unbounded "Holy Spirit", and to instead think of him as an insane human-like egotistical maniac who would make a barroom drunkard appear to be a wise man in comparison.

Why would I want to reduce my picture of God from an infinitely powerful Holy Spirit to embrace the Hebrew picture of a jealous male-chauvinistic pig God who supposedly curses serpents to crawl on their bellies?

After all if I accept the literal interpretations that you demand, then I must believe that the Hebrew God gets his jollies off by making serpents crawl on their bellies and supposedly eat dirt.

The God I imagine is far above that.

So for me to convert to your religion would be a HUGE step down. I'd have to give up on the idea of a truly wise and infinitely intelligent God and start thinking of God as a idiot.

I really have no reason to wish to think of God as an idiot.

So the Hebrew folklore holds no interest for me. It's clearly as far from being divine as anything can possibly be, IMHO.

So you believe in God. You just don't believe in the Biblical God. Your god is far above the God of the Bible. Uhmm, but there is only one God. We are all His creation. We just aren't all His children. So what is the message of your God? Does he send anyone to hell? Does he offer salvation? If yes what are the conditions.

You already know the terms of my God. He teaches me that there is a way that seems right to a man but that way leads to death. I also have learned that Satan is the god of this world who appears as an angel of light. He can appear as all we would expect God to be and who promises everything but delivers nothing. He is the father of lies and the author of confusion.

My God is a God of love. Greater love can no man have than to lay down His life for a friend. I might risk my life to save a good dying person, but Christ gave His life for us while we were sinners. It is written we have all sinned and come short of God's glory. The wages of sin is death but God's gift is eternal life through Christ. I have accepted that gift. How can I be sure of eternal life with your god?

[Divine Insight]

So you believe in God. You just don't believe in the Biblical God.

In terms of rational thought I believe in the reasonable plausibility of the existence of "God". Although I confess that the very term "God" has been so contaminated by western perceptions that the term may be inapplicable based on how most westerners view the concept of "God".

Your god is far above the God of the Bible.

Infinitely so.

Uhmm, but there is only one God. We are all His creation. We just aren't all His children.

If we are all his "creation" then we are necessarily all his "children". The idea that there could be a difference is the concoction of Western and Mediterranean thinking.

So what is the message of your God? Does he send anyone to hell? Does he offer salvation? If yes what are the conditions.

There is no "message". There is no "hell" (other than perhaps the living hells that we create for ourselves). And there are no conditions. God's love is truly unconditional.

You already know the terms of my God. He teaches me that there is a way that seems right to a man but that way leads to death.

God didn't teach you that. The ancient Hebrews did.

I also have learned that Satan is the god of this world who appears as an angel of light. He can appear as all we would expect God to be and who promises everything but delivers nothing. He is the father of lies and the author of confusion.

And where did this evil demon come from? Did the Hebrew God create him?

Where does this evil demon get his POWER from? Does the Hebrew God give him power, or does he have his own?

It seems to me that if the Hebrew God gives this Satan his power then the Hebrew God is supporting and approving everything that this Satan does and stands for.

On the other hand, if this Satan has power of his own, then obviously the Hebrews have two "Gods" at war with one another. An evil one and supposedly a benevolent one.

So how do you justify that dilemma?

My God is a God of love. Greater love can no man have than to lay down His life for a friend. I might risk my life to save a good dying person, but Christ gave His life for us while we were sinners.

Soldiers, police officers, fire-fighters, paramedics and all manner of mortal men have given their lives to save others. So the story of "Christ" supposedly giving his life to save men is far from unique or special.

However soldiers, police officers, fire-fighters, and paramedics, etc., really have no choice in the matter. They have limited options which places them in a position where risking their life is the only way to save the life of another.

What you seem to have accepted is that some supposedly "God of Love" had his son butchered on a pole to appease himself so that he could forgive other people.

That's just totally sick, IMHO.

What was the threat? Why did this God have to "sacrifice" his son?

As I've said, mortal men make sacrifices because they know of no other way to deal with their problems. Men don't have infinite wisdom to avoid wars, and they aren't omnipotent to put out fires or heal injured people by merely waving a magic wand.

