Did Allah start Christianty?

[Burninglight]

Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.

The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!

[A Troubled Man]

IQs have nothing to do with intellect?

IQ's have nothing to do with being religiously indoctrinated.

Just because God is invisible to the eye doesn't mean He doesn't exists.

Then, we can say that about anything we conjure from the imagination. Where do you draw the line on that?

I could say that unbelief inhibits the intellect as well. For instance, People can't see electricity and they don't even understand it

Yes we can see electricity, have you never seen a bolt of lightning or electricity arc from one conductor to another? I have seen both.

People have felt the power of God operate in their lives. Just because you haven't doesn't mean it is not real or a delusion!

No, people are indoctrinated to believe they have "felt the power of God".

No, you are not special.

[A Troubled Man]

Besides even scientists are acknowleging the paranormal such as spirits inhabiting certain locations.

That is false, there is no evidence for spirits and scientists know this.

The physical realm is just a manifestation of what goes on in the spiritual realm which is what is really happening.

LOL! Even though the spiritual realm can't be seen and there is no evidence for it's existence, that is what you believe.

You are an unspiritual man; therefore, you could never understand the things of the spirit.

No, you are not special.

[Burninglight]

Besides even scientists are acknowleging the paranormal such as spirits inhabiting certain locations.

That is false, there is no evidence for spirits and scientists know this.

The physical realm is just a manifestation of what goes on in the spiritual realm which is what is really happening.

LOL! Even though the spiritual realm can't be seen and there is no evidence for it's existence, that is what you believe.

You are an unspiritual man; therefore, you could never understand the things of the spirit.

No, you are not special.

Have you ever heard of electro magnetic fields and theories? http://www.liparanormalinvestigators.com/emf.shtml/ The paranormal is under investigation. It is a part of scientific study.
Every one is special friend!

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "No, that is not logical, but the point is the koran teaches how men should beat their wives to avoid abuse. That is also not logical. Why not teach them not to beat their wives at all to avoid abuse? Since it teaches how men should beat their wives, we can see the abuse that results from those Koranic Scriptures. Finally, I don't need to ask a Muslim. Most of them know less about their religion than I do!

ANSWER: Why isn't it logic it's perfectly logical, this is simply not true and you know it, give me one proof apart from that verse in which there is a misunderstanding that encourages one to beat his wife, Islam does not allow abuse against women. There are many proofs for this:

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good.  

(The Noble Quran, 4:19)" 

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.  

(Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

[HaLi8993]

@ A Troubled Man

QUOTE: "That's exactly what the Muslim men are saying, it's the fault of the woman"

ANSWER: Very Disappointing.

QUOTE: "No, reality doesn't point to a creator."

ANSWER: Of course it does! 

QUOTE: "Call it whatever you want, Muhammad was still a liar and a fraud, he made up everything himself."

ANSWER: Ok I will, you have no evidence for this.

QUOTE: "I don't deny gods, I entertain the claims of indoctrinated believers. I will spit in your Gods face if I ever do meet him considering how violent, egocentric and selfish he is. Of course, your god is little more than what Muhammad conjured up in his imagination.

ANSWER: If your going to be this insulting with your posts just forget it, I don't wish to argue with you any longer, your posts are baseless and are simply argumentative.

[Peace]

@Burninglight:

In that case, the Bible is against indoctrination, because the Scriptures says to try the spirit and not to believe every spirit.

Please define for me spirit, as I know in the Christian tradition there is the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of God, the Holy Ghost, the Comforter (Holy Ghost), the Holy Spirit, Spirit (in general) and Angel Gabriel and they all do different things!

For example the Spirit of God 'dwells within a person':

1 Cor. 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God. and that the Spirit of God dwelth in you?"

While the Spirit of Truth is described as 'whom the world cannot receive':

John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of Truth. whom the world cannot receive..."

These are contradicting Spirits.

Besides even scientists are acknowleging the paranormal such as spirits inhabiting certain locations.

Really? so what is a spirit in this case? a dead person? a ghost? Or Angel Gabriel?

Like I said about electricity or the wind you cannot see it, but you can see the results of it.

I partly agree and disagree. I know what you what to say but this example isn't doing you justice. I agree that we can see the result of God in our lives, in creation etc... I disagree that you cannot see electricity.

The physical realm is just a manifestation of what goes on in the spiritual realm which is what is really happening.

I believe God is behind the order and beauty of the universe.

The physical world can deceive you.

Ok, we Muslims believe 'dunya' i.e. 'the world' is a game or a fun pass-time. As described in the Qur'an. So running after its bounties and succumbing to your lower-self's desires will have no end and you will never be satisfied.

As you obviously are by it saying God doesn't exist since you can't see or understand Him or spiritual things.

I totally believe God exists, even if I don't see Him or understand His nature as there is nothing like unto Him so I can not relate. I also believe in Angels and Devils. I want to know the explanation for the contradiction in the roles and definitions of Spirits in the Christian Tradition.

