Is Yahweh the first Non-Contingent god?

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

The Jewish tradition was the first to posit the notion of a non-contingent God.

It is granted that today many followers of Abrahamic religions view Yahweh to be non-contingent. However, biblical scholarship, archaeology and other scholarly disciplines have shown that originally ancient Israelite was a polytheistic/henotheistic culture, with a deity that formed the world from a preexisting chaotic state (see Genesis 1). This was typical for the major deities of that place and time period.

Questions for debate:

What year, approximately, can it be shown that Jews began to view their god as non-contingent?

Can it be shown that this view of god as non-contingent predates other, similar notions, such as those posited by Greek philosophers (ie. Aristotle)?

[GiddyUp]

[Nothing]*Pop*[/nothing].

[Cathar1950]

I'm a little confused. What's non-contingent mean?

Contingent would mean dependent, relative or relational among other related terms.
While "non-contingent" implies no dependencies it could also mean nothing.
What they should mean is that Yahweh is a necessary existence (which is what is meant by being) if they were using modal logic properly.
Here it looks a lot like some odd form of negative theology where "God" is to have no contingencies whatsoever.

As I wrote earlier, necessary, possible, impossible and actual are all related and as relative terms changing one changes the others.

Modal logic looks at necessity, possibility, impossibility and actuality as a system.
You simply can not have a completely “"non-contingent" deity, god or “God�, while having contingencies, a necessary being could be necessary in a primordial sense, it need not be all of “God� nor should it be as God would be the most related of all and God absoluteness is an abstraction of the whole of God’s relationships and existence which would include all contingencies. God, if God exists, would be all inclusive and in no way would God be outside of time and space; God would be related to all time and space as the purpose of creation would be to enrich the life of God only one individual, person or personality could be God the necessary existence. What ever God might be He is the self-surpassing and surpasses all as all is included in God.

Aristotle equated necessary with eternal which was a mistake.
He even thought he could observe eternity as he mistakenly believed stars and even species were eternal. He would not have been an evolutionist. He shared the Greek bias against change, among other one-sided contraries attributed to the “unmoved mover�.

Aristotle’s unmoved mover is not Yahweh.

It was Anselm that first proposed that “God�, “the One, or the unmoved mover was a necessary individual, existence or being.

If Yahweh were thought of as non-contingent then it wouldn't be Yahweh.

So Yahweh might not have existed? You are suggesting that in some possible worlds Yahweh, the Jewish/Christian God, doesn't exist?

I am stating that according to the Hebrew writings Yahweh existed or was known as El.
So I guess until He made Himself known he didn’t exist in the actual world as Yahweh.
Of course we can play the “possible worlds� game but the question still remains open as Yahweh may or may not be what we might mean by necessary existence.
Yahweh is a god or deity along with others and His nature is still to be determined.
As I pointed out, “I Am� seems to be a poor translation as “I will be� is a better translation and fits well with a self-surpassing deity.
As Anselm proposed the matter in which God might exist and showing that atheist would be wrong in looking for empirical indicators and when atheist ask were God came from they are asking the wrong question about a necessary existence but then again so have theists in their doctrines concerning a classical concept of God. Yet as Hartshorne points out, Anselm’s god was absurd.
My main point is that until the 12th century CE no one really proposed Yahweh to be a non-contingent god, certainly not the Hebrews.
Even if we assumed a non-contingent god he need not be Yahweh, He could have been Baal, El or any number of gods. It is yet to even be established that the so-called Jewish/Christian God is Yahweh at all as it is more Greek then Hebrew.

[Mithrae]

The Jewish tradition was the first to posit the notion of a non-contingent God.

It is granted that today many followers of Abrahamic religions view Yahweh to be non-contingent. However, biblical scholarship, archaeology and other scholarly disciplines have shown that originally ancient Israelite was a polytheistic/henotheistic culture, with a deity that formed the world from a preexisting chaotic state (see Genesis 1). This was typical for the major deities of that place and time period.

Questions for debate:

What year, approximately, can it be shown that Jews began to view their god as non-contingent?

Can it be shown that this view of god as non-contingent predates other, similar notions, such as those posited by Greek philosophers (ie. Aristotle)?