You're comparing a God having his son crucified on a pole with mortal men who wouldn't have a choice. But supposedly an infinity wise and infinitely powerful God would not need to make such a 'sacrifice' to save anyone. If he wants to forgive people of their sins he could just do it. He would have no need to have his son nailed to a pole before he could do that unless he was quite limited in his powers and driven to such a state of desperation because he had no better options (just like feeble mortal men)

So the Christian picture of God demands that God is quite limited as well as being desperate. Or potentially insane.

It is written we have all sinned and come short of God's glory.

Where is it written? In Hebrew folklore?

It may as well be written in Greek mythology as far as I'm concerned.

I simply don't accept the Hebrew picture of God. Evidently you do.

The wages of sin is death but God's gift is eternal life through Christ. I have accepted that gift.

The idea that the "Wages of sin is death" is yet another thing that is merely written in Hebrew folklore. Again I dismiss those superstitions as precisely that: Superstitions.

Moreover, if the "Wages of sin is Death" it would need to be spiritual death, not merely mortal death. Right? I mean if your 'saved' you'll be spiritually resurrected when your body dies. Right?

So in these Hebrew fables the "Wages of sin is Spiritual Death", not just bodily death.

Well, if that's true then how could Jesus have "paid" the wages of sin for anyone?

Wasn't he supposedly resurrected after he his body had died?

Didn't he supposedly then ascend to "Heaven" shortly thereafter?

Isn't that's what supposed to happen to the good people who haven't sinned?

Well duh?

If Jesus was resurrected and swooped off to heaven then clearly he couldn't have paid the "Wages of sin" if those wages are spiritual death.

Not only was he resurrected spiritually and ascended to heaven, but according to these fables, he was even assigned a throne at the right hand of God and will be the eternal king over heaven the rest of eternity.

If that's true, then how could he have "paid" for the sins of man if the "wages of sin is spiritual death"? Jesus made it to heaven and will supposedly be the King of heaven for eternity.

The story doesn't even work. It makes no sense at all. Jesus didn't spiritual die to pay for anything.

How can I be sure of eternal life with your god?

Because there's no way to avoid it.

You're not separate from God, your a manifestation of God.

The only reason you're thinking the way you do is because you've accepted the Hebrew picture of God.

For you, "It is written". And that's impressive to you.

The only thing I would remind you is that many other religious fables have been "written" too. So a lot of things have been "written". That doesn't automatically make them true.

[Burninglight]

So you believe in God. You just don't believe in the Biblical God.

In terms of rational thought I believe in the reasonable plausibility of the existence of "God". Although I confess that the very term "God" has been so contaminated by western perceptions that the term may be inapplicable based on how most westerners view the concept of "God".

Your god is far above the God of the Bible.

Infinitely so.

Uhmm, but there is only one God. We are all His creation. We just aren't all His children.

If we are all his "creation" then we are necessarily all his "children". The idea that there could be a difference is the concoction of Western and Mediterranean thinking.

So what is the message of your God? Does he send anyone to hell? Does he offer salvation? If yes what are the conditions.

There is no "message". There is no "hell" (other than perhaps the living hells that we create for ourselves). And there are no conditions. God's love is truly unconditional.

You already know the terms of my God. He teaches me that there is a way that seems right to a man but that way leads to death.

God didn't teach you that. The ancient Hebrews did.

I also have learned that Satan is the god of this world who appears as an angel of light. He can appear as all we would expect God to be and who promises everything but delivers nothing. He is the father of lies and the author of confusion.

And where did this evil demon come from? Did the Hebrew God create him?

Where does this evil demon get his POWER from? Does the Hebrew God give him power, or does he have his own?

It seems to me that if the Hebrew God gives this Satan his power then the Hebrew God is supporting and approving everything that this Satan does and stands for.

On the other hand, if this Satan has power of his own, then obviously the Hebrews have two "Gods" at war with one another. An evil one and supposedly a benevolent one.

So how do you justify that dilemma?

My God is a God of love. Greater love can no man have than to lay down His life for a friend. I might risk my life to save a good dying person, but Christ gave His life for us while we were sinners.

Soldiers, police officers, fire-fighters, paramedics and all manner of mortal men have given their lives to save others. So the story of "Christ" supposedly giving his life to save men is far from unique or special.

