Misconceptions about Islam:

[HaLi8993]

There are many misconceptions that exist within the field of Islam one being the topic of women. Unfortunately due to ignorance and lack of knowledge of some people and the ever growing propaganda and Islamaphobia that exist today, including the ever growing media agenda’s that govern the way people think and act, women are deemed as being unequal to men in Islam.

We are all aware that women and men are not alike so I don’t understand when someone makes the statement that Islam should practice equality, what do you mean by equality??? This word – equality – which many thinkers in both the east and the west advocate in various fields of life is a word which is based on deviation and a lack of understanding, especially when it is attributed to the religion to Islam. One of the things that people misunderstand is when they say that “Islam is the religion of equality�. What they should say is that Islam is the religion of justice.

Here we should note that there are some people who speak of equality instead of justice, and this is a mistake. We should not say equality, because equality implies no differentiation between the two. Because of this unjust call for equality, people start to ask, what is the difference between male and female?’ So they made males and females the same. We are all aware that the Male is not like the female.

God says in the Quran:

“And the male is not like the female�[Quran Aal ‘Imraan 3:36] The male is different from the female in many ways, in his strength, in his body, in his toughness and roughness, whereas women are soft and gentle. Women are like men in some aspects and they differ from them in others. Most of the rulings of Islam apply to men and women equally.

In cases where a distinction is made between the sexes, the Muslim regards that as a mercy from God and a sign of His knowledge of His creation, but the arrogant people see it as oppression and injustice, so he stubbornly insists on claiming that men and women are the same. So let him tell us how a man can carry a foetus and breastfeed it? He stubbornly ignores the weakness of women and how they bleed during their monthly period, and he stubbornly refuses to accept reality.

But the Muslim is still at peace with his faith, surrendering to the command of God. “Should not He who has created know? And He is the Most Kind and Courteous (to His slaves), All Aware (of everything)� [Quran al-Mulk 67:14 ]

[Autodidact]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "OK, so, the English qu'ran authorizes husbands to beat their wives. In fact, it directs them to do so. Every translator agrees on this. 

Apparently, your God is so stupid or impotent that He did not think of, or was not capable of, creating a book understandable in every language"

ANSWER: No, Islam is Islam, doesn't matter if it's translated into 1000 different languages, doesn't change the fact that God doesn't authorize such a thing. Never knew the translator agrees to beating ones wife lol.

Well, they all say so. I'm not trying to read their minds, just stating exactly what their text says. Do you deny it?

It's very much understandable, its actually quite simple, if you don't understand a verse you look up it's meaning, Islam is the only religion that has an explanation of each and every verse, one must understand the context in which a verse was revealed. Hence why we cannot go around giving our own interpretation and understanding of the intended meaning of a particular verse.

Well, first I'll just note that if God was real and wanted us to know His meaning, we wouldn't have to look it up anywhere, that is a stupid way to communicate.

So, we look it up, do we, and where do we do that? In a separate Magical Book that explains the confusing qu'ran?

Or do you ask one of thousands of Imams, none of whom agree with each other?

Or do you read one of hundreds of scholars, each with their own opinion?

Wouldn't it have been great if Allah had just prohibited beating your wife, instead of ordering it and then leaving it to men to figure out just how hard to do it? But then, since Allah is nothing but the imaginings of a 6th century desert nomad, it makes sense that He would not.

The Zamakhshari reiterates the same opinion (al-Kash-Shaf Vol. 1, p. 524). Both Imam Baydawi (p. 111), and Al-Tobari (p.92) repeat the same explanation. If we also search Ahkamal-Qur’an (the Ordinances of the Qur’an) by the Imam Shafi’i (Vol. 1, p.211), we read:

"In case of a husband’s ill-treatment [of his spouse], the Qur’an permits reconciliation of the spouses and arbitration, but in the case of the wife it allows scourging her."

At the inception of Islam, we come across a very famous incident which all the Muslim chroniclers record (refer to Imam al-Nawawi: Riyad al-Salihin, "The Orchards of Righteous Men", p. 107-108),

"Umar Ibn al-Khattab came to Muhammad saying, ‘Women have dared to disobey husbands.’ He allowed their husbands to scourge them. Many women approached Muhammad complaining against their husbands because Muhammad received a verse for the Qur’an which commands their husbands to scourge them."

In the Kash-shaf (the revealer) of al-Zamakhshari (Vol. 1, p. 525), we read the following,

"On the authority of Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him), he said: ‘Hang up your scourge in a place where your wife (or wives) can see it.’

Also, on the authority of Asmaa the daughter of Abu Bakr El Sedik:

"I was the fourth wife (among four) of al-Zabayr Ibn al-Awwam. Whenever he became angry at one of us he struck us with a hook rod until it was broken."

This hemistich was composed by al-Zabayr:

"If it were not for her children, I would have hit her."
from here: http://www.666soon.com/status_of_women_in_islam.htm
So we see that the early Muslims endorsed and practiced wife-beating under the authority of their prophet, the caravan-thief pedophile, Muhammad, Islam's model of the ideal man.

"If admonishing and sexual desertion fail to bring forth results and the woman is of a cold and stubborn type, the Qur’an bestows on man the right to straighten her out by way of punishment and beating provided he does not break her bones nor shed blood. Many a wife belongs to this querulous type and requires this sort of punishment to bring her to her senses!""You Ask and Islam Answers" (p. 94 for example), Abdul–latif Mushtahiri

"If a woman is afraid that her husband may turn away from her or detest her, she will hasten to bring understanding and reconciliation. But if the husband is afraid that his wife may rebel against him, he hastens to bring mutual understanding by means of exhortation, then by abandonment of the bed, then by the scourging which deters."
"The Individual Guarantee In the Islamic Law" (p. 63), Ahmad Ahmad, a professor at the college of Law at the University of Qatar

This is all because the husband is the guardian of his wife. That is, she is not a full person, but analogous to a child, someone who needs someone else to be in charge of her.

QUOTE: "It's not a claim, HaLi, it's the definition of the word. That is what the word "beat" means. Look it up in a dictionary if you don't believe me"

ANSWER: Definition of the word?? Start by looking up the definition of the word in Arabic, the language it was revealed in and get back to me, I know what beat means in English, but we are not talking about the English language now are we??

O.K., let's talk about the Arabic word, adribu (root: darraba). We must translate it into English. What does it mean?

Here is an extensive modern Muslim commentary: http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/ ... afaat.html
This learned author knows classic Arabic well, and over and over again uses the word "beat" for this word. Specifically, he says:

Beating is to be done after due admonition and separation in beds and therefore by husbands who have some moral standards and have sufficient control over their sexual passions. Moreover, this beating is not to go on and on...to be effective in its purpose of shaking the wife out of her nasty mood it is important that it should provide an energetic demonstration of the anger, frustration and love of the husband. In other words, it should neither seriously hurt the wife nor reduce it to a set of meaningless motions devoid of emotions.

So we see the ideal Muslim wife-beating: not too hard, not too soft, not too long, not too short. In short, it's a medium beating--bad enough to hurt, but not bad enough to injure.

Sickening.

So when are you planning to give me that evidence that I have been waiting for 4 so long  :-)

I've provided pages of it.

QUOTE: "You provided arguments in Arabic? I missed those. Oh, you quoted the qu'ran translated in English? See your problem there? Think about it. 