Non-contingent would mean that the deity wasn't created or caused by something else; it wouldn't necessarily mean that there's nothing which the deity didn't create. So although this supposed "pre-existing chaotic state" comes from Genesis 1:2 and not Genesis 1:1 - a questionable interpretation - that still wouldn't suggest that it's speaking of a contingent deity. On the contrary, it says that God was the creator in the beginning, and not that he was ever created.

Seems fairly clear to me that Hebrew scriptures held that notion before Greek philosophers did, though Greek philosophers obviously expressed it more clearly. But Indian scriptures might have beat Hebrew scriptures to it, and I wouldn't be surprised if their philosophers discussed it more extensively and clearly than Greek philosophers also


India, 12th century BCE or earlier
They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuṇa, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutm�n.
To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, M�tariśvan.
~~ Rig Veda 1.164.46

Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?
He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,
Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.
~~ Rig Veda 10.129.6-7

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Iran, c. 11th century BCE
The Great Creator (is himself) most mindful of the uttered indications which have been fulfilled beforehand hitherto in the deeds of demon-gods and (good or evil) men, and of those which shall be fulfilled by them hereafter. He Ahura is the discerning arbiter; so shall it be to us as He shall will! Therefore it is that we both, my soul and (the soul) of the mother Kine, (are) making our supplications for the two worlds to Ahura, and with hands stretched out in entreaty, when (we pray to the Great Creator with questions in our doubt; (and He will answer).
~~ Avesta, Yasna 29.4-5

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Israel, c. 8th century BCE or earlier
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
~~ Genesis 1:1

- - - - -

Greece, 6th century BCE
One god is greatest among gods and men, not at all like mortals in body or in thought
~~ Xenophanes, fragment 23

The first mover, then, exists of necessity; and in so far as it exists by necessity, its mode of being is good, and it is in this sense a first principle. For the necessary has all these senses-that which is necessary perforce because it is contrary to the natural impulse, that without which the good is impossible, and that which cannot be otherwise but can exist only in a single way. . . . And life also belongs to God; for the actuality of thought is life, and God is that actuality; and God's self-dependent actuality is life most good and eternal. We say therefore that God is a living being, eternal, most good, so that life and duration continuous and eternal belong to God; for this is God.
~~ Aristotle, Metaphysics 12.7 (4th century)

[Dr.Barre]

What is meant by this phrase?

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

What is meant by this phrase?

That would depend on who is using it, I would imagine. I was under the impression that a god who builds things out of materials he did not create would not qualify as non-contingent. At least, such was the sense of the term I got from EduChris. But if non-contingent just means uncreated, I suppose different conclusions could be drawn.

Non-contingent would mean that the deity wasn't created or caused by something else; it wouldn't necessarily mean that there's nothing which the deity didn't create. So although this supposed "pre-existing chaotic state" comes from Genesis 1:2 and not Genesis 1:1 - a questionable interpretation - that still wouldn't suggest that it's speaking of a contingent deity. On the contrary, it says that God was the creator in the beginning, and not that he was ever created.

So in your view "non-contingent" and "uncreated" are synonyms? Or is there a distinction?

Also, why are you drawing a distinction between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?

I don't think the interpretation is especially questionable, it simply follows a plain reading of the text and would appear to have support from experts in the field.

[Mithrae]

Non-contingent would mean that the deity wasn't created or caused by something else; it wouldn't necessarily mean that there's nothing which the deity didn't create. So although this supposed "pre-existing chaotic state" comes from Genesis 1:2 and not Genesis 1:1 - a questionable interpretation - that still wouldn't suggest that it's speaking of a contingent deity. On the contrary, it says that God was the creator in the beginning, and not that he was ever created.

So in your view "non-contingent" and "uncreated" are synonyms? Or is there a distinction?

Also, why are you drawing a distinction between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?

I don't think the interpretation is especially questionable, it simply follows a plain reading of the text and would appear to have support from experts in the field.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth (which he'd just created) was without form, and void; but the Spirit of God moved across the face of the waters. And God said etc etc.

I don't see any pre-existing chaotic state there. At work, so let me know if I've misremembered the verses.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth (which he'd just created) was without form, and void; but the Spirit of God moved across the face of the waters. And God said etc etc.

I don't see any pre-existing chaotic state there. At work, so let me know if I've misremembered the verses.

NRSV: 1:1 In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, 2 the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

It's describing the state of things at the start of God's creating. The first creative act doesn't come until 1:3.