However soldiers, police officers, fire-fighters, and paramedics, etc., really have no choice in the matter. They have limited options which places them in a position where risking their life is the only way to save the life of another.

What you seem to have accepted is that some supposedly "God of Love" had his son butchered on a pole to appease himself so that he could forgive other people.

That's just totally sick, IMHO.

What was the threat? Why did this God have to "sacrifice" his son?

As I've said, mortal men make sacrifices because they know of no other way to deal with their problems. Men don't have infinite wisdom to avoid wars, and they aren't omnipotent to put out fires or heal injured people by merely waving a magic wand.

You're comparing a God having his son crucified on a pole with mortal men who wouldn't have a choice. But supposedly an infinity wise and infinitely powerful God would not need to make such a 'sacrifice' to save anyone. If he wants to forgive people of their sins he could just do it. He would have no need to have his son nailed to a pole before he could do that unless he was quite limited in his powers and driven to such a state of desperation because he had no better options (just like feeble mortal men)

So the Christian picture of God demands that God is quite limited as well as being desperate. Or potentially insane.

It is written we have all sinned and come short of God's glory.

Where is it written? In Hebrew folklore?

It may as well be written in Greek mythology as far as I'm concerned.

I simply don't accept the Hebrew picture of God. Evidently you do.

The wages of sin is death but God's gift is eternal life through Christ. I have accepted that gift.

The idea that the "Wages of sin is death" is yet another thing that is merely written in Hebrew folklore. Again I dismiss those superstitions as precisely that: Superstitions.

Moreover, if the "Wages of sin is Death" it would need to be spiritual death, not merely mortal death. Right? I mean if your 'saved' you'll be spiritually resurrected when your body dies. Right?

So in these Hebrew fables the "Wages of sin is Spiritual Death", not just bodily death.

Well, if that's true then how could Jesus have "paid" the wages of sin for anyone?

Wasn't he supposedly resurrected after he his body had died?

Didn't he supposedly then ascend to "Heaven" shortly thereafter?

Isn't that's what supposed to happen to the good people who haven't sinned?

Well duh?

If Jesus was resurrected and swooped off to heaven then clearly he couldn't have paid the "Wages of sin" if those wages are spiritual death.

Not only was he resurrected spiritually and ascended to heaven, but according to these fables, he was even assigned a throne at the right hand of God and will be the eternal king over heaven the rest of eternity.

If that's true, then how could he have "paid" for the sins of man if the "wages of sin is spiritual death"? Jesus made it to heaven and will supposedly be the King of heaven for eternity.

The story doesn't even work. It makes no sense at all. Jesus didn't spiritual die to pay for anything.

How can I be sure of eternal life with your god?

Because there's no way to avoid it.

You're not separate from God, your a manifestation of God.

The only reason you're thinking the way you do is because you've accepted the Hebrew picture of God.

For you, "It is written". And that's impressive to you.

The only thing I would remind you is that many other religious fables have been "written" too. So a lot of things have been "written". That doesn't automatically make them true.

To be honest with you. It is difficult for me to identify with the God of the Old Testament, but I can identify with Jesus. You said since we are all God's creation we are His children. Jesus said that the Pharisees were of their father the devil. According to His words, God has His children and Satan has his.

It is written in the NT that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that perish, but to us that are being saved, it is the power of God. There has to be a hell, because there are people who do demonic things on earth who will be going from the fryer into the fire.

We both believe God is good and love, but i also believe He is just. To receive His wonderful mercy we must meet Him on His terms... IMHO, by what you say, you are going places I fear to thread; in fact, I believe angels are as well. Satan rebelled against God. Pride brought him down. The only way he can hurt God is by deceiving souls away from God so they will have a Christless eternity.
God is not a Chauvinistic pig; He is a God of love and mercy. Since He is our Creator He gets to choose what His terms are. I respect very much those terms

[Divine Insight]

To be honest with you. It is difficult for me to identify with the God of the Old Testament, but I can identify with Jesus. You said since we are all God's creation we are His children. Jesus said that the Pharisees were of their father the devil. According to His words, God has His children and Satan has his.