The fact is that the qu'ran regards the wife as under the dominion and control of the husband who is commanded to beat her, if necessary, to ensure her obedience That is the Islamic model of marriage. Of course, just as the master is enjoined to treat the slave kindly, the husband is reminded to rule his subject wife kindly, but if she refuses to submit, she should be beaten"

ANSWER: So you understand Arabic do you?? the problem lies here.

Have you any evidence for this??? Commanded to beat her??

Yes, in sura 4:34, where the husband is instructed to beat his wife.

QUOTE: "I'm tired of going around and around. You make no sense. That is simply the definition of the word. What you are saying is that "beat" doesn't mean "beat." When you have to resort to absurdity to defend your religion, you win--you have proven that your religion is absurd. thanks, I had a misconception about that, but you have cleared it right up"

ANSWER: You choose to go round and round, your understanding of a violent beating does not fit the description, after all these explanations I have given you, you still want to call it absurd?? Lol your very welcome!

Beat means beat. Slave means slave.

QUOTE: "I know that "beat" means to strike someone repeatedly and violently"

ANSWER: Yes, it sure does according to the English language.

Exactly. That is what the English word "beat" means.

QUOTE: "The verse from the qu'ran clearly and unambiguously does so, unless you say that words do not mean themselves. 

Don't forget the context, HaLi: Men are superior to women (Or, men have authority over women because God made them superior, OR Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, etc, depending on the translation. So we see that the qu'ran is sexist, and asserts male superiority. Of course, this is false, so as usual we see that the qu'ran is wrong--men are not superior to women. For that reason, men are given authority over women--they are not equal. Have I mentioned how much I hate the qu'ran, by the way? It makes me sick even to discuss such a sexist, oppressive hate screed. 

And of course several hadith mentioning battered women, which draw no remark from the prophet, since he was a wife-beater himself, as well as a pedophile. That's Islam's "ideal man," a pedophile who beats his child-bride. 

Therefore in his farewell address he took care to instruct men exactly how to beat their wives--not too severely. 

Of course, every traditional Muslim scholar and commentator agrees that it is the husband's duty to beat his wife, just not too severely. He should use a small stick, and not break her bones or kill her. 

Would you like me to cite the many scholars who explain this in detail? 

Many modern scholars instruct the wife to treat her husband like a god. 

I'm sorry, I have to take a break; it's too disgusting. I feel nothing but sympathy for Muslim wives."

ANSWER: Yes, I understand what you are trying to say, however there is a huge misunderstanding on your part. Women have rights over their husbands just as wives have right over their husbands:

Apparently your God has trouble making Himself understood, and requires HaLi to do it for Him. Is He an idiot?

 
QURAN: al-Baqarah 2:228

“And they (women) have rights (over their husbands as regards living expenses) similar (to those of their husbands) over them (as regards obedience and respect) to what is reasonable, but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them. And Allaah is All-Mighty, All-Wise�

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to God and to their husbands), and guard in the husband’s absence what God orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity and their husband’s property). 

God this stuff is so sickening. As a woman, how can you stand it? How can you believe this stuff? Men don't excel over women--it's ridiculous.

This superiority is something that God has decreed, and He is not to be questioned about what He does, rather the one who disbelieves in Him should be questioned. It is also because of what the man does, spending on his family and striving to earn a living for them. 

Thank you. YOu have definitely cleared up any misconceptions we may have had about women's role in Islam, in which male superiority is decreed by your God. Why would any woman remain in it?

Your allegations against Islam and your slanderous debate style not to mention your intention to make Islam look like a violent religion isn't going to work, there are no Hadith where the Prophet (peace be upon him) condones such behavior nor any evidence that the Prophet (peace be upon him) beat his wife. You just don't understand the Hadith. Cause you have no knowledge of Islam.

Yes, there are, and they are in this thread.

That's a laugh now it's become a duty to beat your wife?? Lol, I would like to see how you would prove this one, the third option I mentioned mind you should only be a last resort only  if it is likely to have a positive outcome. 

Sura 4:34.

There is no need to feel sympathy towards Muslim women they are content and happy with the religion God has chosen for them. . They are obedient, kind, merciful and love to please their husbands. I feel sympathy for you cause you have no idea, what a shame!

Yes, I'm sure all of the victims of domestic violence, acid scarring, genital mutilation, forced marriage and rape are just thrilled with their situation.

[hERICtic]

Hal,

You are being blatantly dishonest in some of these issues.

Yes, the Quran never uses the word flat, but one does not have to use the actual word to describe a flat surface.

The word "carpet" is used quite a bit.

The Quran never mentions a round earth. Its dishonest to state it refers to a osterich egg. The Quran never states this.

As stated numerous times, the Greeks already knew the earth was round.

Why isnt it a miracle when they realized this?

As for the water barrier...

The Quran states:

He has set free the two seas meeting together. There is a barrier between them. They do not transgress. (Quran, 55:19-20)

He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition. (Quran, 25:53)

Thats all it states. We do not have enough information to conclude what exactly is being refered to.

The fact is, land fits this explanaton perfectly.

You keep repeating that its refering to pycnocline.

Yet the verses in question states they do NOT mix.

I have given you Pliny the Elder and Aristotle which gave indepth descriptions of pycnocline.

You keep repeating that the Quran is more accurate bc it mentions a barrier.

Seriously? This is dishonest. The Greeks gave a complete description of pycncoline without mentioning the word barrier.

Here is the defintion: http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/pycnoclines

Notice the word barrier is not used. According to your logic, it cannot refer to pycnoline since the word barrier is never mentioned.

How absurd is that???

Here are the facts:

The Quran does not give enough information.
It could refer to land. If it does, its not a miracle.
The Quran could be refering to pycnocline.
If it does, the Greeks already knew about it.
Its not a miracle.

But you are missing one key part. The Quran states the barrier cannot be transgressed.

The onus is on you to show this. Give me a science site that states the fresh water and salt water NEVER mix.

You will not find it. Why? Bc the waters eventually do mix. So even if the Quran is refering to pycnoline, the Quran is wrong.

Bottom line, not a miracle no matter how you want to look at it.

As for embrology.

http://www.reocities.com/freethoughtmecca/embryo.html

You claim this is an anti-Islamic site. Perhaps. I see it as a site that actually speaks the truth.

Show me one part you disagree with and why?

As for mountains as pegs.

here is what the Quran states:

Sura 78:7 : And the mountains as pegs?

You stated this was amazing, that no one could have possibly known about this.

Problem: Mountains do not have pegs. Nor do they look like pegs. You are being lied to by Muslim sites.

Then I show you the Bible which states mountains have roots...which is actually a better description and you completly ignore this!

Sura 31:10 : He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you;

Then you claim that due to mountains that earth does not shake. Again, more dishoesty from your websites.

No science site makes such a claim. Why? Because its ridiculous. There are earthquakes all the time in mountain regions!

The very defintion of a peg is to anchor something. If the moutain is the peg, what is it anchoring to the earth?

No science site will ever mention that mountains prevent movement. I have gone to quite a few Muslim apologetic sites and although it sounds quite scientific, its twisting what actually occurs or does not occur.

Bottom line: The earth, regardless of which layer being refered to, still moves with mountains.

As for the lying, frontal lobe...

http://www.uthscsa.edu/opa/issues/new35-16/fMRI.html

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002492.html

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2004/08/09/3915.aspx

And last....

The roof above the earth. Now, I have already given you the verses in the Bible which also claim there is a roof.

All the Quran states is that there is a protective roof. Thats it. It mentions nothing about what it is protecting from.

