Did Allah start Christianty?

[Burninglight]

Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.

The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "You said you don't know why someone (Muslim men) would do that crime to a Muslim woman. Well it happens a lot. You should investigate. Jesus said a tree is know by it's fruit. Even though it is not written in the Qur'an, we know a tree by its fruit. a good tree can't bear bad fruit nor can a bad tree bear goode fruit. Islam is as it does and we know it by its fruit. We hear only the good you say but what we see and witness is another story."

ANSWER: Murder, rape, adultery, suicide, robbery happens a lot too, what's the point?, the fruit belongs to that tree, how does this crime belong to Islam?? This is correct the true Islam cannot be bad hence the reason why it opposes such a crime. 

You keep saying Islam is as it does, if you believed this you would be a Muslim a long time ago, because you obviously can't see what Islam is about.  What you see and witness is another story however have you looked into Islam? have you learnt about it or  studied it?,have you tried asking Muslims about their religion? or you simply want to judge Islam based on what you see and the actions of others. We all know this would not be a fair. I mean could you imagine me seeing a particular nationality doing something wrong and then never wanting to talk to or know that nationality again based on what I have seen, is this logical? 

[Burninglight]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "You said you don't know why someone (Muslim men) would do that crime to a Muslim woman. Well it happens a lot. You should investigate. Jesus said a tree is know by it's fruit. Even though it is not written in the Qur'an, we know a tree by its fruit. a good tree can't bear bad fruit nor can a bad tree bear goode fruit. Islam is as it does and we know it by its fruit. We hear only the good you say but what we see and witness is another story."

ANSWER: Murder, rape, adultery, suicide, robbery happens a lot too, what's the point?, the fruit belongs to that tree, how does this crime belong to Islam?? This is correct the true Islam cannot be bad hence the reason why it opposes such a crime. 

You keep saying Islam is as it does, if you believed this you would be a Muslim a long time ago, because you obviously can't see what Islam is about.  What you see and witness is another story however have you looked into Islam? have you learnt about it or  studied it?,have you tried asking Muslims about their religion? or you simply want to judge Islam based on what you see and the actions of others. We all know this would not be a fair. I mean could you imagine me seeing a particular nationality doing something wrong and then never wanting to talk to or know that nationality again based on what I have seen, is this logical? 

No, that is not logical, but the point is the koran teaches how men should beat their wives to avoid abuse. That is also not logical. Why not teach them not to beat their wives at all to avoid abuse? Since it teaches how men should beat their wives, we can see the abuse that results from those Koranic Scriptures. Finally, I don't need to ask a Muslim. Most of them know less about their religion than I do!

[Burninglight]

Who says indoctrination is wrong?

The intellect, which is destroyed with indoctrination.

Can you prove that is true? I am sure there are thousands or millions of indoctrinated people who have IQs that would prove you dead wrong.
Since when is intellect contingent on the doctrine one believes about God? You are going to have to do better than that to convince me. IOW, your argument is very weak concerning the non existence of God, but you pack a punch against Islam. I cannot gainsay what you say about Muslim indoctrination.

[Peace]

Peace be unto you all!

No, that is not logical, but the point is the koran teaches how men should beat their wives to avoid abuse. That is also not logical.

It does no such thing. If you would like to learn about our religion, please ask us:

“...Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them...(The Noble Quran, 2:231)"

"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves;and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:128)"

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness,that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity.. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"

[Peace]

Peace be unto you all!

No, that is not logical, but the point is the koran teaches how men should beat their wives to avoid abuse. That is also not logical.

It does no such thing. If you would like to learn about our religion, please ask us:

“...Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them...(The Noble Quran, 2:231)"

"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves;and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:128)"

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness,that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity.. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"

In the Hadith:

“Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

“Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah: "I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face,and do not beat her. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2138)"

Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: “…..So act kindly towards women.� (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)"

Before throwing stones from glass house, study your Biblical text and how it is full of Misogyny.

Why not teach them not to beat their wives at all to avoid abuse?

As I have shown, it does!

Finally, I don't need to ask a Muslim. Most of them know less about their religion than I do!

This made me laugh.

How many Islamic scholars have converted into Christianity and became priests, on the other hand, how many Christian scholars and priests have converted to Islam, let alone also became famous Islamic scholars?

[A Troubled Man]

Can you prove that is true?

Believers prove it true all the time. Just read the posts on these forums, for example.

I am sure there are thousands or millions of indoctrinated people who have IQs that would prove you dead wrong.

IQ's have nothing to do with it.

Since when is intellect contingent on the doctrine one believes about God? You are going to have to do better than that to convince me.

Why would I want to convince you of that when you have convinced me of that?

IOW, your argument is very weak concerning the non existence of God

Arguments for the existence of gods are as invisible as the gods themselves. No one needs an argument for their non-existence when believers can't even come up with one for their existence.

[A Troubled Man]

ANSWER: What do you mean? It's the girls fault she gets acid thrown in her face?

That's exactly what the Muslim men are saying, it's the fault of the woman.

ANSWER: Reality points to a Creator, have you any evidence for this??

No, reality doesn't point to a creator.

ANSWER: I would call it receiving revelations

Call it whatever you want, Muhammad was still a liar and a fraud, he made up everything himself.