Well it's certainly not my intent to change your beliefs. The only reason I respond to you the way I do is because you have basically been 'preaching' to others as if it's important for them to believe in Jesus.

When you do that, it's only natural that other people (like myself) are going to point out to you why we don't personally accept the Hebrew picture and the story of Jesus verbatim.

You say that you have difficulty identifying with the God of the Old Testament too. But Jesus ultimately must stand on the shoulders of that God if he is to be the Sacrificial Lamb of that God.

Moreover, the whole idea is that you are supposed to love the God of the Old Testament with all your mind, heart, and soul. Not Jesus. Loving Jesus is truly irrelevant in Christianity. Unless, of course, you're going to hold Jesus up as being God the Father, but does it really make any sense to do that?

I'm just pointing out why I dismiss the religion.

I also don't accept this idea that God isn't our "father" then Satan is.

How in the world does that happen? Moreover this suggests that God the Father is in competition with Satan to see how many children each can "win over".

And if we look at the entire biblical story from that point of view what do we see?

We see Satan winning the vast majority of souls. In fact, Satan was winning over soul so profoundly that God had to step in and create a Great Flood to wash them all over to Satan and start over with Noah and his family.

Even later when Jesus comes as the "Sacrificial Lamb" of God to "pay" for the sins of man. That could only be seen as a desperate attempt by God to try to win at least a few souls.

In fact, we even have Jesus saying that the path is straight and the gate is narrow to heaven and only few will make it. Well, if only few make it into God's kingdom than Satan must be winning the vast majority of souls.

But what would this amount to? It would amount to a creator who loses the vast majority of souls that he creates to a demonic fallen angels.

Does that truly make sense to you?

You'd have a demonic fallen angel winning the vast majority of souls that God creates.

It is written in the NT that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that perish, but to us that are being saved, it is the power of God. There has to be a hell, because there are people who do demonic things on earth who will be going from the fryer into the fire.

Having justice done to those do demonic things is fair enough. But the Eastern Mystical religions have that covered with karma. Eastern mysticism isn't a free ticket to just do whatever you want and think you can get away with it. It's has a totally righteous and just system for dealing with bad people.

The problem I have with the Jesus fables is that they condemn people for merely not believing in Jesus. And that mostly comes from John 3:18 where he proclaims that those who do not believe in the name of Jesus as the only begotten son of God are condemned already.

But is that truly righteous to condemn people for merely not believing something?

How does that equate to demonic people doing demonic things?

I mean, Gee Whiz, if you want to believe in Jesus why not at least try to interpret scriptures as benevolently as possible?

There are passages where Jesus say himself that he will not judge those who do not believe in him or his words. He also says that he did not come for the righteous but for the sinners. So unless you really feel that you are a sinner why not accept that you're a righteous person and you don't need to be 'saved' from anything because you're already a healthy soul?

On the cross Jesus himself supposedly cried out "Father forgive them for they know not what they do", and he was talking about the people who were mocking him, denying him, beating him, and crucifying him to death.

So why should you believe that Jesus would cast innocent people into hell for merely no believing in ancient Hebrew stories?

We both believe God is good and love, but i also believe He is just. To receive His wonderful mercy we must meet Him on His terms...

Justice to me would be for him to embrace and accept innocent people who simply didn't believe outrageous stories that are over 2000 years old.

I'm sorry, but any God who would condemn people for not believing in 2000 year old fables that were created simultaneously with many other mythologies and have so much in common with them, is just insane.

How could any truly righteous God blame anyone for not believing in such crazy stories?

IMHO, by what you say, you are going places I fear to thread; in fact, I believe angels are as well. Satan rebelled against God. Pride brought him down. The only way he can hurt God is by deceiving souls away from God so they will have a Christless eternity.

Well I'm not rebelling against any God. And I'm certainly not full of pride thinking that I'm "better" than God. But I do believe that if there exists a truly all-wise omnipotent God he/she/it would be far "better" than the God described in the Hebrew mythology.

God is not a Chauvinistic pig; He is a God of love and mercy. Since He is our Creator He gets to choose what His terms are. I respect very much those terms

Like I say, you should believe whatever is right for you. I'm not trying to change your beliefs.