Instead of acknowledging this, you state the Quran is refering to the ozone layer, etc...

Does the Quran mention anything in reference to this? Nope.

Al it states is that there is a roof that protects.

Al Qur’an 013.002
"Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord."

Here we have the heavens held up by pillars. Let me guess, they're really not pillars, its a metaphor. Right? So why isnt the roof a metaphor. The Bible describes the sky as a roof holds up the rain. Why isnt the Quran refering to this?

All the Quran states, nothing more, is that there is a roof from protection.

Every single miracle so far has either been already known, ambiguous or wrong.

You are being dishonest by adding to the Quran, making simple verses say something they are not claiming. I realize you want the Quran to be miraculous, but its simply not the case.

I asked previously to imagine how the world back then use to be thought of.
Now take the Quran verses you think are miraculous. Simple explanations work perfectly in many of the cases.

I also asked you why is it that the so called miracles in the Quran were never explained UNTIlL modern science entered the picture.

Easy explanation. None were ever read that way. Why? Because their meanings were crystal clear as to what the Quran was stating. It was only after modern science came along, did the apologists start reading back into the Quran, trying to make the Quran appear miraculous.

[HaLi8993]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "Well, they all say so. I'm not trying to read their minds, just stating exactly what their text says. Do you deny it?"

ANSWER: That's where the problem lies, you have no idea about the text, your simply making your own assumptions without any evidence, understanding, reason or logic.

QUOTE: "Well, first I'll just note that if God was real and wanted us to know His meaning, we wouldn't have to look it up anywhere, that is a stupid way to communicate. 

So, we look it up, do we, and where do we do that? In a separate Magical Book that explains the confusing qu'ran? 

Or do you ask one of thousands of Imams, none of whom agree with each other? 

Or do you read one of hundreds of scholars, each with their own opinion? 

Wouldn't it have been great if Allah had just prohibited beating your wife, instead of ordering it and then leaving it to men to figure out just how hard to do it? But then, since Allah is nothing but the imaginings of a 6th century desert nomad, it makes sense that He would not"

ANSWER: In my opinion it is stupid to believe or even suggest that God would allow a man to violently hit his wife, Islam is a whole way of life, hence requires one to study and learn the teachings of God, the Quran is very straight forward if your confused about an issue it's obligatory to seek knowledge regarding it's rulings.

They are called books of tafsir.

Imams do agree with each other provided they are following the true teachings of Islam, however if there is an issue in regards to Islamic Jurisprudence then there is room for differences based on the supportive evidence, this is not to suggest they are wrong rather there is a difference of opinion, in most cases there is proof for both and God willing they are both correct.

Allah has prohibited your understanding of beating ones wife, when one reads and takes into account the numerous Hadith it becomes very clear that you cannot inflict any harm or injury, as Muslims we are aware of this because we study and learn our religion, we are familiar with it's teachings and meanings therefore, for one that has no idea about the religion of Islam this verse is easily misunderstand.

QUOTE: "The Zamakhshari reiterates the same opinion (al-Kash-Shaf Vol. 1, p. 524). Both Imam Baydawi (p. 111), and Al-Tobari (p.92) repeat the same explanation. If we also search Ahkamal-Qur’an (the Ordinances of the Qur’an) by the Imam Shafi’i (Vol. 1, p.211), we read: 

"In case of a husband’s ill-treatment [of his spouse], the Qur’an permits reconciliation of the spouses and arbitration, but in the case of the wife it allows scourging her." 

ANSWER: Have you been visiting your Anti-Islamic websites again, great copy and paste job, can you give me a link to this book by Imam Shafi'i where he states this, I would like to see this myself and read what he said in context, thanks.

QUOTE: "At the inception of Islam, we come across a very famous incident which all the Muslim chroniclers record (refer to Imam al-Nawawi: Riyad al-Salihin, "The Orchards of Righteous Men", p. 107-108), 

"Umar Ibn al-Khattab came to Muhammad saying, ‘Women have dared to disobey husbands.’ He allowed their husbands to scourge them. Many women approached Muhammad complaining against their husbands because Muhammad received a verse for the Qur’an which commands their husbands to scourge them." 

ANSWER: Can you please cite the Hadith or Hadith number so I can have a look, cause it seems to me there is a misunderstanding in regards to this Hadith.

QUOTE: "In the Kash-shaf (the revealer) of al-Zamakhshari (Vol. 1, p. 525), we read the following, 

"On the authority of Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him), he said: ‘Hang up your scourge in a place where your wife (or wives) can see it."

ANSWER: Again I need some references, Hadith number??

QUOTE: "Also, on the authority of Asmaa the daughter of Abu Bakr El Sedik: 

"I was the fourth wife (among four) of al-Zabayr Ibn al-Awwam. Whenever he became angry at one of us he struck us with a hook rod until it was broken." 

This hemistich was composed by al-Zabayr: 

"If it were not for her children, I would have hit her." 
from here: http://www.666soon.com/status_of_women_in_islam.htm"

ANSWER: What is the Hadith number??, this is a typical tactic the haters of Islam employ on many of their websites, they only site a volume number or page number and not the Hadith number, in an attempt to justify their claims, cause if they were to give the Hadith number and the context this is referring to there lies would be exposed, unless you give me some Hadith numbers so I may have a look into this, then you have nothing. 

QUOTE: "So we see that the early Muslims endorsed and practiced wife-beating under the authority of their prophet, the caravan-thief pedophile, Muhammad, Islam's model of the ideal man. 

"If admonishing and sexual desertion fail to bring forth results and the woman is of a cold and stubborn type, the Qur’an bestows on man the right to straighten her out by way of punishment and beating provided he does not break her bones nor shed blood. Many a wife belongs to this querulous type and requires this sort of punishment to bring her to her senses!""You Ask and Islam Answers" (p. 94 for example), Abdul–latif Mushtahiri 

"If a woman is afraid that her husband may turn away from her or detest her, she will hasten to bring understanding and reconciliation. But if the husband is afraid that his wife may rebel against him, he hastens to bring mutual understanding by means of exhortation, then by abandonment of the bed, then by the scourging which deters." 
"The Individual Guarantee In the Islamic Law" (p. 63), Ahmad Ahmad, a professor at the college of Law at the University of Qatar 

This is all because the husband is the guardian of his wife. That is, she is not a full person, but analogous to a child, someone who needs someone else to be in charge of her"

ANSWER: Would you kindly explain to me who Abdul–latif Mushtahiri  and Ahmad Ahmad is?? Never heard of them, so I cannot say much about them as I have no knowledge of their work. 

QUOTE: "O.K., let's talk about the Arabic word, adribu (root: darraba). We must translate it into English. What does it mean? 

Here is an extensive modern Muslim commentary: http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/ ... faat.html 
This learned author knows classic Arabic well, and over and over again uses the word "beat" for this word. Specifically, he says: 

Quote:
Beating is to be done after due admonition and separation in beds and therefore by husbands who have some moral standards and have sufficient control over their sexual passions. Moreover, this beating is not to go on and on...to be effective in its purpose of shaking the wife out of her nasty mood it is important that it should provide an energetic demonstration of the anger, frustration and love of the husband. In other words, it should neither seriously hurt the wife nor reduce it to a set of meaningless motions devoid of emotions.

So we see the ideal Muslim wife-beating: not too hard, not too soft, not too long, not too short. In short, it's a medium beating--bad enough to hurt, but not bad enough to injure. 