You can continue to deny God all you want, but one day will come when you will not be able to do so any longer. Lol 

I don't deny gods, I entertain the claims of indoctrinated believers. I will spit in your Gods face if I ever do meet him considering how violent, egocentric and selfish he is.

Of course, your god is little more than what Muhammad conjured up in his imagination.

[Burninglight]

Can you prove that is true?

Believers prove it true all the time. Just read the posts on these forums, for example.

I am sure there are thousands or millions of indoctrinated people who have IQs that would prove you dead wrong.

IQ's have nothing to do with it.

IQs have nothing to do with intellect? Believers prove it true; how so? I read the post and hear stupid comments all the time, but none of them prove that indoctrination diminishes one's intellect all together. In some cases maybe, but in others it enhances knowledge and wisdom.

Just because God is invisible to the eye doesn't mean He doesn't exists. I could say that unbelief inhibits the intellect as well. For instance, People can't see electricity and they don't even understand it, but that doesn't stop them from turning on the light or knowing that it is there. People have felt the power of God operate in their lives. Just because you haven't doesn't mean it is not real or a delusion!

[Peace]

@A Troubled Man:

Muhammad was still a liar and a fraud, he made up everything himself.

Coming from you, I would think I would be asking for the impossible if I asked you to prove this 'A Troubled Man', seeing that you seem to never cite any of your claims with evidence.

@Burninglight:

but none of them prove that indoctrination diminishes one's intellect all together. In some cases maybe, but in others it enhances knowledge and wisdom.

Let me remind you the definition of 'indoctrination' :

Web definitions:
teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically.
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

I don't think being 'uncritical' when it comes to anything, let alone something lacking evidence and full of errors, is an enhancement of knowledge and wisdom. Quite the opposite in fact.

I could say that unbelief inhibits the intellect as well. For instance, People can't see electricity and they don't even understand it, but that doesn't stop them from turning on the light or knowing that it is there.

I believe unbelief doesn't inhibit intellect, it may show some aspects of a defective intellect if one doesn't arrive at the explanation of God, but it wouldn't inhibit it as such. I believe it would only limit your capability to be open minded and honestly critical. I believe it forces the person in question to blindly disbelieve and when confronted with evidence, push it aside with out proper criticism and be satisfied. It is almost a 'state' of mind.

Your electricity example though is irrelevant. We know for a fact electricity is very real and we can 'see' it, in the literal sense and from experimental results. I do not know what Christians hold as evidence for a creator, scientific arguments will always be refuted and the results of such theories analysed as one wishes. I believe without a 'miracle' or a supernatural event, they really have nothing more than a historically inaccurate text, that does nothing more than provide a sense of warmth when kept near their beds, no offence.

We see the effect indoctrination has on weak minded people, study the life of William Tyndale, or the atrocities committed by the church to scientists and philosophers in medieval England.

[Burninglight]

@A Troubled Man:

Muhammad was still a liar and a fraud, he made up everything himself.

Coming from you, I would think I would be asking for the impossible if I asked you to prove this 'A Troubled Man', seeing that you seem to never cite any of your claims with evidence.

@Burninglight:

but none of them prove that indoctrination diminishes one's intellect all together. In some cases maybe, but in others it enhances knowledge and wisdom.

Let me remind you the definition of 'indoctrination' :

Web definitions:
teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically.
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

I don't think being 'uncritical' when it comes to anything, let alone something lacking evidence and full of errors, is an enhancement of knowledge and wisdom. Quite the opposite in fact.

I could say that unbelief inhibits the intellect as well. For instance, People can't see electricity and they don't even understand it, but that doesn't stop them from turning on the light or knowing that it is there.

I believe unbelief doesn't inhibit intellect, it may show some aspects of a defective intellect if one doesn't arrive at the explanation of God, but it wouldn't inhibit it as such. I believe it would only limit your capability to be open minded and honestly critical. I believe it forces the person in question to blindly disbelieve and when confronted with evidence, push it aside with out proper criticism and be satisfied. It is almost a 'state' of mind.

Your electricity example though is irrelevant. We know for a fact electricity is very real and we can 'see' it, in the literal sense and from experimental results. I do not know what Christians hold as evidence for a creator, scientific arguments will always be refuted and the results of such theories analysed as one wishes. I believe without a 'miracle' or a supernatural event, they really have nothing more than a historically inaccurate text, that does nothing more than provide a sense of warmth when kept near their beds, no offence.

We see the effect indoctrination has on weak minded people, study the life of William Tyndale, or the atrocities committed by the church to scientists and philosophers in medieval England.

Thank you for defining indoctrination. In that case, the Bible is against indoctrination, because the Scriptures says to try the spirit and not to believe every spirit.

Besides even scientists are acknowleging the paranormal such as spirits inhabiting certain locations. Like I said about electricity or the wind you cannot see it, but you can see the results of it. The physical realm is just a manifestation of what goes on in the spiritual realm which is what is really happening. The physical world can deceive you. As you obviously are by it saying God doesn't exist since you can't see or understand Him or spiritual things. You are an unspiritual man; therefore, you could never understand the things of the spirit.

The spiritual world can be a deception as well. An example of this is eastern religions and Islam. Allah is bold enough to admit that he is the "best of deceivers"