But if you're going to go around trying to convince other people to believe in those things proclaiming that if they fail to believe this God will cast them into a hell fire or whatever, then clearly those people are going to tell you why they don't buy into it.

You don't feel that this God is a male-chauvinistic. Fine. That's your perception of these stories, and helps to explain why you may not see them as being so absurd.

For me the bible is riddled with male-chauvinism from the beginning Genesis onward. He creates Eve as an after-thought from a rib of Adam. Eve is the one who supposedly leads Adam into the fall from grace. God curses Eve with sorrowful childbirth for her supposed disobedience (even though she had confessed to having been innocently beguiled by that nasty serpent). God also punishes her by demanding that she must forever be the servant to her husband and always do his bidding and strive to serve his desire. And that was part of Eve's "punishment".

So men are supposed to rule over their wives as a "punishment".

That's how I see the story and I think it's totally outrageous and unfair. Especially considering that Adam ate the forbidden fruit too.

There's also tons of male-chauvinism that continues on well into the rest of the Bible.

I just personally don't see where a supposedly all-wise benevolent God would behave that way as a "solution" to the problem at hand.

To me it makes far more sense to just realize that it's made up stories by male-chauvinistic men and no God ever had anything to do with it.

When I say that the "biblical God" is a male chauvinist pig, I'm not referring to an actual deity. I'm referring to a mythical fictitious "god" not unlike Zeus.

If I were to say that Zeus was a male-chauvinistic pig you probably wouldn't think twice about it because you too recognize Zeus as a fictional God in Greek mythology.

But you need to understand that I view Hebrew mythology in precisely the same way.


~~~~

You appear to be worried about your eternal fate.

I'm not worried about mine because I know that I'm a good person.

Any God who would cast me into a place of eternal damnation would necessarily have to be a demon. Because there is not righteous reason to do such a nasty thing to me.

That's why I know that these kinds of fables have to be false.

Or like I say, if there's any truth to them at all they have been grossly misunderstood. There is no reason for Jesus or anyone to be casting me into a place of eternal damnation. So if there is any truth to these stores there must be divine loopholes for non-believers, because I most certainly don't believe in these fables, yet I'm not an evil person.

Non-belief does not make a person evil and that's the bottom line right there.

That's the dead give-a-way that reveals that these religions have to either be outright false, or grossly misunderstood.

~~~~

So please believe whatever feels right for you. But constantly preaching to other people that they need to believe in the Hebrew religion lest they be cast into hell is just uncalled for paranoia.

Non-believers are not automatically evil people deserving of hell fire. That's just utter nonsense.

[Burninglight]

Divine Insight:

Okay, I am really seeing that you are a very strong willed person. I never met anyone like that. I recognized your anointing, IMHO, it is inspired by the god of this world.

I have to repent if I gave you the impression that I don't love the God of the OT. I do for it is He that led me to Jesus. I am not worried about my salvation, but I am, WADR, about yours. It is written that "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of truth"

I am sad that you have such a morbid view of God, and I don't help getting you to see it any differently. I am sad, because I feel like I only cause you to dig in your heels, because I lack debating skills to match that of yours. I just see myself as unpofitable to God.

I believe you are a very nice person and that you are sincere and no hypocrite, but I believe you are sincerely wrong. I cannot deny my experiences with Jesus. He is the bread of life to me.

[JohnPaul]

Divine Insight wrote:

For me the bible is riddled with male-chauvinism from the beginning Genesis onward. He creates Eve as an after-thought from a rib of Adam. Eve is the one who supposedly leads Adam into the fall from grace. God curses Eve with sorrowful childbirth for her supposed disobedience (even though she had confessed to having been innocently beguiled by that nasty serpent). God also punishes her by demanding that she must forever be the servant to her husband and always do his bidding and strive to serve his desire. And that was part of Eve's "punishment".

It is true that Eve was created as an afterthought, but Eve was not the first woman. The first woman was created in Genesis 1:27 at the same time as Adam and in the same manner, on the sixth day of creation, and intended by God to share dominion of the earth equally with Adam. What happened to her? Eve was not created until later, in Genesis 2:22 in the Garden of Eden from Adam's rib, and intended specifically to serve as Adam's helpmate.