Sickening"

ANSWER: We have already acknowledged that the word "beat" is used, I am more concerned with the context and it's meaning, so you answered your own question, there is no mention in your link that a husband can harm his wife so what sort of a beating is this??? Can you point out where it says you can hurt or harm her?

QUOTE: "I've provided pages of it"

ANSWER: You have provided pages of insufficient referencing, still unable to prove that it's a beating that causes any form of injury, but Nice Try!

QUOTE: "Yes, in sura 4:34, where the husband is instructed to beat his wife"

ANSWER: Wrong Again, he is actually told to advice her first. Any sane women who loves her Husband would not go any further with her attitude after the first and second conditions, she would sincerely apologize for her ill behavior, hence she would avoid the third condition altogether. This is in order to save the bonds of marriage and deter marriage separation, if anything goes in a marriage as we are witness today, then there are no boundaries and divorce will be simply prevalent causing many harmful consequences in a society as well as to the family unit including the children.

QUOTE: "Beat means beat. Slave means slave"

ANSWER: So you keep saying without any evidence that it's a violent beating and a slave means the Western understanding of slave.

QUOTE: "Exactly. That is what the English word "beat" means"

ANSWER: Lol, well I sure am glad that the Quran wasn't revealed in the English language. 

QUOTE: "Apparently your God has trouble making Himself understood, and requires HaLi to do it for Him. Is He an idiot?"

ANSWER: Nope, but it seems to be the case with Atheists, cause they seem to think Evolution and natural selection explains the purpose of life, and how they were created lol.

QUOTE: "God this stuff is so sickening. As a woman, how can you stand it? How can you believe this stuff? Men don't excel over women--it's ridiculous"

ANSWER: I love it, cause it makes perfect sense to a believer in God and one who practices Islam.

QUOTE: "Thank you. YOu have definitely cleared up any misconceptions we may have had about women's role in Islam, in which male superiority is decreed by your God. Why would any woman remain in it?"

ANSWER: Your always welcome, thank you for clearing my Misconception about Atheists, you have shown me there attitudes towards Islam and life on a remarkably different level that I could have ever anticipated.

QUOTE: "Yes, there are, and they are in this thread"

ANSWER: You mean the thread that fails to give the reader any Hadith numbers just a volume and page number, why is this do you think??? 

QUOTE: "Sura 4:34"

ANSWER: You haven't proved anything yet, just a copy and paste from an Anti- Islamic website and a link that makes no mention of a violent beating.

QUOTE: "Yes, I'm sure all of the victims of domestic violence, acid scarring, genital mutilation, forced marriage and rape are just thrilled with their situation"

ANSWER: Yes, I would again like to see any sort of evidence that Islam accepts such things, your back to talking about the crimes of others that have nothing to do with the teachings of Islam, Well Done!

[HaLi8993]

@ Herictic

QUOTE: Hal,

You are being blatantly dishonest in some of these issues. 

Yes, the Quran never uses the word flat, but one does not have to use the actual word to describe a flat surface. 

The word "carpet" is used quite a bit. 

The Quran never mentions a round earth. Its dishonest to state it refers to a osterich egg. The Quran never states this. 

As stated numerous times, the Greeks already knew the earth was round. 

Why isnt it a miracle when they realized this? 

ANSWER: Lets say for arguments sake the Greeks  knew the Earth was round, that's fantastic but how does this mean the Quran is wrong??? Yes, but what is the context in which it was mentioned a "carpet" I could say my table is flat as a carpet does that mean I'm talking about the earth being round?? God is talking about the creation of the earth how he spread it out and placed firmly set mountains, valleys, lands and sands in it. As for the ostrich egg, there is evidence that some people refer to when giving this interpretation of this verse, they are not making it up, we respect their opinions and do not make a big deal over this.

QUOTE: " As for the water barrier... 

The Quran states: 

He has set free the two seas meeting together. There is a barrier between them. They do not transgress. (Quran, 55:19-20) 

He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition. (Quran, 25:53) 

Thats all it states. We do not have enough information to conclude what exactly is being refered to. 

The fact is, land fits this explanaton perfectly. 

You keep repeating that its refering to pycnocline. 

Yet the verses in question states they do NOT mix. 

I have given you Pliny the Elder and Aristotle which gave indepth descriptions of pycnocline. 

You keep repeating that the Quran is more accurate bc it mentions a barrier. 

Seriously? This is dishonest. The Greeks gave a complete description of pycncoline without mentioning the word barrier.

Here is the defintion: http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/pycnoclines 

Notice the word barrier is not used. According to your logic, it cannot refer to pycnoline since the word barrier is never mentioned. 

How absurd is that??? 

ANSWER: You are judging the verse as it is, and are failing to accept the fact that we have a book which explained the meaning of the verse, if you are saying that "We do not have enough information to conclude what exactly is being refered to" then according to what you have said we do not have enough Information to conclude that it refers to land because there is no mention of the word land, we know it is something that prevents them from mixing which is a barrier of some sort that is not visible to the naked eye according to the other interpretation this cannot be land, however it can also refer to land because not all places are separate due to  pycncoline hence in this situation the land interpretation would  also be correct.

As for Pliny the Elder and Aristotle I don't recall you giving me a detailed explanation of anything connected with the description of pycncoline, but the study of water and the differences between the two, Can you please post this again. 

I don't see how you could describe a pycncoline without describing a barrier of some sort?? 

As for the link this is the definition, not a description, the link I posted clearly uses the word barrier. Hence according to my logic it perfectly refers to a pycnoline because it is using the word barrier.

QUOTE: "Here are the facts: 

 The Quran does not give enough information. 
It could refer to land. If it does, its not a miracle. 
The Quran could be refering to pycnocline. 
If it does, the Greeks already knew about it. 
Its not a miracle. 

But you are missing one key part. The Quran states the barrier cannot be transgressed. 

The onus is on you to show this. Give me a science site that states the fresh water and salt water NEVER mix. 

You will not find it. Why? Bc the waters eventually do mix. So even if the Quran is refering to pycnoline, the Quran is wrong.

Bottom line, not a miracle no matter how you want to look at it."

ANSWER: The Quran is very clear:

1) The two seas meet
2) There is a barrier between them (not visible to the eye/land)
3) They do not transgress

Where is the evidence that the Greeks knew about pycnocline??

It's the seas that cannot transgress not the barrier, I'm not the one making this claim, so show me according to your understanding how the two seas meet and mix. 

Can you show me some evidence that suggest the seas eventually mix???

QUOTE: "As for embrology. 

http://www.reocities.com/freethoughtmecca/embryo.html 

You claim this is an anti-Islamic site. Perhaps. I see it as a site that actually speaks the truth. 

Show me one part you disagree with and why?"

ANSWER: The question is what do I agree with this website, lol

QUOTE: "As for mountains as pegs. 

here is what the Quran states: 

Sura 78:7 : And the mountains as pegs? 

You stated this was amazing, that no one could have possibly known about this. 

Problem: Mountains do not have pegs. Nor do they look like pegs. You are being lied to by Muslim sites. 

Then I show you the Bible which states mountains have roots...which is actually a better description and you completly ignore this! 

Sura 31:10 : He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; 

Then you claim that due to mountains that earth does not shake. Again, more dishoesty from your websites. 

No science site makes such a claim. Why? Because its ridiculous. There are earthquakes all the time in mountain regions! 

The very defintion of a peg is to anchor something. If the moutain is the peg, what is it anchoring to the earth? 