I feel Christians usually tell me that they 'feel' God in that they can feel the 'spirit' as if the 'spirit' is like a small light that bursts into flames when a person is guided. Like a 'feeling' that they experience everyday, an ecstasy that runs through the'r bodies when they remember and reflect on God. This is remarkable as it is almost in our very nature to feel amazing when doing Good deeds and remembering our Creator however it should not be your only reason for belief, or at least you should not try to persuade people that God exists by saying that you 'feel' God and we can't 'feel' him because we don't have the 'Spirit of Truth' within us. How about the young babies that die never having heard of Christianity or being baptized, did they 'feel' the spirit? Do they go to Hell?

It is in fact you who could be very deluded if your relying only on a 'feeling', Satan can beautify for you idols or pagan worship as he did before and all this is based on 'feelings' not reason. Which is why we arrive at the Bible, a text so anonymous, so littered with scientific atrocities, logical absurdities, a book defaming the image of Prophets of God showing them as sinners, showing God (in the OT) as a 'repenter' (just like creation, as if God actually sins, Glory be to God!), showing demoralizing and anti-feminist ideas. I know it hurts to hear someone talk about your Holy Book (something you hold dear) in this way, but this is what I find when I read it our atleast when people try to explain it to me. The very fact that we don't know who wrote it, and that whoever wrote it never SAW Jesus (peace be upon him) is enough for Muslims to reject it. Please show to me God's existence without saying the word 'Spirit' once.

The spiritual world can be a deception as well. An example of this is eastern religions and Islam. Allah is bold enough to admit that he is the "best of deceivers"

Ok now I'm lost! So God is a spirit? then who founded Islam? From my understanding it is the only monotheistic religion of the Eastern religions. The only one that believes in one God, it may even be argued the only one in the WORLD that believers in ONE God without partners, sons, wives, daughters or anything of the like. Glory be to God, the Almighty, the All-Powerful.

As for the 'deceivers' point, I believe you have misunderstood this quality, please go and read about this quality online. He is a 'deceiver' to the unbelievers who believe THEY are 'deceiving' God. Not to the believers, to them, He is Truth.


@HaLi8993

QUOTE: "I don't deny gods, I entertain the claims of indoctrinated believers. I will spit in your Gods face if I ever do meet him considering how violent, egocentric and selfish he is. Of course, your god is little more than what Muhammad conjured up in his imagination.

ANSWER: If your going to be this insulting with your posts just forget it, I don't wish to argue with you any longer, your posts are baseless and are simply argumentative.

Trust me, A Troubled Man has a special place in my heart and created a special appreciation withing my self for 'citing evidence'. lol, but we should still have Patience, we aren't doing this for him, but for whoever is reading this (a friend of mine gave me this advice once ) and those users who wish to present evidence and who are truly here to debate and search for truth.

Hope this has helped!

[A Troubled Man]

Have you ever heard of electro magnetic fields and theories? http://www.liparanormalinvestigators.com/emf.shtml/ The paranormal is under investigation. It is a part of scientific study.

No, that is not science, it is pseudoscience.

[A Troubled Man]

ANSWER: Ok I will, you have no evidence for this.

The evidence rests in the fact that there is no evidence Muhammad talked with an angel, therefore he obviously made it up himself. There is no other explanation.

[Burninglight]

@Burninglight:

In that case, the Bible is against indoctrination, because the Scriptures says to try the spirit and not to believe every spirit.

Please define for me spirit, as I know in the Christian tradition there is the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of God, the Holy Ghost, the Comforter (Holy Ghost), the Holy Spirit, Spirit (in general) and Angel Gabriel and they all do different things!

For example the Spirit of God 'dwells within a person':

1 Cor. 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God. and that the Spirit of God dwelth in you?"

While the Spirit of Truth is described as 'whom the world cannot receive':

John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of Truth. whom the world cannot receive..."

These are contradicting Spirits.

Besides even scientists are acknowleging the paranormal such as spirits inhabiting certain locations.

Really? so what is a spirit in this case? a dead person? a ghost? Or Angel Gabriel?

Like I said about electricity or the wind you cannot see it, but you can see the results of it.

I partly agree and disagree. I know what you what to say but this example isn't doing you justice. I agree that we can see the result of God in our lives, in creation etc... I disagree that you cannot see electricity.

The physical realm is just a manifestation of what goes on in the spiritual realm which is what is really happening.

I believe God is behind the order and beauty of the universe.

The physical world can deceive you.

Ok, we Muslims believe 'dunya' i.e. 'the world' is a game or a fun pass-time. As described in the Qur'an. So running after its bounties and succumbing to your lower-self's desires will have no end and you will never be satisfied.

As you obviously are by it saying God doesn't exist since you can't see or understand Him or spiritual things.

I totally believe God exists, even if I don't see Him or understand His nature as there is nothing like unto Him so I can not relate. I also believe in Angels and Devils. I want to know the explanation for the contradiction in the roles and definitions of Spirits in the Christian Tradition.