Could it be that the committee of (male) bishops who selected and compiled the Bible in the 4th century did not like the story of an independent woman equal to Adam and banished her from the Bible in favor of the docile Eve?

If you have not already done so, I suggest you google Lilith, the first wife of Adam and investigate her story. There are many variations of the legend, but basically Lilith left Adam because he was a domineering SOB, and with God's covert help, excaped from Eden. She is now free and immortal, and lives as a demon rather than return to serve Adam.

[Divine Insight]

I am not worried about my salvation, but I am, WADR, about yours.

You don't trust Jesus and the God of Abraham to do what's right?

Why should you worry about the salvation of someone else? If they are cast into a hell fire and God is just, then why should you worry about that? After all, if it was a just action then it was totally justified and the person being cast into the hell fire obviously must be deserving of their fate.

The only reason you could possibly "worry" about my salvation is if you believe that I could somehow be "wrongfully" cast into hell. But that would suggest that you don't trust God to be just .

The very idea that you would worry about God casting anyone into a hell fire who isn't absolutely deserving of that fate is a testament that you don't trust God to be just.

It is written that "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of truth"

Well if God is so concerned about people knowing truth, then don't you think it should be up to him to be sure that they have it?

Are you suggesting that God would cast people into hell simply because they had been lied to by a supposed demonic fallen angle?

And you consider that to be "justice"?

I am sad that you have such a morbid view of God, and I don't help getting you to see it any differently. I am sad, because I feel like I only cause you to dig in your heels, because I lack debating skills to match that of yours. I just see myself as unpofitable to God.

Why should God's failures be such a burden on you?

If God is responsible for have inspired the writing of a book that has totally convinced me that it can be nothing more than the superstitious ramblings of male-chauvinistic mortals, then why should you feel that it's entirely on your shoulders to correct God's failure to convince me via his own inspired writings?

You have no clue how many times I have read and re-read the Bible trying extremely hard to give it every possible excuse in the world. Bending over backwards trying to twist it into something that could even be remotely sane, and every time walking away from it convinced that such a task is utterly impossible.

I couldn't believe that the Bible is the word of an all-wise supreme being if my life depended upon it.

At the very best, all I could do is pretend to believe in it with extremely lame effort to avoid eternal damnation in case it somehow "might be true".

But even that would be a blatant pretense. I would know that it would be false belief. God would know that it's false belief. In short if my fate depends on a belief in the Hebrew scriptures then God has sealed my fate because I could never honestly and sincerely believe that such utter nonsense and absurdities came from any all-wise supreme being.

All you could possible do is ask me to be pretentious lie to myself and to God by proclaiming that I believe something that I clearly cannot believe in.

What kind of a God would require that a person lie about what they sincerely and honestly believe in order to get into his heaven.

Supposedly it wouldn't work anyway.

I believe you are a very nice person and that you are sincere and no hypocrite, but I believe you are sincerely wrong. I cannot deny my experiences with Jesus. He is the bread of life to me.

Well, I sincerely belief that the Hebrew fables are false. Jesus (if he existed at all) was merely a mortal man who evidently rejected the teachings of the Old Testament and the God of Abraham, rebelled against the religious clergy of the day by publicly ranting about them being hypocrites, and was finally crucified by those same offended Pharisees. (assuming there is any truth to the stories at all)

I don't believe for one second that he was born of a virgin, or that he raised people from the dead, or that he himself raised from the dead.

I sincerely and honestly cannot believe any of that. Would you have me lie and pretend that I could?

And on top of all that utter nonsense, I'd also have to believe that it was actually God's PLAN to have Jesus crucified to "pay" for the sins of men.

To me that would be an utterly disgusting thing for any supposedly all-wise benevolent God to do. And I've even explained to you why that very story makes no sense because Jesus didn't even die spiritually. But that would have been the wages of sin. So it doesn't even make any sense that he paid for the wages of sin if he was then resurrected and ascended to heaven.

So the fables are even lame.

There's not even sensible as fairy tales. Must less to believed as something a real supreme being would have been associated with.

Here you are worrying yourself sick because a God that you claim is "just" might cast innocent people into hell if you don't save them from the fate that God has planned for them.