No science site will ever mention that mountains prevent movement. I have gone to quite a few Muslim apologetic sites and although it sounds quite scientific, its twisting what actually occurs or does not occur. 

Bottom line: The earth, regardless of which layer being refered to, still moves with mountains"

ANSWER: I never said Mountains have pegs, they act like pegs accurately in preventing movement to the layers that lie beneath the Earth’s crust.

Anatomy of the Earth (1968)" by French paleontologist and geologist. Page 220 of the book desribes mountains as "like pegs" have deep roots embedded in the ground.

http://www.dailynecessary.com/Article_B ... ory_ID=119

As for your bible reference it is clear from the meaning of the verse that it has no connection with or remotely dealing with Mountains acting as a stabilizer for the earth, this is common sense as miners would dig under the ground  in an attempt to find metals hence they would have known about the roots. What is it a better description of?? we are talking about the role of Mountains.

Mountains stabilize and lend weight to the earth, lest it should shake with its water. 

QUOTE: "As for the lying, frontal lobe... 

http://www.uthscsa.edu/opa/issues/new35-16/fMRI.html 

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002492.html 

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2004/08/09/3915.aspx

ANSWER: lol, so what exactly are you suggesting with these links, seems like they are in agreement with what I said.

The frontal part of the brain is responsible for telling lies, is it not??

QUOTE: " And last.... 

The roof above the earth. Now, I have already given you the verses in the Bible which also claim there is a roof. 

All the Quran states is that there is a protective roof. Thats it. It mentions nothing about what it is protecting from. 

Instead of acknowledging this, you state the Quran is refering to the ozone layer, etc... 

Does the Quran mention anything in reference to this? Nope. 

Al it states is that there is a roof that protects. 

Al Qur’an 013.002 
"Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord." 

Here we have the heavens held up by pillars. Let me guess, they're really not pillars, its a metaphor. Right? So why isnt the roof a metaphor. The Bible describes the sky as a roof holds up the rain. Why isnt the Quran refering to this? 

All the Quran states, nothing more, is that there is a roof from protection. 

Every single miracle so far has either been already known, ambiguous or wrong. 

You are being dishonest by adding to the Quran, making simple verses say something they are not claiming. I realize you want the Quran to be miraculous, but its simply not the case. 

I asked previously to imagine how the world back then use to be thought of. 
Now take the Quran verses you think are miraculous. Simple explanations work perfectly in many of the cases. 

I also asked you why is it that the so called miracles in the Quran were never explained UNTIlL modern science entered the picture. 

Easy explanation. None were ever read that way. Why? Because their meanings were crystal clear as to what the Quran was stating. It was only after modern science came along, did the apologists start reading back into the Quran, trying to make the Quran appear miraculous"

ANSWER: The fact that the Quran says "protective roof" means a lot, how would it be possible for people back then to even know that the roof acts as a protective layer??

Quran 13:2 - It isn't a Metaphor at all, this verse mentions the perfect ability and infinite authority of God, since it is He who has raised the heavens without pillars by His permission and order. He, by His leave, order and power, has elevated the heavens high above the earth, distant and far away from reach. 

".....without any pillars that you can see", meaning there are pillars, but you cannot see them, the heaven is like a dome over the earth, meaning, without pillars. He withholds the heaven from falling on the earth except by His permission. It is in  affirmation that there are no pillars. Rather, the heaven is elevated (above the earth) without pillars, as you see. This meaning best affirms God's ability and power.

I don't see why the Quran would need to mention what the bible says??

I have given you examples of the meaning of verses that were not even discovered by science at all at the time, but you choose to reject the interpretations, instead you want to add your own meanings, ignoring the evidence, if you want to judge the Quran based on a few verses you are trying to prove wrong, then that is your choice, the Quran and its teachings are much more than this. And in my opinion if I showed you all the miracles in the Quran you would not believe. 

[A Troubled Man]

I have given you examples of the meaning of verses that were not even discovered by science at all at the time, but you choose to reject the interpretations, instead you want to add your own meanings, ignoring the evidence, if you want to judge the Quran based on a few verses you are trying to prove wrong, then that is your choice, the Quran and its teachings are much more than this. And in my opinion if I showed you all the miracles in the Quran you would not believe. 

Notice the Islamic propagandist completely denies facts and continues to parade their far fetched interpretations of a holy book to be that of a science book, claiming their imaginary victories of alleged miracles.

And, since we don't believe as Hali, we are all wrong.

[Autodidact]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "Well, they all say so. I'm not trying to read their minds, just stating exactly what their text says. Do you deny it?"

ANSWER: That's where the problem lies, you have no idea about the text, your simply making your own assumptions without any evidence, understanding, reason or logic.

Yeah, call me crazy, I assume that words mean their definitions.

QUOTE: "Well, first I'll just note that if God was real and wanted us to know His meaning, we wouldn't have to look it up anywhere, that is a stupid way to communicate. 

So, we look it up, do we, and where do we do that? In a separate Magical Book that explains the confusing qu'ran? 

Or do you ask one of thousands of Imams, none of whom agree with each other? 

Or do you read one of hundreds of scholars, each with their own opinion? 

Wouldn't it have been great if Allah had just prohibited beating your wife, instead of ordering it and then leaving it to men to figure out just how hard to do it? But then, since Allah is nothing but the imaginings of a 6th century desert nomad, it makes sense that He would not"

ANSWER: In my opinion it is stupid to believe or even suggest that God would allow a man to violently hit his wife,

I agree with you there. That's just one of the many ways that we know that Islam is bogus, since Islam teaches that He does.

Islam is a whole way of life, hence requires one to study and learn the teachings of God, the Quran is very straight forward if your confused about an issue it's obligatory to seek knowledge regarding it's rulings.

Yes, it's straightforward, and I'm not confused. It's pretty simple: the husband is the boss. If the wife won't obey him, separate, and if that doesn't work, beat. Where's the confusion?

They are called books of tafsir.

Imams do agree with each other provided they are following the true teachings of Islam, however if there is an issue in regards to Islamic Jurisprudence then there is room for differences based on the supportive evidence, this is not to suggest they are wrong rather there is a difference of opinion, in most cases there is proof for both and God willing they are both correct.

Yes, they agree unless they disagree.

Allah has prohibited your understanding of beating ones wife, when one reads and takes into account the numerous Hadith it becomes very clear that you cannot inflict any harm or injury, as Muslims we are aware of this because we study and learn our religion, we are familiar with it's teachings and meanings therefore, for one that has no idea about the religion of Islam this verse is easily misunderstand.

The numeous hadith that mention beating women without criticism, or the one where Muhammad beat his own child bride?

QUOTE: "The Zamakhshari reiterates the same opinion (al-Kash-Shaf Vol. 1, p. 524). Both Imam Baydawi (p. 111), and Al-Tobari (p.92) repeat the same explanation. If we also search Ahkamal-Qur’an (the Ordinances of the Qur’an) by the Imam Shafi’i (Vol. 1, p.211), we read: 

"In case of a husband’s ill-treatment [of his spouse], the Qur’an permits reconciliation of the spouses and arbitration, but in the case of the wife it allows scourging her."

ANSWER: Have you been visiting your Anti-Islamic websites again, great copy and paste job, can you give me a link to this book by Imam Shafi'i where he states this, I would like to see this myself and read what he said in context, thanks.