I feel Christians usually tell me that they 'feel' God in that they can feel the 'spirit' as if the 'spirit' is like a small light that bursts into flames when a person is guided. Like a 'feeling' that they experience everyday, an ecstasy that runs through the'r bodies when they remember and reflect on God. This is remarkable as it is almost in our very nature to feel amazing when doing Good deeds and remembering our Creator however it should not be your only reason for belief, or at least you should not try to persuade people that God exists by saying that you 'feel' God and we can't 'feel' him because we don't have the 'Spirit of Truth' within us. How about the young babies that die never having heard of Christianity or being baptized, did they 'feel' the spirit? Do they go to Hell?

It is in fact you who could be very deluded if your relying only on a 'feeling', Satan can beautify for you idols or pagan worship as he did before and all this is based on 'feelings' not reason. Which is why we arrive at the Bible, a text so anonymous, so littered with scientific atrocities, logical absurdities, a book defaming the image of Prophets of God showing them as sinners, showing God (in the OT) as a 'repenter' (just like creation, as if God actually sins, Glory be to God!), showing demoralizing and anti-feminist ideas. I know it hurts to hear someone talk about your Holy Book (something you hold dear) in this way, but this is what I find when I read it our atleast when people try to explain it to me. The very fact that we don't know who wrote it, and that whoever wrote it never SAW Jesus (peace be upon him) is enough for Muslims to reject it. Please show to me God's existence without saying the word 'Spirit' once.

The spiritual world can be a deception as well. An example of this is eastern religions and Islam. Allah is bold enough to admit that he is the "best of deceivers"

Ok now I'm lost! So God is a spirit? then who founded Islam? From my understanding it is the only monotheistic religion of the Eastern religions. The only one that believes in one God, it may even be argued the only one in the WORLD that believers in ONE God without partners, sons, wives, daughters or anything of the like. Glory be to God, the Almighty, the All-Powerful.

As for the 'deceivers' point, I believe you have misunderstood this quality, please go and read about this quality online. He is a 'deceiver' to the unbelievers who believe THEY are 'deceiving' God. Not to the believers, to them, He is Truth.


@HaLi8993

QUOTE: "I don't deny gods, I entertain the claims of indoctrinated believers. I will spit in your Gods face if I ever do meet him considering how violent, egocentric and selfish he is. Of course, your god is little more than what Muhammad conjured up in his imagination.

ANSWER: If your going to be this insulting with your posts just forget it, I don't wish to argue with you any longer, your posts are baseless and are simply argumentative.

Trust me, A Troubled Man has a special place in my heart and created a special appreciation withing my self for 'citing evidence'. lol, but we should still have Patience, we aren't doing this for him, but for whoever is reading this (a friend of mine gave me this advice once ) and those users who wish to present evidence and who are truly here to debate and search for truth.

Hope this has helped!

Peace:

Regarding your comment on Spirit and the world cannot receive it and yet people are filled with the spirit. Uhmm, there isn't any contradictions. The world rejects God's Spirit, because the things in this world and its lusts are not of God. The world is in rebellion against God, but individuals can be filled with God's spirit. This has nothing to do with feelings. Our feelings make nice slaves but poor leaders. All angels are ministering spirits. There are evils spirits as well as good spirits. We will know a spirit by its fruit. Every person consists of a spirit, soul and body. I don't fully understand this but we are made in God's image and likeness.

The Bible states that God is "Spirit" and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth. God is Holy; therefore, the Holy Spirit is God and not an angel such as Gabriel. Muhammad and Allah didn't understand the Christian trinity (The father, son and Holy Spirit) The father is Spirit the son is His word and His Spirit is Holy. there are no partners or associates. There is only true one God. Now if Christians believed like Muhammad or Allah did that the trinity consisted of father, mother and son, then there is a problem of association and partnership.

Islam invented the word partner and associate for what they think consistutes Christianity, but they have the association / partnership built into their shahadah. Muslims must confess Muhammad as Allah's slave or they can't be Muslim. They can't just say we believe in Allah the one and only true moon god; whoops, I mean god! Pun intended! I hope this helps. I write here because a cloud of witnesses are watching.

Allah is who he said "the best of deceivers" who is the father of lies in the Bible (Satan). I can see it no other way. Satan is smarter than people and he is the author of Islam, IMHO.

If it were true that Allah fooled people into believing Jesus died then he is the author of Chrisitanity. He created a religion that is stronger than Islam. This is why Islam cannot be the truth! It is like Jesus spoke of Satan casts out Satan and a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. Islam cannnot stand and it won't!

[Burninglight]

Have you ever heard of electro magnetic fields and theories? http://www.liparanormalinvestigators.com/emf.shtml/ The paranormal is under investigation. It is a part of scientific study.

No, that is not science, it is pseudoscience.

You mean pseudoscience like we all came from a rock that produced an organic soup after millions of years of rain that eventually turned into cells, fish and apes and here we are?