Why should you care more about my fate than God himself?

That would suggest that you are compassionately superior to God.

And if God cares about my fate half as much as you claim to care, then he should be able to save me on his own without your help.

After all he's supposed to be omnipotent is he not?

Why should he need your help to save souls?

Evangelism itself is nothing more than a desperate cry from paranoid Christians screaming that the don't trust God to save innocent souls!

It's just utterly ridiculous.

~~~~

By the way, I'm on dial-up and can't watch your youtube video right now. I'll try to catch it later, but if it's just more evangelizing it's just a total waste of time.

All evangelism does is make a huge statement that Christians don't trust their own God to be just and save worthy souls on his own.

How can you not trust a supposedly just God to save worthy souls?

That's an oxymoron right there.

All you're doing is preaching to everyone that your God is so unjust and untrustworthy that even you don't trust him.

[Divine Insight]

Divine Insight wrote:

For me the bible is riddled with male-chauvinism from the beginning Genesis onward. He creates Eve as an after-thought from a rib of Adam. Eve is the one who supposedly leads Adam into the fall from grace. God curses Eve with sorrowful childbirth for her supposed disobedience (even though she had confessed to having been innocently beguiled by that nasty serpent). God also punishes her by demanding that she must forever be the servant to her husband and always do his bidding and strive to serve his desire. And that was part of Eve's "punishment".

It is true that Eve was created as an afterthought, but Eve was not the first woman. The first woman was created in Genesis 1:27 at the same time as Adam and in the same manner, on the sixth day of creation, and intended by God to share dominion of the earth equally with Adam. What happened to her? Eve was not created until later, in Genesis 2:22 in the Garden of Eden from Adam's rib, and intended specifically to serve as Adam's helpmate.

Could it be that the committee of (male) bishops who selected and compiled the Bible in the 4th century did not like the story of an independent woman equal to Adam and banished her from the Bible in favor of the docile Eve?

If you have not already done so, I suggest you google Lilith, the first wife of Adam and investigate her story. There are many variations of the legend, but basically Lilith left Adam because he was a domineering SOB, and with God's covert help, excaped from Eden. She is now free and immortal, and lives as a demon rather than return to serve Adam.

I've heard many different stories about Lilith. But the problem is that this story is not in the Biblical Cannon. It's considered to be mere folklore and legend with no recognized credibility.

Moreover, there's an extreme conflict with the story of Lilith and the story of Eve.

Supposedly Lilith was commanded by God to be subservient to Adam for no apparent reason other than this was God's wishes. And that's what she rebelled about.

However, the story of Eve is quite different. In Eve's case Adam and Eve were seen as equals prior to the fall from grace. It was only after the fall from grace that God "cursed Eve" with the two punishments. One being that she would forever suffer sorrowful conception and childbirth, and the other one being that she would, from that point forward, be ruled over by her husband and serve his desire.

My guess is that the first story of Lilith was concocted first by the male-chauvinistic authors who were trying to create a creation story that places men as having authority over women.

The first story simply said that God commanded it. But the women didn't accept this. They simply couldn't believe that a God would command that women should serve men without giving a good reason for it. So the story failed and Lilith thus rebelled as in legend.

So the men went back to the drawing board and wrote a new concoction about Eve falling from grace and dragging Adam with her. Now God had a reason to condemn Eve to be ruled over by her husband and it stuck.

And that's why we ended up with Adam and Eve instead of Adam and Lilith.

But I personally don't buy into either story. I call these male-chauvinists at their game. They were just creating a male-chauvinistic God to justify their own desire to rule over the women "In God's Name".

That's how I see it.

There is no mention of any Lilith in the KJV of the Bible that I'm aware of. If I'm wrong about that I'd appreciate a verse number where I can read more about this in the Bible. I just now did a search for Lilith on an online KJV Bible and it came back "No Results Found"

[JohnPaul]

Divine Insight wrote:

For me the bible is riddled with male-chauvinism from the beginning Genesis onward. He creates Eve as an after-thought from a rib of Adam. Eve is the one who supposedly leads Adam into the fall from grace. God curses Eve with sorrowful childbirth for her supposed disobedience (even though she had confessed to having been innocently beguiled by that nasty serpent). God also punishes her by demanding that she must forever be the servant to her husband and always do his bidding and strive to serve his desire. And that was part of Eve's "punishment".