There's the quote, no, I don't have a link to the book. Why, do you deny it?
QUOTE: "At the inception of Islam, we come across a very famous incident which all the Muslim chroniclers record (refer to Imam al-Nawawi: Riyad al-Salihin, "The Orchards of Righteous Men", p. 107-108), 

"Umar Ibn al-Khattab came to Muhammad saying, ‘Women have dared to disobey husbands.’ He allowed their husbands to scourge them. Many women approached Muhammad complaining against their husbands because Muhammad received a verse for the Qur’an which commands their husbands to scourge them." 

ANSWER: Can you please cite the Hadith or Hadith number so I can have a look, cause it seems to me there is a misunderstanding in regards to this Hadith.

What, you're not familiar with it? How are you going to clear up my misconceptions?

QUOTE: "In the Kash-shaf (the revealer) of al-Zamakhshari (Vol. 1, p. 525), we read the following, 

"On the authority of Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him), he said: ‘Hang up your scourge in a place where your wife (or wives) can see it."

al-Zamakhshari (Vol. 1, p. 525

ANSWER: Again I need some references, Hadith number??

Read it:

QUOTE: "Also, on the authority of Asmaa the daughter of Abu Bakr El Sedik: 

"I was the fourth wife (among four) of al-Zabayr Ibn al-Awwam. Whenever he became angry at one of us he struck us with a hook rod until it was broken." 

This hemistich was composed by al-Zabayr: 

"If it were not for her children, I would have hit her." 
from here: http://www.666soon.com/status_of_women_in_islam.htm"

Do you deny it?

ANSWER: What is the Hadith number??, this is a typical tactic the haters of Islam employ on many of their websites, they only site a volume number or page number and not the Hadith number, in an attempt to justify their claims, cause if they were to give the Hadith number and the context this is referring to there lies would be exposed, unless you give me some Hadith numbers so I may have a look into this, then you have nothing. 

Says you.

QUOTE: "So we see that the early Muslims endorsed and practiced wife-beating under the authority of their prophet, the caravan-thief pedophile, Muhammad, Islam's model of the ideal man. 

"If admonishing and sexual desertion fail to bring forth results and the woman is of a cold and stubborn type, the Qur’an bestows on man the right to straighten her out by way of punishment and beating provided he does not break her bones nor shed blood. Many a wife belongs to this querulous type and requires this sort of punishment to bring her to her senses!""You Ask and Islam Answers" (p. 94 for example), Abdul–latif Mushtahiri 

"If a woman is afraid that her husband may turn away from her or detest her, she will hasten to bring understanding and reconciliation. But if the husband is afraid that his wife may rebel against him, he hastens to bring mutual understanding by means of exhortation, then by abandonment of the bed, then by the scourging which deters." 
"The Individual Guarantee In the Islamic Law" (p. 63), Ahmad Ahmad, a professor at the college of Law at the University of Qatar 

This is all because the husband is the guardian of his wife. That is, she is not a full person, but analogous to a child, someone who needs someone else to be in charge of her"

ANSWER: Would you kindly explain to me who Abdul–latif Mushtahiri  and Ahmad Ahmad is?? Never heard of them, so I cannot say much about them as I have no knowledge of their work. 

Ahmad Ahmad is a profesor at the college of Law at the university of Qatar.

Abdul–latif Mushtahiri is a contemporary scholar and the author of You Ask and Islam Answers.

QUOTE: "O.K., let's talk about the Arabic word, adribu (root: darraba). We must translate it into English. What does it mean? 

Here is an extensive modern Muslim commentary: http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/ ... faat.html 
This learned author knows classic Arabic well, and over and over again uses the word "beat" for this word. Specifically, he says: 

Quote:
Beating is to be done after due admonition and separation in beds and therefore by husbands who have some moral standards and have sufficient control over their sexual passions. Moreover, this beating is not to go on and on...to be effective in its purpose of shaking the wife out of her nasty mood it is important that it should provide an energetic demonstration of the anger, frustration and love of the husband. In other words, it should neither seriously hurt the wife nor reduce it to a set of meaningless motions devoid of emotions.

So we see the ideal Muslim wife-beating: not too hard, not too soft, not too long, not too short. In short, it's a medium beating--bad enough to hurt, but not bad enough to injure. 

Sickening"

ANSWER: We have already acknowledged that the word "beat" is used, I am more concerned with the context and it's meaning, so you answered your own question, there is no mention in your link that a husband can harm his wife so what sort of a beating is this??? Can you point out where it says you can hurt or harm her?

As I said, it's a medium beating; hard enough to work, but not hard enough to injure. A nice, medium beating. That is what the Arabic word means, and that is why all the translators use the english word "beat" or "scourge."

QUOTE: "I've provided pages of it"

ANSWER: You have provided pages of insufficient referencing, still unable to prove that it's a beating that causes any form of injury, but Nice Try!

NO, it's not supposed to cause injury, just hurt.

QUOTE: "Yes, in sura 4:34, where the husband is instructed to beat his wife"

ANSWER: Wrong Again, he is actually told to advice her first. Any sane women who loves her Husband would not go any further with her attitude after the first and second conditions, she would sincerely apologize for her ill behavior, hence she would avoid the third condition altogether. This is in order to save the bonds of marriage and deter marriage separation, if anything goes in a marriage as we are witness today, then there are no boundaries and divorce will be simply prevalent causing many harmful consequences in a society as well as to the family unit including the children.

Unless she was a human being who happened to disagree and think that she had equal say in family matters.

QUOTE: "Beat means beat. Slave means slave"

ANSWER: So you keep saying without any evidence that it's a violent beating and a slave means the Western understanding of slave.

Oh no, it's the Muslim understanding of slave. The one where you capture non-Muslims in war and well them into lifelong servitude, including sexual servitude. That one. The one where one person owns another as property to be bought and sold. That kind of slavery. Do you deny this?

QUOTE: "Exactly. That is what the English word "beat" means"

ANSWER: Lol, well I sure am glad that the Quran wasn't revealed in the English language. 

Written. The qu'ran wasn't revealed, it was written.

QUOTE: "Apparently your God has trouble making Himself understood, and requires HaLi to do it for Him. Is He an idiot?"

ANSWER: Nope, but it seems to be the case with Atheists, cause they seem to think Evolution and natural selection explains the purpose of life, and how they were created lol.

Why do you hate science?

QUOTE: "God this stuff is so sickening. As a woman, how can you stand it? How can you believe this stuff? Men don't excel over women--it's ridiculous"

ANSWER: I love it, cause it makes perfect sense to a believer in God and one who practices Islam.

Bingo. We're done. You have completely cleared up any misconception I may have had. Thank you. To a believer in Islam, husband as boss, wife-beating and slavery make sense, and evolution is wrong. We're done, nothing more to say. Thank you for clearing up my misconceptions.

QUOTE: "Thank you. YOu have definitely cleared up any misconceptions we may have had about women's role in Islam, in which male superiority is decreed by your God. Why would any woman remain in it?"

ANSWER: Your always welcome, thank you for clearing my Misconception about Atheists, you have shown me there attitudes towards Islam and life on a remarkably different level that I could have ever anticipated.

You are most welcome. Please don't kill me.

QUOTE: "Yes, there are, and they are in this thread"

ANSWER: You mean the thread that fails to give the reader any Hadith numbers just a volume and page number, why is this do you think???

 Yup.

QUOTE: "Sura 4:34"

ANSWER: You haven't proved anything yet, just a copy and paste from an Anti- Islamic website and a link that makes no mention of a violent beating.

You realize that when you talk in oxymorons you reveal just how whacko Islam is, right?

QUOTE: "Yes, I'm sure all of the victims of domestic violence, acid scarring, genital mutilation, forced marriage and rape are just thrilled with their situation"

ANSWER: Yes, I would again like to see any sort of evidence that Islam accepts such things, your back to talking about the crimes of others that have nothing to do with the teachings of Islam, Well Done!

Not others--Muslims. Good, devout Muslims who submit to the will of Allah. Not crimes, perfectly legal under sharia law and in modern Muslim countries. But, as you shared with us, a believer in Islam accepts all of this as God's will, which is why these actions are prevalent throughout the Muslim world.

Well, I think we can wind up this thread, don't you? I think everyone's misconceptions are cleared up. Thank you so much.

[HaLi8993]

@ A Troubled Man

QUOTE: "Notice the Islamic propagandist completely denies facts and continues to parade their far fetched interpretations of a holy book to be that of a science book, claiming their imaginary victories of alleged miracles. 

And, since we don't believe as Hali, we are all wrong."

ANSWER: Notice how A Troubled Man just resorts to character assassination attempts when he doesn't agree to something lol, who ever said that the Quran was a science book??? If you call these facts then I don't know what you would consider falsehood, especially with all the underlying evidence, thats ok completely understand.

[HaLi8993]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "Yeah, call me crazy, I assume that words mean their definitions"

ANSWER: I would call you crazy if I were allowed lol, considering the fact that you don't know the Arabic language nor studied or have learnt about the religion of Islam.

QUOTE: "I agree with you there. That's just one of the many ways that we know that Islam is bogus, since Islam teaches that He does"

ANSWER: Yes, that is why you cannot provide any evidence that it's a violent beating lol.

QUOTE: "Yes, it's straightforward, and I'm not confused. It's pretty simple: the husband is the boss. If the wife won't obey him, separate, and if that doesn't work, beat. Where's the confusion?"

ANSWER: You are actually wrong first he advises her, the confusion is that it's not a violent beating, come on Autodidact I thought you were smarter than this.

QUOTE: "Yes, they agree unless they disagree"

ANSWER: how can they agree and disagree??

QUOTE: "The numeous hadith that mention beating women without criticism, or the one where Muhammad beat his own child bride?"

ANSWER: You mean the Hadith that are taken out of context, or the ones that haven't been sited, or the one that aren't true?

QUOTE: "There's the quote, no, I don't have a link to the book. Why, do you deny it? 

ANSWER: Don't deny the book exists, but I want to  read this in context, so can you advice me how I can go about doing so??

QUOTE: "What, you're not familiar with it? How are you going to clear up my misconceptions?"

ANSWER: Well seeing as there are thousands of Hadith, No. I will gladly clear up your misconception once you post the Hadith in full.

QUOTE: "Read it: 

ANSWER: Yes, I have read it that's why I am
asking for the Hadith number, so where is it then?

QUOTE: "Do you deny it?"

ANSWER: Your link doesn't work, again can you forward the Hadith number, thanks

QUOTE: "Says you"

ANSWER: Seeing as you haven't provided any Hadith numbers then we can conclude you have nothing.

QUOTE: "Ahmad Ahmad is a profesor at the college of Law at the university of Qatar. 

Abdul–latif Mushtahiri is a contemporary scholar and the author of You Ask and Islam Answers"

ANSWER: So how exactly do I find out about Ahmad Ahmad and where can I find the book Abdul–latif Mushtahiri wrote??? so I can check this.

QUOTE: "As I said, it's a medium beating; hard enough to work, but not hard enough to injure. A nice, medium beating. That is what the Arabic word means, and that is why all the translators use the english word "beat" or "scourge.""

ANSWER: If it's not hard enough to injury or harm, then you cannot call it a violent beating can you?? What kind of beating would this be?? Hence what I have been saying all along is that it's a disciplinary action like you would a child a light tap etc.

QUOTE: "NO, it's not supposed to cause injury, just hurt"

ANSWER: If it doesn't cause injury nor can you leave any marks such as bruising, scratches or cause bodily injury than what kind of hurt would such a "beating" be?? Something very minute if anything.

QUOTE: "Unless she was a human being who happened to disagree and think that she had equal say in family matters"

ANSWER: We are all human beings however some times we all overstep the mark of respect, just like any society that has rules and responsibilities so does Islam, who said she has no equal say in the family?? Lol. Men are actually encouraged to consult their wives for advice in the process of decision making.

QUOTE: "Oh no, it's the Muslim understanding of slave. The one where you capture non-Muslims in war and well them into lifelong servitude, including sexual servitude. That one. The one where one person owns another as property to be bought and sold. That kind of slavery. Do you deny this?"

ANSWER: As stated on so many occasions your understanding of the Western understanding of slavery does not apply to Islam, your western slavery where by prisoners of war are put into solitary confinement, rapped, tortured and treated like animals like those still awaiting trial in Guantanamo  Bay and Abu Graib, where they were forced to perform sexual acts, the slavery where they are owned and caged without any representation for a lifetime of misery and mistreatment, the one where they are owned and basically have no say, where by the state can do what they want with them isn't the slavery in Islam, do you deny this?? 

Where in Islam does it say that you can mistreat a prisoner of war, torture, not set them free, or force them into a lifetime of sexual servitude or slavery?? You won't be able to find such a thing because Islam regards slaves as people and treats them with the upmost respect and dignity. Again you are speaking without any sort of evidence nor proof.

QUOTE: "Written. The qu'ran wasn't revealed, it was written"

ANSWER: Nope, the Quran is a revelation from God. 

QUOTE: "Why do you hate science?"

ANSWER: Is that what I said??, I love science because it proves Evolution wrong lol.

QUOTE: "Bingo. We're done. You have completely cleared up any misconception I may have had. Thank you. To a believer in Islam, husband as boss, wife-beating and slavery make sense, and evolution is wrong. We're done, nothing more to say. Thank you for clearing up my misconceptions"

ANSWER: You are welcome! I'm glad it makes sense to you now lol.

QUOTE: "You are most welcome. Please don't kill me"

ANSWER: Nice Try!

QUOTE: " Yup"

ANSWER: Well there we have it folks, just another example how people try and fool others into believing that Islam is a barbaric religion without one trace of supportive evidence. People just following what they are told and accepting things without seeking the truth, just like a bunch of sheep wandering blindly lol,  no Hadith numbers just what he said and she said.

QUOTE: "You realize that when you talk in oxymorons you reveal just how whacko Islam is, right?"

ANSWER:  No, that's your job lol. You do realize that when you  accuse someone in regards to their religion you need to provide supportive evidence right?

QUOTE:   "Not others--Muslims. Good, devout Muslims who submit to the will of Allah. Not crimes, perfectly legal under sharia law and in modern Muslim countries. But, as you shared with us, a believer in Islam accepts all of this as God's will, which is why these actions are prevalent throughout the Muslim world.

Well, I think we can wind up this thread, don't you? I think everyone's misconceptions are cleared up. Thank you so much"

ANSWER: If you can show me where in Islam these things are allowed, I will be the first to accept it, you are very welcome!

[hERICtic]

Hey Hal,

Im going to bow out.

I have given you the quotes by Pliny and Aristotle to show you that they knew about the seperation of the waters. I have given their quotes at least four times and four times you have asked for them four times. Its obvious you arent even reading my posts.