It is true that Eve was created as an afterthought, but Eve was not the first woman. The first woman was created in Genesis 1:27 at the same time as Adam and in the same manner, on the sixth day of creation, and intended by God to share dominion of the earth equally with Adam. What happened to her? Eve was not created until later, in Genesis 2:22 in the Garden of Eden from Adam's rib, and intended specifically to serve as Adam's helpmate.

Could it be that the committee of (male) bishops who selected and compiled the Bible in the 4th century did not like the story of an independent woman equal to Adam and banished her from the Bible in favor of the docile Eve?

If you have not already done so, I suggest you google Lilith, the first wife of Adam and investigate her story. There are many variations of the legend, but basically Lilith left Adam because he was a domineering SOB, and with God's covert help, excaped from Eden. She is now free and immortal, and lives as a demon rather than return to serve Adam.

I've heard many different stories about Lilith. But the problem is that this story is not in the Biblical Cannon. It's considered to be mere folklore and legend with no recognized credibility.

Moreover, there's an extreme conflict with the story of Lilith and the story of Eve.

Supposedly Lilith was commanded by God to be subservient to Adam for no apparent reason other than this was God's wishes. And that's what she rebelled about.

However, the story of Eve is quite different. In Eve's case Adam and Eve were seen as equals prior to the fall from grace. It was only after the fall from grace that God "cursed Eve" with the two punishments. One being that she would forever suffer sorrowful conception and childbirth, and the other one being that she would, from that point forward, be ruled over by her husband and serve his desire.

My guess is that the first story of Lilith was concocted first by the male-chauvinistic authors who were trying to create a creation story that places men as having authority over women.

The first story simply said that God commanded it. But the women didn't accept this. They simply couldn't believe that a God would command that women should serve men without giving a good reason for it. So the story failed and Lilith thus rebelled as in legend.

So the men went back to the drawing board and wrote a new concoction about Eve falling from grace and dragging Adam with her. Now God had a reason to condemn Eve to be ruled over by her husband and it stuck.

And that's why we ended up with Adam and Eve instead of Adam and Lilith.

But I personally don't buy into either story. I call these male-chauvinists at their game. They were just creating a male-chauvinistic God to justify their own desire to rule over the women "In God's Name".

That's how I see it.

There is no mention of any Lilith in the KJV of the Bible that I'm aware of. If I'm wrong about that I'd appreciate a verse number where I can read more about this in the Bible. I just now did a search for Lilith on an online KJV Bible and it came back "No Results Found"

I agree that the story of Lilith does not occur in the Bible, but the two very different accounts of the creation of the first woman in Genesis 1 and again in Genesis 2 very strongly suggest it. I believe the only occurence of the name Lilith or Lilit is in Isaiah where it refers to a class of minor Babylonian female demons. Isaiah uses it to poetically describe the desolation he wishes on Babylon. Isaiah does not use it to refer to Lilith as the first wife of Adam, but her name probably was later derived from it when she was demonized in Jewish mysticism and folklore.

I have never heard the version where Lilith was commanded by God to submit to Adam. On the contrary, it was Adam who demanded that she submit, and God seems to have at least subtly and covertly supported Lilith by giving her his "ineffable name" to use as a Word of Power to escape from Eden. This Word of Power was not shared with Adam. Lilith was later demonized in Jewish folklore, of course, but even there subtle hints can be found in some variations of the legend that suggest God may have covertly supported her.

Lilith is used as a symbol by several feminist groups because she was a strong woman who rebelled against male domination. There is a slick Jewish feminist magazine called "Lilith."

I first became interested in Lilith several years ago when I took an evening class in Literature and was assigned to write a poem. While searching for a subject for my great masterpiece, I discovered the story of Lilith and became fascinated by her.

P.S. Depending on what version of the Bible you are using, the name Lilith or Lilit in Isaiah may be translated as "screech owl" or "night demon."

Wildcats shall meet with hyenas,
goat-demons shall call to each other;
there too Lilith shall repose,
and find a place to rest.

-Isaiah 34:14, New Revised Standard