You cannot understand the world "barrier" does not have to be used for one to understand there is a seperation of the waters.

The fact its VISIBLE apparently doesnt even faze you that it cannot be a miracle.

The fact there isnt an actual physical barrier present escapes you.

You have added the word "invisible" to the verses in the Quran regarding the barrier. No such word is present in those verses. All it states is a barrier that can not be crossed.

I have asked for evidence that it could not refer to land, you have not done so.

I have asked you a few times to go to a science site that shows that they do not mix, you have not done so. No science site will tell you that they stay seperate completely.

I gave you websites that show you lying is not in the pre frontal region and you claimed the websites backed up your point of view. Obviously you didnt take your time to read them.

I have asked you to do research away from your Muslim sites, its apparent you havent done so. If you have you would know mountains do not prevent different layers of the earth from movement.

You made a claim that its utterly amazing and no one could possibly know mountians have roots. I provided you evidence from the Bible making that claim and you ignore the fact you made the previous statement.

I asked for evidence as to what the "protective" roof refers to and you have not provided any.

The very concept of a roof is a protective barrier. The Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonians, Greeks, Hebrews all believed there was a solid roof (a barrier) in the sky. You completly ignore this.

Its pointless to continue.

No hard feelings. I realize that you have your beliefs and regardless of the evidence you'll stick to them like all fundamentalists.

Take care.

[HaLi8993]

@ Herictic

QUOTE: "Hey Hal, 

Im going to bow out. 

I have given you the quotes by Pliny and Aristotle to show you that they knew about the seperation of the waters. I have given their quotes at least four times and four times you have asked for them four times. Its obvious you arent even reading my posts"

ANSWER: Herictic, I am reading your posts however I don't see a correlation between your posts and an explaining about the barrier between the two seas.  

QUOTE: "You cannot understand the world "barrier" does not have to be used for one to understand there is a seperation of the waters. 

The fact its VISIBLE apparently doesnt even faze you that it cannot be a miracle. 

The fact there isnt an actual physical barrier present escapes you. 

You have added the word "invisible" to the verses in the Quran regarding the barrier. No such word is present in those verses. All it states is a barrier that can not be crossed"

ANSWER: This is what we are talking about, you say there isn't a barrier and the seas mix and I say there is, so how then can it be possible to explain that the two seas do not intermix without a barrier, the seperation of water could be due to many things, I could say there is a seperation of water if I were to build a wall between fresh water and salt water it doesn't explain anything in my opinion. 

As I have previously proven, I haven't added anything to this verse the actual meaning of the verse was of two opinions, one being land and the other a barrier invisible to the eye.

The fact that one of  the meanings of the verse refers to an invisible barrier simply cannot be ignored especially with all the scientific evidence we currently have. 

QUOTE: "I have asked for evidence that it could not refer to land, you have not done so. 

I have asked you a few times to go to a science site that shows that they do not mix, you have not done so. No science site will tell you that they stay seperate completely"

ANSWER: lol, what do you mean you want evidence that it doesn't refer to land?? Isn't it you that was claiming an explanation of land would fit perfectly with this verse, I have given you many examples of how this barrier exists. 

Would you consider the NASA site to be scientific?? The following quote has been taken from NASA.  Notice how the NASA scientist used the words: separates, barrier:

"This image is a mosaic of two photographs taken by astronauts aboard the International Space Station viewing large internal waves in the Strait of Gibraltar. These subsurface internal waves occur at depths of about 100 m, but appear in the sunglint as giant swells flowing eastward into the Mediterranean Sea. 

The narrow Strait of Gibraltar is the gatekeeper for water exchange between the Atlantic Ocean and Mediterranean Sea. A top layer of warm, relatively fresh water from the Atlantic Ocean flows eastward into the Mediterranean Sea. In return, a lower, colder, saltier layer of water flows westward into the North Atlantic ocean. A density boundary separates the layers at about 100 m depth. 

Like traffic merging on a highway, the water flow is constricted in both directions because it must pass over a shallow submarine barrier, the Camarinal Sill. When large tidal flows enter the Strait, internal waves (waves at the density boundary layer) are set off at the Camarinal Sill as the high tide relaxes. The waves—sometimes with heights up to 100 m — travel eastward. Even though the waves occur at great depth and the height of the waves at the surface is almost nothing, they can be traced in the sunglint because they concentrate the biological films on the water surface, creating slight differences in roughness. 

In this image, the tidal bore creates internal waves (top arrow) that propagate eastward and expand outward into the Mediterranean in a big arc (near bottom). Other features can be traced in the sun’s reflections. Linear and V-shaped patterns (bottom arrow) are wakes of ships, providing evidence for the heavy ship traffic through the narrow waters between Spain and Morocco. 

Water features in the sunglint pattern appear to the astronaut to be extremely transient, visible only briefly (a few seconds) as the spacecraft passes rapidly overhead. Photographs from space of the ocean sunglint pattern are a tool for studying physical oceanographic and atmospheric processes and other phenomena that affect surface roughness."  

http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=4585

QUOTE: "I gave you websites that show you lying is not in the pre frontal region and you claimed the websites backed up your point of view. Obviously you didnt take your time to read them"

ANSWER: lol, this is what your links said:

"The volunteers were asked questions that pertained to the situation, along with unrelated control questions. In all cases, the polygraph and fMRI accurately distinguished truthful responses from deceptive ones. fMRI showed activation in several areas of the brain during the deception process. These areas were located in the FRONTAL (medial inferior and pre-central), temporal (hippocampus and middle temporal), and limbic (anterior and posterior cingulate) lobes"

QUOTE: "I have asked you to do research away from your Muslim sites, its apparent you havent done so. If you have you would know mountains do not prevent different layers of the earth from movement."

ANSWER: So what do you think in your opinion would happen to the earth if it had no firmly set Mountains on it?? The problem is we don't need Muslim sites to believe what our Lord tells us, the Quran is sufficient for us in explaining what would happen to the earth, the Creator of all that exists including the earth knows what will happen to it, hence we believe in what is revealed to us by our Lord and do not question it.

QUOTE: "You made a claim that its utterly amazing and no one could possibly know mountians have roots. I provided you evidence from the Bible making that claim and you ignore the fact you made the previous statement"

ANSWER: I was referring to Mountains having roots that stabilize the earth not Mountains that have roots that are dug in search of metals. If indeed the verse of the bible is correct and has not been corrupted then I have no problem accepting the fact that they knew Mountains had roots. 

QUOTE: "I asked for evidence as to what the "protective" roof refers to and you have not provided any. 

The very concept of a roof is a protective barrier. The Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonians, Greeks, Hebrews all believed there was a solid roof (a barrier) in the sky. You completly ignore this"

ANSWER: Lol, it's pretty self explanatory, we know that the atmosphere protects us from many things, they could also be correct, I'm not going to say anything without seeing any evidence for this, we didn't even discuss this in detail so how do you come to the conclusion I ignore this?

QUOTE: "Its pointless to continue. 

No hard feelings. I realize that you have your beliefs and regardless of the evidence you'll stick to them like all fundamentalists. 

Take care."

ANSWER: I'm sorry you feel like this, no hard feelings taken, I apologize if I have offended you in any way, shape or form, I strongly believe in the religion of Islam to be the true religion of God, and happy to be an Islamic fundamentalist, the only thing I would like to suggest is that you seek the truth with an open mind and heart putting aside any ill feelings, discrimination and prejudice against Islam.

All the best, Hali